[Renegade_43]

Hi all,

I'm a long time lurker here... many many years haha.

I'm curious to know what everyone thinks the odds are of a relatively cheap toy gun accessory coming out with a FPS game designed for kinect? All it would need is a simple trigger and pointer functionality.

I can imagine the combination with kinect could be quite remarkable! Playing a game like call of duty for instance. You could run on the spot, walk on the spot, crouch, jump, etc... and i think turning could be accomplished relatively easily with an upper body twist or perhaps by just pointing the gun past the edges of the screen all the way to the right or left. Kind of treating it as a right thumb stick. Leaning around corners would also be possible. It seems that with the current kinect tech this wouldn't be much of a stretch and cheap to implement.

Can this reasonably solve the first person shooter finger recognition problem for the time being? And do you think Microsoft will attempt this in the near future?

[AlphaWolf]

I don't know that microsoft would try it, but the opportunity exists for others to try it. Here's the problem, standalone accessories with one game of support typically sell terribly.

The other problem is that the competitive online FPS market is pretty divergent from the target market of kinect.

[Renegade_43]

Well lets say that it is specifically a kinect shooter game. Not necessarily hardcore... heck it could use avatars but that might be problematic. It doesn't need to be as functional as COD with a controller. As long as everyone is on an equal footing. Paintball would be an interesting choice. It is ultimately the competitive online play that would make the game fun just like kinect sports and you'd get a workout.

I think perhaps what I am trying to describe is something shaped similar to the nunchuk with just a pointer and trigger and maybe an A button on the top ( no thumbstick since you have legs). Make them simple and indespensible to the point that it is like having extra batteries laying around. They should be priced in a range low enough $10-20.. and universally shaped enough to apply to many games.

I think it would be a good stop gap solution. Basically call them Kinect Point or something haha. Kind of like the wii motion plus attachment except your hand is the wiimote and you hold the attachment. There is a vast number of games this incredibly simple controller could apply too.

I just don't see why you would want to avoid the FPS crowd or even the casual gamers in general since its not like they're not interested in shooting things. It has always proven itself to have the largest market and there's no reason motion control can't mean casual motion shooters that are still competitive online!

[RobertR1]

I want no accessories for Kinect. I really enjoy the full body freedom and the best part of Kinect is watching other people's avatars. Knowing that what I see them do is exactly what they're doing in real life at that moment is very cool.

Keep Kinect for unique experiences and keep the controller for traditional games.

[zed]

infidel, with kenect "you are the controller"
to suggest otherwise is blasphemous (nod nod wink wink think of than danish cartoonist, the wrath of allah is mighty)
you have been warned (OBL)

[PixResearch]

It would be great if they did, however as Microsoft haven't released a single light gun game for the console to date afaik (and there are plenty on the other consoles) there may be a choice not to do so behind the scenes.

[Shifty Geezer]

Hybrid controller+Kinect games are in development, but I don't expect a shooter type peripheral until at least these other hybrid games have proven the platform's viability. They'd also need some way to get accurate pointing from the device, as just pointing the arm isn't good enough - unless of course they go casual and use assists, with pointing being more general target selection than accurate aim. But as MS apparently sees controllers as a hardcore system, a barrier for the masses, I don't imagine they'll be targeting controller+Kinect games at the masses, but instead the mainstream gamer. Which would in turn suggest a requirement for skill and accuracy, which would suggest a more sophisticated input mechanic that isn't currently present in Kinect. Basically, it'd need a new gun controller. Unless they go with motion like a mouse, but that is counterintuitive (yes, MAG, I'm looking at you!).

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by RobertR1

I want no accessories for Kinect. I really enjoy the full body freedom and the best part of Kinect is watching other people's avatars. Knowing that what I see them do is exactly what they're doing in real life at that moment is very cool.

Keep Kinect for unique experiences and keep the controller for traditional games.

Oh c'mon imagine a Time Crisis type game with a Light Gun peripheral. Now imagine you're in charge of a squad of troops that you can command with gestures and maybe keyword voice commands. Combine that with actual ducking, jumping over obstacles, perhaps climbing, dodging, melee (boxing/kicking), etc...

C'mon you just KNOW that would rock. Hell, imagine if you could also brain someone with the lightgun? After kicking them in the crotch? Oh yeah. Or throwing off someone that just grappled you, then shooting them point blank while they were recovering?

It'd be on rails probably. But it would be fun as hell, IMO.

Hell, make that a Lancer Assault Rifle Light Gun peripheral. Make it a shooter on rails type thing in the Gears of War universe with the above gameplay. Grenades that you actually throw? Kick someone in the crotch then chainsaw them? Or execute them with a shot to the head? Or stick a grenade in their mouth and kick them away? Do a real curbstomp? Your choice. Hell, stick an analog stick on the light gun and remove the shooter on rails Time Crisis like movement.

Regards,
SB

[-tkf-]

Sounds like a very good idea..

