[AlStrong]

Oooh if only PR had to eat my shoe whenever they said something silly.

[Scott_Arm]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

Oooh if only PR had to eat my shoe whenever they said something silly.

Buying all of those shoes would get way too expensive.

[AlStrong]

No one said the shoe had to start out as new.

Originally Posted by djskribbles

Forza 3 had half the amount of cars though. That's why some are a little skeptical because they even promised improved visuals.
If they can maintain the performance and make it like F3 with 16 cars and improved visuals, that's a pretty big improvement.

They could just have better LOD management/creation. The replays are a moot point to some extent, being limited to 30fps and all, but the worst case scenarios are the start of the race and far-angle camera view in-game. Even then, fitting 16 vehicles such that each take up significant amounts of screen is a rather difficult thing to do. So it'd have to come down to smarter use and displaying of polys rather than necessarily pushing significantly more. I mean, just to take an extreme example, if you're in last place and the 15 cars are lined up down the road, the car in first place doesn't really need a whole lot of polys. And who knows, maybe they have a better occlusion culling scheme for the cars themselves (cars blocking cars).

The bigger concern I would think would be RAM.

[Scott_Arm]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

No one said the shoe had to start out as new.



They could just have better LOD management/creation. The replays are a moot point to some extent, being limited to 30fps and all, but the worst case scenarios are the start of the race and far-angle camera view in-game. Even then, fitting 16 vehicles such that each take up significant amounts of screen is a rather difficult thing to do. So it'd have to come down to smarter use and displaying of polys rather than necessarily pushing significantly more. I mean, just to take an extreme example, if you're in last place and the 15 cars are lined up down the road, the car in first place doesn't really need a whole lot of polys. And who knows, maybe they have a better occlusion culling scheme for the cars themselves (cars blocking cars).

The bigger concern I would think would be RAM.

Or they could just use Lionhead's Mega Mesh, because it lets you display billions of polygons in-game




Disclaimer:
Mega Mesh does not allow you to display billions of polygons in-game.

[dragonelite]

Originally Posted by Scott_Arm

Or they could just use Lionhead's Mega Mesh, because it lets you display billions of polygons in-game


Disclaimer:
Mega Mesh does not allow you to display billions of polygons in-game.

I can already see the headlines on n4g.

Turn10 and Lionhead are sharing tech, forza4 to render a billion polygons a car all in realtime.

[scently]

Who knows, maybe they learnt a thing or two from Bungie's impostor tech.

[Antan]

Originally Posted by scently

Who knows, maybe they learnt a thing or two from Bungie's impostor tech.

Hiphopgamer?!

[scently]

Originally Posted by Antan

Hiphopgamer?!

What do you mean?

[ihamoitc2005]

Originally Posted by (((interference)))

Yea, simple contrast/saturation touch ups in Photoshop show how much better the game would look with a more realistic art style.

Contrast/saturation touch ups in photoshop on a single image may not be translated into video rendering because that requires changing entire lighting equation.

In 3D video rendering a lighting system has to work across a range of situations. The specific contrast/saturation choices you made for this particular image may not work for another image. In fact, you can try this experiment.

1. Record all changes (steps, variables and parameters) you made to this image.
2. Publish what exact steps you made.
3. Select 3 other images from Forza 3 with different setting (location, lighting, objects, etc)
4. Apply the changes to those images using exact same steps, variables and parameters.
5. Publish before and after for all images for us to see.

[ihamoitc2005]

Originally Posted by dragonelite

I believe this was the video showing it

What brand is the wheel. I cannot believe that Forza 3 (60fps) has that much input lag unless there is a wheel problem. I played this game at my friend's house last year and do not remember so much lag.

[(((interference)))]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

They could just have better LOD management/creation. The replays are a moot point to some extent, being limited to 30fps and all, but the worst case scenarios are the start of the race and far-angle camera view in-game. Even then, fitting 16 vehicles such that each take up significant amounts of screen is a rather difficult thing to do. So it'd have to come down to smarter use and displaying of polys rather than necessarily pushing significantly more. I mean, just to take an extreme example, if you're in last place and the 15 cars are lined up down the road, the car in first place doesn't really need a whole lot of polys. And who knows, maybe they have a better occlusion culling scheme for the cars themselves (cars blocking cars).

The bigger concern I would think would be RAM.

You would think that they would have cars as occluders by now - the benefits would be pretty huge for a racing game - does GT5 do this?

RAM is an issue, but if GT5 can fit 16 cars in memory along with a 1080plite 2xMSAA framebuffer, keeping in mind the memory advantage the 360 has Forza should have no problem doing the same at 720p 2xMSAA

Originally Posted by ihamoitc2005

Contrast/saturation touch ups in photoshop on a single image may not be translated into video rendering because that requires changing entire lighting equation.

