[scently]

Yeah, its all conjecture and guesses at the moment, though I think we would get more info around E3.

[lwill]

Originally Posted by RDGoodla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNSJHafxrA

1:20 ~ 1:35

It seems that Epic only said 4 times performance of "previously avaliable platform"?

However, on Jan.27 (only 1.5 month before ipad 2 release) the ipad2 development kits may be "avaliable" for Epic?


If NGP uses SGX543 MP4 @ 400 MHz (which was reported more than a year ago), it may have 4 times raw performance of ipad2's GPU...?

Most articles about that quote also stated that Mark Rein specifically clarified that iPad2 was not included in that claim.

[onQ]

Originally Posted by lwill

Most articles about that quote also stated that Mark Rein specifically clarified that iPad2 was not included in that claim.

but they added that part in because the ipad 2 wasn't released yet but how are they to know that he wasn't talking about the ipad 2 also when he said it? unless they talked to him after he said it because in the speech that the other guy from Epic gave he didn't say "not including the ipad2"



also he said that the NGP has a "Shader-Based CPU" I don't think I've heard that term before

[Ailuros]

Originally Posted by RDGoodla

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyNSJHafxrA

1:20 ~ 1:35

It seems that Epic only said 4 times performance of "previously avaliable platform"?

It could mean many things, but I'd still like to think that they're comparing handhelds against handhelds or else apples against apples.

However, on Jan.27 (only 1.5 month before ipad 2 release) the ipad2 development kits may be "avaliable" for Epic?

Overanalyzing stuff like that doesn't lead anywhere. What do you want to understand under "available"?

If NGP uses SGX543 MP4 @ 400 MHz (which was reported more than a year ago), it may have 4 times raw performance of ipad2's GPU...?

Look insiders here have already given a few indications how it performs against a C50@280MHz. In some applications the MP4 is by N margin more efficient and that makes sense given a 200MHz frequency and the TBDR advantages. At 400MHz they would have said that it trounces the C50 across the board.

Your agony seems though against an iPad2 in the end. John Carmack said (and I don't see why shouldn't agree with his notion) that NGP will survive even for the next generation of smart-phone designs because of NGPs low level API advantages. So instead of twisting thumbs here NGP will have a good runtime against SoCs like the OMAP5, Apple's "A6" and the likes. With the advent though in late 2012 or early 2013 of the ST Ericsson A9600 it'll be over IMHO.

More important Apple's devices aren't handheld gaming consoles and I haven't seen any >$9 games either in their application store or I've missed something. If SONY really wants to compete against Apple they'll battle them in the smart-phone/tablet field which they apparently already are doing.

[Pressure]

Originally Posted by Ailuros

It could mean many things, but I'd still like to think that they're comparing handhelds against handhelds or else apples against apples.

Overanalyzing stuff like that doesn't lead anywhere. What do you want to understand under "available"?

Look insiders here have already given a few indications how it performs against a C50@280MHz. In some applications the MP4 is by N margin more efficient and that makes sense given a 200MHz frequency and the TBDR advantages. At 400MHz they would have said that it trounces the C50 across the board.

Your agony seems though against an iPad2 in the end. John Carmack said (and I don't see why shouldn't agree with his notion) that NGP will survive even for the next generation of smart-phone designs because of NGPs low level API advantages. So instead of twisting thumbs here NGP will have a good runtime against SoCs like the OMAP5, Apple's "A6" and the likes. With the advent though in late 2012 or early 2013 of the ST Ericsson A9600 it'll be over IMHO.

More important Apple's devices aren't handheld gaming consoles and I haven't seen any >$9 games either in their application store or I've missed something. If SONY really wants to compete against Apple they'll battle them in the smart-phone/tablet field which they apparently already are doing.

Actually, they are gaming devices. Even the iPod Touch is clearly marketed as such.

The hottest selling apps in the App Store are all games and the developers earn millions.

Final Fantasy 3 is currently going for $15.99 and is an improved version over the Nintendo DS game.

[RDGoodla]

Originally Posted by Ailuros

It could mean many things, but I'd still like to think that they're comparing handhelds against handhelds or else apples against apples.

Overanalyzing stuff like that doesn't lead anywhere. What do you want to understand under "available"?

Look insiders here have already given a few indications how it performs against a C50@280MHz. In some applications the MP4 is by N margin more efficient and that makes sense given a 200MHz frequency and the TBDR advantages. At 400MHz they would have said that it trounces the C50 across the board.

Your agony seems though against an iPad2 in the end. John Carmack said (and I don't see why shouldn't agree with his notion) that NGP will survive even for the next generation of smart-phone designs because of NGPs low level API advantages. So instead of twisting thumbs here NGP will have a good runtime against SoCs like the OMAP5, Apple's "A6" and the likes. With the advent though in late 2012 or early 2013 of the ST Ericsson A9600 it'll be over IMHO.