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Hybrid controller+Kinect games are in development, but I don't expect a shooter type peripheral until at least these other hybrid games have proven the platform's viability. They'd also need some way to get accurate pointing from the device, as just pointing the arm isn't good enough - unless of course they go casual and use assists, with pointing being more general target selection than accurate aim. But as MS apparently sees controllers as a hardcore system, a barrier for the masses, I don't imagine they'll be targeting controller+Kinect games at the masses, but instead the mainstream gamer. Which would in turn suggest a requirement for skill and accuracy, which would suggest a more sophisticated input mechanic that isn't currently present in Kinect. Basically, it'd need a new gun controller. Unless they go with motion like a mouse, but that is counterintuitive (yes, MAG, I'm looking at you!).

Good find and many saw this coming. The best solution is "Kinect" + "Move" but too expensive, a combination might reduce Kinect CPU time. Price is king so we will see compromises limiting game play on both platforms. Next generation who knows.

I expect a gun accessory that provides Kinect with a long unique colored barrel (for targeting accuracy) and a LED connected to a trigger. It should be cheap to produce.

[Richard]

Originally Posted by jeff_rigby

I expect a gun accessory that provides Kinect with a long unique colored barrel (for targeting accuracy) and a LED connected to a trigger. It should be cheap to produce.

Yes, and it would still sell for $99.95.

Anyway, a Time-Crisis game I could see but how would a FPS work (moving continuously)? Also, we need a 360º display. Or a CGG-green room + augmented reality glasses, call it ProtoDeck.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by Richard

Yes, and it would still sell for $99.95.

Anyway, a Time-Crisis game I could see but how would a FPS work (moving continuously)? Also, we need a 360º display. Or a CGG-green room + augmented reality glasses, call it ProtoDeck.

Since it would be sort of a hardcore game with casual appeal or casual game with hardcore appeal depending on how you think about it...

Using my above example, you could stick an analog stick to control either -

1) Forward, Back, strafe left, strafe right.
2) Forward, Back, turn left, turn right.

Perhaps an additional button to switch between those two. Perhaps a little unweildly, but it would after all be a hybrid casual/core game. That would keep additional controls down to 1 analog stick, 1 button, and 1 trigger.

You could have automatic camera movement for cinematic view up or view down moments. Since you can aim anywhere on the screen with a Light Gun, there's no explicit need for a look up/look down control. Alternatively you could potentially have head tracking to control look up/look down. Hell, you could potentially use head tracking for turn left and turn right which would reduce physical controls down to just analog stick and trigger.

Reloading weapons would be the standard shoot the gun off screen type of thing. Choosing different weapons could be as simple as "shooting" the weapon you want with weapons displayed along the bottom of the screen.

No buttons required for jumping, ducking, getting into cover, throwing a grenade, melee, etc. since that would all be handled by body controls.

Certainly not a pure "shooter." But again this would, IMO, be a very compelling hybrid core/casual type of game.

And I think a dedicated light gun would still be better than a psuedo gun tracked by Kinect for aiming. Gun would obviously be wireless to make it more compelling.

Regards,
SB

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Since it would be sort of a hardcore game with casual appeal or casual game with hardcore appeal depending on how you think about it...

Using my above example, you could stick an analog stick to control either -

1) Forward, Back, strafe left, strafe right.
2) Forward, Back, turn left, turn right.

That's going to be hard for most folk to control I'd have thought. Wii and PS3 have separated aiming and movement between arms, but having to run both action through the same physical control is going to cause some crossed signals, and aiming getting messed up while moving.

You could have automatic camera movement for cinematic view up or view down moments. Since you can aim anywhere on the screen with a Light Gun, there's no explicit need for a look up/look down control. Alternatively you could potentially have head tracking to control look up/look down. Hell, you could potentially use head tracking for turn left and turn right which would reduce physical controls down to just analog stick and trigger.

Then you'd have to look left to turn left, yet aim right to shoot the guy on the edge of the screen. And if you turn your head to look at him, he'll be centre screen. At which point you may as well just have head-tracking aiming! MAG highlighted for me the problems of FPS with a gun controller, and it's going to be 'hardcore'. You need to use the gun in two different modes, as a D-Pad by aiming offscreen/edge of screen, and then as the pointer for aiming on screen. There's also using it as a virtual analogue stick, which plain feels wrong.

No buttons required for jumping, ducking, getting into cover, throwing a grenade, melee, etc. since that would all be handled by body controls.

That's certainly a plus. In fact you could do turning with feet position. Don't know how well Kinect copes with body twisting, but if you could twist your legs about, that might work. But the problem there is not interacting with the screen properly. You need to be both positioning your body to control avatar movements including turning, and yet need to be facing front to get your eye view.

Certainly not a pure "shooter." But again this would, IMO, be a very compelling hybrid core/casual type of game.

I don't think FPS can ever be casual unless on rails, because the amount of input vectors needed make it hard to control. There's XY position and rotation and then the independent XY aiming. Six things to worry about, where casuals can't even manage the four on dual sticks that's less disorientating then wanting to turn a different way to the way you are looking.