In 3D video rendering a lighting system has to work across a range of situations. The specific contrast/saturation choices you made for this particular image may not work for another image. In fact, you can try this experiment.

1. Record all changes (steps, variables and parameters) you made to this image.
2. Publish what exact steps you made.
3. Select 3 other images from Forza 3 with different setting (location, lighting, objects, etc)
4. Apply the changes to those images using exact same steps, variables and parameters.
5. Publish before and after for all images for us to see.

Yes, I realise this - my point was that the biggest problem with the game's graphics was not model detail, surface reflections etc. but the lighting scheme.

[AlStrong]

Originally Posted by (((interference)))

RAM is an issue, but if GT5 can fit 16 cars in memory along with a 1080plite 2xMSAA framebuffer, keeping in mind the memory advantage the 360 has Forza should have no problem doing the same at 720p 2xMSAA

Perhaps, but one problem is that we don't know what the memory layout was for Forza 3 or how streaming factored into the buffers for level loading. Blindly comparing one game to another on a different system isn't going to help. You haven't even considered the differences in environment detail or impacts on streaming, both of which will have been approached quite differently between platforms, not to mention being different developers altogether. Car asset quality is another variable that just muddies the comparison further and needlessly. Have you considered different RAM allocations for individual car textures, models and LODs? There's obviously a difference between Forza and GT assets. Custom textures/decals? Differences in sound files?

[(((interference)))]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

Perhaps, but one problem is that we don't know what the memory layout was for Forza 3 or how streaming factored into the buffers for level loading. Blindly comparing one game to another on a different system isn't going to help. You haven't even considered the differences in environment detail or impacts on streaming, both of which will have been approached quite differently between platforms, not to mention being different developers altogether. Car asset quality is another variable that just muddies the comparison further and needlessly. Have you considered different RAM allocations for individual car textures, models and LODs? There's obviously a difference between Forza and GT assets. Custom textures/decals? Differences in sound files?

Well, Forza 3 used level streaming - it was in one of their GDC/Siggraph presentations. I'm not sure whether GT5 does.

With car asset quality, GT5s gameplay LOD models are higher poly that F3s (40-50k from the polygon thread). They already are using 6 LOD models per car for F3 ranging from 2500 - 170,000+ (for the showroom/photomode models). And even LOD0 is loaded in RAM for the pre race animation.

So it would seem that GT5 is using more memory for car models. But perhaps the decals even out the memory usage?.

But it does seem that GT5 would have a harder time running with 16 cars, with less available RAM and higher polycounts per car.
However, perhaps tiling causes problems for 360 racers as essentially you have to process any geometry bisected by a tile twice, correct? Which would happen quite often in a racing game

[AlStrong]

So why exactly are we comparing the two? There's clearly already a difference in art focus, so just comparing # of cars & memory becomes dubious.

[(((interference)))]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

So why exactly are we comparing the two? There's clearly already a difference in art focus, so just comparing # of cars & memory becomes dubious.

What do you mean by diffence in art focus?

I'm just saying that if GT5 can have 16 cars in game with more triangles per car and running at higher resolutions then Forza should be able to do the same given the memory and geometry processing advantages of the 360.

Does that not make sense?

[Nesh]

Originally Posted by (((interference)))

What do you mean by diffence in art focus?

I'm just saying that if GT5 can have 16 cars in game with more triangles per car and running at higher resolutions then Forza should be able to do the same given the memory and geometry processing advantages of the 360.

Does that not make sense?

I agree. its pretty much feasible. Turn10 may have less constraints, and they dont even have to redesign all the models they had for F3 with higher polygon models. With their targeted resolution and AA they have more resources available than what PD had. Only the tracks are guaranteed to have more geometry than GT5's. There are more effects than can fill the screen and if PD did it I dont see why not Turn10?

What does PS3 have or GT do that prevent the 360 from rendering 16 cars in F4? Especially when GT5 also targeted higher resolution, AA and other effetcs which made 16 cars on track even harder to implement than a 720p 2xMSAA racing game??

[AlStrong]

The point is that you folks don't know what Turn 10's RAM budget was for Forza 3. You're basically saying that they left around free RAM for 8 extra cars. So of course they can just add double the number of cars because some other game could do it on a different system, right? It's a leap in logic with no true correlation even if the individual arguments are logically sound given what we know about the PS3.

Yes, the PS3 has an inherent memory disadvantage.
Yes, the PS3 doesn't have the edram framebuffer memory savings.
Yes, the cars in Forza 3 aren't as high poly as the premium cars in GT5.
Yes, the environments in Forza 3 are higher fidelity than those in GT5.
Engine differences?