More important Apple's devices aren't handheld gaming consoles and I haven't seen any >$9 games either in their application store or I've missed something. If SONY really wants to compete against Apple they'll battle them in the smart-phone/tablet field which they apparently already are doing.

I understand that many developers have had early kits for a long time, according to the article:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-private-event

However, it is very interesting that the latest kit would have a "final GPU" inside it. What does the term "final GPU" mean?

If NGP uses 28 nm process in Taiwan, SONY may get small amount of 28 nm chips at this time for their latest developmet kits, and this may be accounted for the term "final GPU" (fabricated in 28 nm instead of 40 nm).
So NGP still have the chance to push its GPU toward 400 Mhz, and a 400 MHz GPU will have one more year of advantage against its competitors in the mobile market (which means late 2013?).

[Entropy]

Originally Posted by RDGoodla

I understand that many developers have had early kits for a long time, according to the article:

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-private-event

However, it is very interesting that the latest kit would have a "final GPU" inside it. What does the term "final GPU" mean?

If NGP uses 28 nm process in Taiwan, SONY may get small amount of 28 nm chips at this time for their latest developmet kits, and this may be accounted for the term "final GPU" (fabricated in 28 nm instead of 40 nm).
So NGP still have the chance to push its GPU toward 400 Mhz, and a 400 MHz GPU will have one more year of advantage against its competitors in the mobile market (which means late 2013?).

No, not really. Their CPU+GPU configuration is ambitious for 40nm (sufficiently so that it raises some questions regarding battery life/size/weight), but not for 28nm. Indeed, there are already devices announced for 28nm that would seem to be technologically superior.

The NGP can fit a larger and heavier battery than phones, but then again a 10" tablet can fit a much larger battery than the NPG. Given that the NGP is going to be used close to it's maximum power draw most of the time, I doubt that Sony would like to clock it higher than a phone would allow, in spite of a certain space advantage for its battery. Impossible to say for sure what the clocks will be, and I doubt that Sony will set it in stone before they have a decent idea of the frequency/power draw/yields triad of the final SoC, i.e. very close to launch.

I'll say this though - the NGP will look good. I have an iPad2, and although I'm well known to be easy to please (Hi Mfa ), the graphics performance and qualities of updated titles like Dead Space and Infinity Blade on the iPad2 leads me to believe that the NGP with its 200+ dpi worth of antialiased qHD will be perfectly fine for a long time into the future. Lack of graphical prowess won't be what decides the fortunes of the platform.

[Arwin]

Originally Posted by RDGoodla

So NGP still have the chance to push its GPU toward 400 Mhz, and a 400 MHz GPU will have one more year of advantage against its competitors in the mobile market (which means late 2013?).

One of the biggest issues that Sony have had with the development models was heat. So I think there's a chance of a lower clock, but of course it also could mean they've been working to get it on 400 Mhz. I have no idea, really.

[onQ]

NGP being 960 x 544 makes a lot of sense for playing PSP games & for making games that work with the PS3 & NGP










http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-private-event

The source said the latter was "the WipEout HD PS3 engine running on PS3 with no changes to the art platform. That means full resolution, full 60 frames per second. It looks exactly the same as it does on PS3 – all the shader effects are in there".

With Sony urging developers to create releases that work across PS3 and NGP, the implications of this are significant. "They want us to do cross-platform," said the source, explaining that the submission process has been streamlined, with only a single submission required for a title on PSN and NGP.

to me it seem like they are saying they want devs to make PSN games that work on PS3 & NGP & the fact that they said WipEout HD was the same game full resolution & 60FPS got me thinking they can make the PSN games 1080P & 720P just like always & the NGP will just render or downscale it to 960 x 540.

[Aeoniss]

? How is that scaling to 75%?

1280x720 = 921,600 pixels

960x540 = 518,400


So the NGP\PSP2 is rendering half the pixels just about.


I think I must be confused about something.

[Xenus]

Going by the 200% rather then the 400% in the PSP vs NGP I'm guessing they mean each dimension rather then overall.

[onQ]

Originally Posted by Aeoniss

? How is that scaling to 75%?

1280x720 = 921,600 pixels

960x540 = 518,400


So the NGP\PSP2 is rendering half the pixels just about.


I think I must be confused about something.

because I said scale when you scale something to a new size you don't just make it wider or taller you increase it or decrease the same amount both ways


your thinking is all wrong you're confuse by it not being 75% of the pixels

if someone tell you to make a 10:1 scale of a small statue you wouldn't just make it 1000% taller without making it 1000% wider

[Aeoniss]

But am I right about the amount of pixels being rendered?

