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Old 31-Mar-2011, 11:15   #26
jeff_rigby
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonabbey View Post
Why should Sony rewrite anything to use Cairo? The XMB, for pete's sake? They've got a working, efficient system.

Cairo is a decent basic rendering API, but Sony already has rendering APIs in their system. People have been doing rendering APIs for thirty years, now. The original Macintosh fit a decent rendering API, heck, fit everything into considerably less memory than is built into each SPE on the Cell processor.

If Sony releases a WebKit port to replace the NetFront browser on the PS3, I'll be right with you chanting hallelujah. But I promise you that the existence of Cairo (which is not used in the Chrome WebKit port, fwiw.. Cairo's not the only simple rendering library out there) will not factor into their decision making process as to whether or not to do that.

Calm down with all of this, Jeff. You're just driving yourself (and me, at least) crazy with your speculation, to no useful end.

If you want to know what Sony's going to do with future technical improvements to their system, I recommend you apply for a job with them. Otherwise, relax and wait to see with the rest of us.

Please.
1) "Why should Sony rewrite anything to use Cairo? The XMB, for pete's sake? They've got a working, efficient system." To reduce the size of the Kernel, to add features to the XMB surface like stationary widgets above the XMB, to provide user configurable sub menus, to add HTML5 UIs and more.

2) "Cairo's not the only simple rendering library out there" I'd disagree with the "simple" part and stress that it's a SVG renderer that the industry has accepted as a standard.

IBM article, page 20 of the HTML5 thread
Quote:
A significant design decision in cairo is to support nearly identical output to the greatest extent possible. This consistent output lends itself exceptionally well for GUI toolkit programming, or cross-platform application development. The ability to print a screen at high resolution, and draw on the screen contents with the same drawing library has obvious advantages.

An added benefit to the vector nature of cairo drawing is that vector images tend to be smaller in size. This is because a relatively large amount of information can be encoded in a relatively small equation. The beauty of vector drawing is that the drawing tends to be relatively straightforward. The onus of actually converting the points, lines, and their associated equations into something you can see rests on the drawing library.

As mentioned previously, several graphics toolkits provide bindings to make cairo development even easier. Gtk+ versions newer than 2.8 contain full support for cairo, and cairo has been selected as the strategic drawing system to support future GTK releases. Additionally, toolkits like GNUstep and FLTK are beginning to support cairo for their graphics rendering needs.

Cairo makes perfect sense to select as your drawing API if you plan on doing anything cross-platform that requires low-level control of drawing operations and compositing. And if you want to have the cross-platform capabilities but do not want to draw at a low level, there are some other convenience drawing libraries that sit on top of cairo. Cairo-Clutter

Applications of cairo in the wild:

A large number of influential open source projects have jumped on the cairo bandwagon, and cairo has positioned itself to be a huge player in the Linux graphics space. Some of the more influential projects that are already embracing cairo are:

Gtk+, everyone's favorite cross platform graphics toolkit
Pango, a Free Software library for laying out and rendering text, with emphasis on internationalization
Gnome, a Free Software desktop environment
Mozilla, cross-platform Web browser infrastructure on which Firefox is based
OpenOffice.org, a free software office suite comparable to Microsoft Office
Cairo, Cairo-Pango, Gstreamer (Gstreamer with Cairo bindings coming), Javascript with Cairo bindings, Lua with Cairo bindings and SQLite are a lock for a Webkit port to the PS3 (some already in the PS3)

The questions I and others (Shifty) have had about the lack of application support in the multi-media side of the PS3 and also supported with the Qriocity release for the PS3 that uses open source libraries from 1999 without graphics acceleration (121 megs to play music) are answered only if Sony is waiting for Cairo and other libraries coming with webkit to provide applications for the PS3. Implied in that and desktop remote for the NGP is a rewrite for the XMB to use Cairo.

Are we orphans or is a major rewrite coming, are we in the middle of a rewrite? "re-architected display model and backend based on Cairo" All applications rewritten to use the Cairo graphic library; Home on the PS3, Javascript engine, more coming.

Many PS3 owners have gone negative and assume Sony has abandoned them, a new browser is not coming and Linux removal had no good reason (Sony just likes to be mean). Your IF webkit is coming is an example. Why the IF when in the previous post it's confirmed? When you add to that statements from Sony employees that we would have the ability to view 3-D inside a browser within a year (now 2 months overdue) it's a lock. Cairo and Cairo-webkit just went stable release Jan-Feb 2011.

Or assume that Sony won't rewrite the XMB because it works when the mentioned by Shifty ecosystem wars are coming and Sony MUST have a ecosystem that works together and impresses potential buyers.

I may be over the top because no one else is doing the work to find out if we are orphans (I had doubts too). These questions have no definite answer unless "you work for Sony" and as Shifty said; "There is no Sony published feature timetable.". We can only speculate given the meager information we can gather. Internally I believe there is as the SNAP developer program mentioned Cairo 5 months before a stable release, one month before the HTML5 javascript engine with Cairo bindings was released . Sony Network Application Programming Why was it put on hold? Possibly because they are waiting for the libraries to be included in all Sony networked products or New Cairo GUI toolkits to be written (IBM Quote above).