That doesn't mean much if Turn10 was already close to using all the memory in Forza 3 for other aspects of the engine. Just simply saying, well, GT5 could be done with 16 cars, IF you ignore all the other differences in the engine and features, then they are DIRECTLY comparable and thus Turn10 should be able to jack up the number of cars very easily!

Is any of that making sense to you? What point is there again in bringing up GT5? :s

What does PS3 have or GT do that prevent the 360 from rendering 16 cars in F4? Especially when GT5 also targeted higher resolution, AA and other effetcs which made 16 cars on track even harder to implement than a 720p 2xMSAA racing game??

Well, I think the better questions should be, what did Turn10 do in FM3 that prevented them from implementing 16 cars in the first place? And how are they managing it now? How is Turn10 going to maintain their rock solid 60fps? Adding more cars to the rendering pipe and such.

Originally Posted by (((interference)))

What do you mean by diffence in art focus?

Focusing on environments vs car fidelity.


-------------
Anyways, I'm done trying to argue why it's a bit of a naive comparison. The only decent comparison ought to be FM3 -> FM4 evolution, if only because it's the same developers and the same system.

[Nesh]

Dont kill me!!!!
Well you may know better. You ve got a point

[rekator]

If I'm remember well, 16 cars in GT5 it's on some tracks and with a few premiums cars? At least on launch, don't retouch it after.

[joker454]

Originally Posted by Nesh

What does PS3 have or GT do that prevent the 360 from rendering 16 cars in F4? Especially when GT5 also targeted higher resolution, AA and other effetcs which made 16 cars on track even harder to implement than a 720p 2xMSAA racing game??

Well remember that F3 was a consistently 60fps game, GT5 is "sort of" a 60fps game, it tears and drops frame rate frequently even when it's just standard cars on screen. So comparing the two isn't so simple. If F4 wants to go with variable frame rate like GT5 does then it's much easier to do what you are asking for, but if their priority is to have F4 be consistently at 60fps like F3 was then it will be more of a challenge.

[KKRT]

Originally Posted by rekator

If I'm remember well, 16 cars in GT5 it's on some tracks and with a few premiums cars? At least on launch, don't retouch it after.

16 premiums on every track. Just events in GT Life arent designed always with 16 cars in mind.

I dont get hate for GT 5 tracks. Yup some are ugly [Deep Forest or Laguna Seca], but Nurburgring, Madrit, London or Suzuka are just beautiful, especially 24h version of Nurburgring with all tents, people, flags and cars.

[-tkf-]

Originally Posted by (((interference)))

What do you mean by diffence in art focus?

I'm just saying that if GT5 can have 16 cars in game with more triangles per car and running at higher resolutions then Forza should be able to do the same given the memory and geometry processing advantages of the 360.

Does that not make sense?

How do you know that the 360 has an advantage in handling higher polygon cars in a game like GT5?
Maybe it´s got nothing todo with just memory limits but also simple CPU power?

GT5 was obviously created 100% with the PS3 as target so it should be able to get the best out of it´s architecture (and of course not be able to get around it´s weakness)

[mrcorbo]

Originally Posted by AlStrong

The only decent comparison ought to be FM3 -> FM4 evolution, if only because it's the same developers and the same system.

More useful discussion would probably come of that, yes, if that is your goal. I'd imagine some members would find that discussion less interesting, though.

I really hope that they are making sure to put as much focus in improving the quality of their simulation as they are to adding features and polishing the graphics. If they are class-leading in their real physics/fake physics ratio I can forgive deficiencies in other areas.

Edit: And they need more wheel options, too. I actually don't mind the MS wheel itself, but the pedals are horrible.

[kagemaru]

Originally Posted by mrcorbo

More useful discussion would probably come of that, yes, if that is your goal. I'd imagine some members would find that discussion less interesting, though.

Personally I think the evolution of the tech within a series is much more interesting than the pissing contests that pop up everywhere.

Lessons learned, new techniques implemented, changes in the pipeline, etc. give a far more interesting view of how a series evolves.

[scently]

Originally Posted by kagemaru

Personally I think the evolution of the tech within a series is much more interesting than the pissing contests that pop up everywhere.

Lessons learned, new techniques implemented, changes in the pipeline, etc. give a far more interesting view of how a series evolves.

Indeed. For me, this should be the only kind of comparison to be made. I have never seen the point of comparing two games, especially when they are on different platforms, even more so when we have no idea what went into producing those games and the compromises/breakthroughs that the developers make during the course of development/production.