Scaling is different, you're right. I'm just kinda of confuzzled I guess with the numbers\logic.

[onQ]

Originally Posted by Aeoniss

But am I right about the amount of pixels being rendered?

Scaling is different, you're right. I'm just kinda of confuzzled I guess with the numbers\logic.

yeah I know I started off using the "NGP 960 x 544 is 4x the pixels of the PSP 480x272" method but realized that using the scale method was a easier & faster way IMO

like a 15" monitor isn't 3x the size of a 5" monitor it's 3x the scale of a 5" but like 9 x bigger so instead of going through all the math I can just say a 15" monitor is 3x the scale of a 5"




& it also makes it easier for me to get a perspective of what the NGP will look like with it's 5" 960 x 544 screen


the ppi is the same as what a 1080P screen would be at 10" well not the same because there would be 8 extra lines of pixels (4 @ top 4 @ the bottom) unless 1080P is really 1088P & it's just not documented because it doesn't sound as cool as 1080P or they just cut them 8 lines of pixels off


(I should be sleep lol)

[lwill]

Originally Posted by onQ

NGP being 960 x 544 makes a lot of sense for playing PSP games & for making games that work with the PS3 & NGP










http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-private-event


to me it seem like they are saying they want devs to make PSN games that work on PS3 & NGP & the fact that they said WipEout HD was the same game full resolution & 60FPS got me thinking they can make the PSN games 1080P & 720P just like always & the NGP will just render or downscale it to 960 x 540.

I don't believe it could be that simple. The architecture of the PS3 and NGP are very different, and while Sony did say that the art engine for Wipeout was the same, they also stated in GDC that it would be suggested to simplify the models, shaders, and textures to make them work on NGP

[Shifty Geezer]

It won't be that simple for 'AAA' titles, but onQ's notion of targeting PSN titles as such isn't far-fetched. Download titles tend to be simpler, lower budget games, that'll be readily developed on middleware. Like Dungeon Defenders, available on handhelds for a while and coming to PS3. This game is a UE3 game and could run on both, and has been given an NGP port that is said to have taken just a week to get running on NGP (and obviosuly, targeting NGP after already designing specifically for next-gen consoles is going to be more work than if you targeted both NGP and PS3 at the same time). It's anticipated NGP players can play with PS3 players. Or Fat Princess. FP is also a UE3 game on PS3, but it needed a discrete PSP version. Fat Princess 2 could run in UE3 on PS3 and NGP, and just be the same game, same assets, running 720p or 1080p on PS3 to differentiate. That it wouldn't be maxxing out PS3's capabiltiles wouldn't be an issue. Most games don't much need to, and it's only the heavy hitters that need to squeeze that much juice. So going forwards, I think onQ is pretty much right here, that a lot of PSN titles can have straight to NGP ports, or rather target NGP and get straight to PS3 ports. If a game purchase ran on both devices, so you didn't have to buy it twice, that'd add a lot of gaming value to NGP. If you have to choose which version, that'd be decidedly rubbish!

[onQ]

Originally Posted by lwill

I don't believe it could be that simple. The architecture of the PS3 and NGP are very different, and while Sony did say that the art engine for Wipeout was the same, they also stated in GDC that it would be suggested to simplify the models, shaders, and textures to make them work on NGP

to me it's pretty clear that they are talking about PSN games that can be made to run on PS3 & NGP

Sony staff demoed a handful of upcoming first-party NGP titles, including Uncharted, Little Deviants and WipEout. The source said the latter was "the WipEout HD PS3 engine running on PS3 with no changes to the art platform. That means full resolution, full 60 frames per second. It looks exactly the same as it does on PS3 – all the shader effects are in there".

With Sony urging developers to create releases that work across PS3 and NGP, the implications of this are significant. "They want us to do cross-platform," said the source, explaining that the submission process has been streamlined, with only a single submission required for a title on PSN and NGP.

And developers were told: "All games at launch available on flash [the physical storage medium] would also be on PSN."

However, Sony is also insisting that it "does not want exactly the same game" on NGP and PS3 – there "has to be a reason for the NGP title". "They want at least some kind of interactivity between the two versions with NGP-only extras," the source added.

The rumoured addition of 'cloud saving' – seen as key for enabling gamers to switch easily between a game on PS3 and NGP – was raised by developers, but SCEE would not officially confirm it.

The publisher also moved to reassure developers that the technical hurdles of cross-platform development were being kept as low as possible.

"Any shaders for PS3 stuff will just work," said the source. "We won't have to rewrite. What would have taken two-to-three months before looks like it could take just one-to-two weeks now. The architecture is obviously different, but it's the same development environment."

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-private-event

[ToTTenTranz]

IMHO, the NGP will quickly become pointless if the developers launch C-grade versions of AAA PS3 titles for the handheld.