And Shifty, Lua with Cairo bindings means that the Lua Home client (resources) are ecosystem ready. So with Cairo on the NGP or Android platform, the home client, NGP, PS3, Phone, Tablet or whatever can SVG fit the resources for the Home client to the screen size of the platform. When you add that to the way Home handles Hard Disk cache like SD memory what do you get?

Edit: I don't think anyone is getting it. All applications are getting a rewrite using Cairo. "re-architected display model and backend based on Cairo"
1) Because it's an industry standard
2) It is an ecosystem standard (SVG graphics)
3) It results in more efficient and smaller applications
4) With everything based on Cairo the kernel and memory footprint can be smaller.
5) IP is more easily portable
6) System fonts are going to be Cairo-Pongo
7) Cairo-Gstreamer allows manipulation of Video

The key is webkit, since cairo has to be resident for everything webkit related, which I assume is going to be a big part of the XMB, cairo and Cairo-pongo have to be in the kernel. It does not make sense in a resource limited console to have multiple font engines or bitmap graphics and display libraries in the kernel and memory at the same time.

I'm repeating what I have already provided in an attempt to insure clarity. Beyond this point it's a prove it issue, we might get an announcement at E3 6 weeks from now.

Last edited by jeff_rigby; 04-Apr-2011 at 08:00.
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Old 31-Mar-2011, 12:11   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
The questions I and others (Shifty) have had about the lack of application support in the multi-media side of the PS3 and also supported with the Qriocity release for the PS3 that uses open source libraries from 1999 without graphics acceleration (121 megs to play music) are answered only if Sony is waiting for Cairo and other libraries coming with webkit to provide applications for the PS3.
These libraries aren't needed though. Sony can put together their own vector-based rendering engine. The only thing that's needed is a data protocol to access media. The code on the device that displays that media can be completely proprietary.

Quote:
Or assume that Sony won't rewrite the XMB because it works when the mentioned by Shifty ecosystem wars are coming and Sony MUST have a ecosystem that works together and impresses potential buyers.
But they already have a PS3 system that runs applications and dynamic themes and integrates with their current PSN system. The only thing needed on PS3 for a content ecosystem are suitable apps, which can be written in native C++, or written in a cross-platform high-level language with an engine on PS3 that's called from the existing XMB. There's no need for a complete system frontend update just to add a few more multimedia functions. eg. LoveFilm can be a web based app calling Webkit from XMB, without XMB needing to be Webkit based.

Quote:
I may be over the top because no one else is doing the work to find out if we are orphans.
I'd say that's because they know the difference between worthwhile, productive investigation, and shooting-in-the-dark. A lot of your search for connections isn't providing real connections. There's also a point that hardly anyone else really cares! If PS3 gets a massive XMB update or not, it'll either happen or it won't. Trying to predict that now serves no purpose. If clues suggest a huge update is coming and people get excited, but it never happens, then that's pointless expectation for users. If an update is coming but people don't know about it yet, they'll hear in due course and then get excited. And that'll come from a Sony announcement, or a series of reliable rumours. Spending a year tracing every single connection to try and determine if PS3 will get a high level change (and finding your other stuff on the web you must have spent massive amounts of time on this) isn't considered a very productive use of one's time for many.

Now if you are a developer with a dream of an application that you want running on PS3 and Android phones, and you are trying to guess if a cross-platform system is coming to PS3 so you can get in early and reap the benefits, I can see the idea in trying to guess this. But it's a LOT of work for considerably unconvincing answers, and I doubt any developer would take such a gamble. Especially when Sony's official position is they are producing their own cross-platform engine, and any dev would at this point be thinking maybe of targeting PSS for their cross-device application.

There just doesn't seem any value beyond curiosity in trying to determine what's going on with PS3's system at the moment, hence the complete lack of enthusiasm or contributions from other board members.

Or putting it another way, what happens when you either prove or disprove PS3 is going to get an XMB update?
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Old 02-Apr-2011, 09:33   #28
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Zooming User Interface

Quote:
A ZUI is a type of graphical user interface (GUI). Information elements appear directly on an infinite virtual desktop (usually created using vector graphics), instead of in windows. Users can pan across the virtual surface in two dimensions and zoom into objects of interest. For example, as you zoom into a text object it may be represented as a small dot, then a thumbnail of a page of text, then a full-sized page and finally a magnified view of the page.

ZUIs use zooming as the main metaphor for browsing through hyperlinked or multivariate information. Objects present inside a zoomed page can in turn be zoomed themselves to reveal further detail, allowing for recursive nesting and an arbitrary level of zoom.