Like those EA\Ubisoft\Capcom "ports" of AAA 3D games they made for Gameboy Advance and later to the DS... #shrugs#

[onQ]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

It won't be that simple for 'AAA' titles, but onQ's notion of targeting PSN titles as such isn't far-fetched. Download titles tend to be simpler, lower budget games, that'll be readily developed on middleware. Like Dungeon Defenders, available on handhelds for a while and coming to PS3. This game is a UE3 game and could run on both, and has been given an NGP port that is said to have taken just a week to get running on NGP (and obviosuly, targeting NGP after already designing specifically for next-gen consoles is going to be more work than if you targeted both NGP and PS3 at the same time). It's anticipated NGP players can play with PS3 players. Or Fat Princess. FP is also a UE3 game on PS3, but it needed a discrete PSP version. Fat Princess 2 could run in UE3 on PS3 and NGP, and just be the same game, same assets, running 720p or 1080p on PS3 to differentiate. That it wouldn't be maxxing out PS3's capabiltiles wouldn't be an issue. Most games don't much need to, and it's only the heavy hitters that need to squeeze that much juice. So going forwards, I think onQ is pretty much right here, that a lot of PSN titles can have straight to NGP ports, or rather target NGP and get straight to PS3 ports. If a game purchase ran on both devices, so you didn't have to buy it twice, that'd add a lot of gaming value to NGP. If you have to choose which version, that'd be decidedly rubbish!

I think we will see some devs making games that play on both consoles with the same file & some that will use this to make easy money use the same code but sell it on both consoles.

[ToTTenTranz]

Having the ability to buy a AAA PS3 game with immediate availability for the NGP port through the PSN would surely boost the NGP and the games' sales, hugely.

Buy the game once, play it where you want to.
Steam has shown us how much money you can get from doing that.


Let the publishers be dumb and greedy and try to sell the same game twice (i.e. The Force Unleashed for PSP and PS2), and all of that is lost.

[Shifty Geezer]

Exactly. It's like buying music. Having paid to listen to a track, we don't want to have to pay again and again to listen to the same piece of music just on different devices. That doesn't make sense - the 'purchase' is a right to hear the artist's creation, and not a right to use a particular devices. Likewise movies are starting to come with digital copies and DVDs with BRDs to allow viewing on different devices, instead of having to buy a BRD version and a DVD and a download, which encourages people to jsut rip content.

If the game is the same game, then the nature of the handheld and console is just a variation in how you play the game. The price to access that game shouldn't be devaluing a person's device and experience by artificially locking them out of either device without a second purchase of the same content. At worse a titchy covering fee, but it'd be in Sony's best interests to promote NGP by having the same game bought as a single item that can be downloaded to PS3 and NGP.

I dare say they won't do this though, and the value of NGP will be severely gimped as a result - a handheld console for hardcore gamers, who already onw a hardcore console, and will have to pay hardcore prices to enjoy the same game on both of them.

[scently]

Epic's Tim Sweeney on the NGP and mobile gaming in general. The NGP bit is at the second to last and last paragraph.

[Exophase]

If these quotes are correct I think Tim Sweeney must be losing his mind, saying that iPad 2 really is 9x the graphics performance of iPad 1 and A4's 1GHz Cortex-A8 is roughly equivalent to a 3.2GHz Xenos core..

[Npl]

Paying multiple times for the same game?
Looking at the biggest cash-cows Fifa, NBA and Cod, people seem content with this idea, paying for the same game with updated names on the trikot (changed evil empire race) each year .

IMHO, doing straight ports is wrong. NGP games should either augment the game but beeing good and different enough.. a bit like DLC - optional Portable Content - OPC (you heard it here first folks!). Ties into the game, maybe even unlocks areas when you progress on the other platform.

If straight ports they should be cheap or gratis (included on Bluray), but I wont fancy that much

[onQ]

Originally Posted by scently

Epic's Tim Sweeney on the NGP and mobile gaming in general. The NGP bit is at the second to last and last paragraph.

I came here to post this guess I was too slow.

Now, to come back around to the NGP. Yes, it's got ball-busting, hardcore power. But it's also largely free from the limitations that plague iOS and Android phones. It doesn't have the driver overhead. The memory's predictable. Developers can basically write to the metal, without going through layers of software abstraction. While Epic couldn't talk technical specifics, knowing what we do know about the NGP hardware, and how it won't run into the same ceilings as iOS and Android devices, it's safe to say that it's going to be the undisputed king of killer mobile gaming, at least when it comes to pure, unrelenting eye candy.

So yeah, be ready to strap on your eyeballs. Wouldn't want them to get blown away during your morning commute

.

can't wait