Apple's iPhone (premiered June 2007) uses a stylized form of ZUI, in which panning and zooming are performed through a touch interface
sonys high res image enlargement engine gives infinite zoom/ September 9, 2009

Quote:
This pan’n'zoom effect, which gives Playstation products an easy, seamless way to navigate mindbendingly huge images, is part of a new library that’ll be seeding out to developers before too long, though it’s not clear exactly what for. It’s a novel way to navigate a brochure, or a massive, stitched panorama, or even a comic-strip-type storyboard, and the addition zoom-triggered video content gives it a discernible advantage over similar technologies we’ve seen before, but how exactly could you incorporate this into a game?
Industry standard SVG graphics are now with the Cairo library (GT5 had to wait for SVG to be released on the PS3 for it's infinite Zoom car database) possible on the PS3. ps3-firmware-the-real-cause-of-gran-turismo-5s-delay, authors speculation that it was DRM related is most likely wrong. PS3 firmware 3.5 included the HTML5 javascript engine which required Cairo and Cairo bindings.

Cairo was required for the HTML5 javascript engine
is being used by GT5 for the Infinite Zoom picture database of cars
Home's Lua client is now using Cairo (results in a smaller application size, more shader features and resolution/platform independence)

IF the XMB is rewritten to be Cairo based, or any screen having cairo support or "Cairo surface" then any object on the screen or the entire screen can be zoomed or "infinite zoomed". If done properly, this is an example of a killer feature needed by Sony to differentiate it'self in the coming ecosystem wars.

The Netfront browser and the picture viewer includes a similar zoom feature which I believe will with firmware 4.0 be part of all XMB applications and the XMB. Future picture viewer applications and the webkit browser will use the Cairo library rather than including their own SVG routines. Besides Cairo being an industry standard SVG library it will become the PS3s SVG library. "re-architected display model and backend based on Cairo."

The strength of the PS3 Cell SPU is VECTOR calculations as in SVG graphics! "Play up to your strengths."

I'd speculate that internally Sony programmers are really excited about moving to SVG. The email from Geoff specified Cairo...why? He could have left that out which would be the typical Sony no information policy. Researching Cairo features fills in HOW GT5 did the infinite zoom car database and points to speculation on coming PS3 and ecosystem features.

Shifty; this is turning into a Cairo and what it makes possible thread in part because Cairo features are what makes multiple and attractive new features in the XMB possible. The same could be said for Gstreamer and coming multi-media features like open source standards for video and audio conferencing between multiple platforms; that's also I believe coming (Collabora Gstreamer, D-bus website).

Without knowing these libraries are in the PS3 and understanding what they do, any speculation threads touching on the areas these libraries are used would be and were extremely wild .

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Old 02-Apr-2011, 10:07   #29
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Originally Posted by jeff_rigby View Post
IF the XMB is rewritten to be Cairo based, or any screen having cairo support or "Cairo surface" then any object on the screen or the entire screen can be zoomed or "infinite zoomed". If done properly, this is an example of a killer feature needed by Sony to differentiate it'self in the coming ecosystem wars.
And if Sony write a Zoomer app for PS3, that same content can be used in PS3 as is without needing an XMB rewrite.
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Old 02-Apr-2011, 11:30   #30
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Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
And if Sony write a Zoomer app for PS3, that same content can be used in PS3 as is without needing an XMB rewrite.
Yes it can, no change to the XMB is a possible. A Cairo XMB rewrite but looking and feeling exactly the same is, I think, the most probable default XMB. This will result in a smaller kernel and memory usage with all PS3 applications using Cairo. It will also allow an easier implementation for remote desktop between the PS3 and NGP. PS3 to Android remote desktop is less likely but possible with Skia and again easier with Cairo in Android platforms.

Other speculated uses for SVG graphics as in Multiple XMB versions or features that lay in wait for different controllers and the XMB being a "Cairo surface" is also possible and the thrust of this thread. A XMB that looks and feels the same but has zoom ability (known as two finger pinch and expand on Android and iOS) and subsections with HTML5 UI and Cloud computing is also possible.

wireless-keyboard-features-magical-multitouch-trackpad/


Quote:
Behold the future (of keyboards). New from far away lands comes this $69 wireless slim keyboard with “Smart TouchPad.” See that touchpad in the lower right corner there? It’s a multitouch trackpad that switches to a ten-key number pad — like magic!

The multitouch feature registers a series of two- and three-finger presses for scrolling, zooming, window switching, tapping, and more. The entire keyboard is less than 3/4 of an inch thick and includes 18 hotkeys for launching various programs. The wireless USB adapter snaps into the bottom of the keyboard if you want to travel with it. Might make a good keyboard for a Media Center PC or for people who prefer trackpads over mice.
With the above $69.00 wireless USB keyboard with multi-touch keypad/touchpad and a rewritten XMB, a PS3 can be controlled similar to but not quite as easily as a LCD touch screen allows. I believe the XMB will support this and of course a NGP remote desktop two finger touchscreen control of the PS3 XMB.

Edit: This has been available for 2 years, gesh, am I out of the loop. Do a search for wireless multi-touch keyboard and you get multiple results. This is mainly Multi-media PC and iOS driven...gee multi-media, isn't Sony a multi-media company?

This product is a must for Google TV and webkit enabled CE platforms. Firefox is supporting multi-touch.

Last edited by jeff_rigby; 02-Apr-2011 at 14:50.
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