[thatdude90210]

Heh, "Kinect: you are the controller.*"

*controller sold separately.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

That's going to be hard for most folk to control I'd have thought. Wii and PS3 have separated aiming and movement between arms, but having to run both action through the same physical control is going to cause some crossed signals, and aiming getting messed up while moving.

Hmmm, that's a valid point. Alternatively, another scheme could just be 2 buttons on each side of the gun (if a 2 handed gun like the Gears Lancer for example). One button turns you right and the other turns you left.

Alternatively you could have a one handed gun, and use your other arm to control looking (up, down, turn left, turn right). But I don't like this scheme as it seriously breaks immersion and would feel silly, IMO. As well, would get potentially confusing. So scratch this idea.

Then moving forward would be simply making a walking or running motion with your feet. Interestingly, this automatically makes your aim less accurate when moving. Something many semi-realistic games try to mimic with the aiming reticle expanding while moving.

That would fit in more with the types of Kinect games I'm wanting. Ones that feature some level of physical activity.

So in this configuration there'd only be the Light Gun, 2 buttons and one trigger which should be simple enough. The only type of movement that this would make difficult or impossible is moving backwards. Although I suppose they could make it so pressing both buttons simultaneously would make you slowly move backwards at the expensive of not being able to turn left or right.

Hmmm, one other posibility is having movement controlled by where you are stading. As an example Your Fitness has a virtual "workout mat" that you must stay within for it to accurately determine whether you are doing the exercises correctly or not. So absolute positioning of the player is fairly accurately tracked by Kinect.

So, in this shooter thought exercise, say movement is controlled by where your body is in relation to "center". The game could display a virtual square or circle similar to Your Shapes play mat. A dot in that virutal controller space would let the player know where they are standing in case they ever need to re-orient their body position. You'd still need the buttons to turn, but movement becomes more similar to an analog control scheme.

I think I like the idea for walk/run motion moving you forward however. More physical activity involved in that. I'm grinning imagining a player running out of ammo, then furiously doing a run motion as fast as they can to close on their enemy to engage them in hand to hand combat.

Oh speaking of which, once in melee combat range, the camera should then automatically track your melee opponent.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Then you'd have to look left to turn left, yet aim right to shoot the guy on the edge of the screen. And if you turn your head to look at him, he'll be centre screen. At which point you may as well just have head-tracking aiming! MAG highlighted for me the problems of FPS with a gun controller, and it's going to be 'hardcore'. You need to use the gun in two different modes, as a D-Pad by aiming offscreen/edge of screen, and then as the pointer for aiming on screen. There's also using it as a virtual analogue stick, which plain feels wrong.

The last Time Crisis light gun has an analog stick on it, but it's disorienting to shoot, duck and then use the analog stick at the same time.

Head tracking aiming will be problematic because you can't aim precisely or lobe a grenade properly. In fact, using hand action to throw a grenade has the same problem. You can't aim the drop precisely. Uncharted 2 has grenade aim assist. So you flip a button and the grenade will land at the right place. But you can also adjust the landing point with the right analog stick (in case the system estimated wrongly when the enemies and you change position suddenly). It has to happen in split second because the enemy may be looking elsewhere when you lobe the grenade.

The other major issue with using hands to perform fast action is: You'll most likely be dead before completing the action. In MAG, you swing or thrust the controller to use the knife. The DS3 players can do it with a push of the stick. I always lose when it comes to knife fighting.

Shooting on rail is the easiest way out. The other way to sidestep this is to forbid controller players in the same game. ^_^

The third way is to keep the dual analog arrangement and just split it.

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

...

Good to see gamers pick up exercising.

I suspect over a few months, many may get tired and balance their controller-free vs controller diet out. They all are fun in different ways.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by patsu

The other major issue with using hands to perform fast action is: You'll most likely be dead before completing the action. In MAG, you swing or thrust the controller to use the knife. The DS3 players can do it with a push of the stick. I always lose when it comes to knife fighting.

Well, Move is an interesting case as it's being retrofit into existing games, so situations like that will arise.

With the thought exercise we're doing here, everyone will have the same advantages and disadvantages of a mixed casual/core type of game.

It's interesting trying to think of ways to remain casual (no controller complexity confusion) while offering a taste of core gameplay.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

If you want motion combat, then the sword, shield and archery type may be more interesting than gunplay IMHO.

Gun is a button-y weapon.

To tell you the truth, I don't see why casuals can't play FPS. It's not really a capability or usability question. My wife played Halo pretty well. It's the mechanics (difficulty level), story, same old stereotyping and monsters crap that turn her off. We played Legendary in Halo 2. The repeated restart in co-op game (whenever one of us died) made her think that gaming is a huge waste of time. She never touch FPS after that.

Then again, she plays a lot of casual games (spelling, cards, puzzle, etc.). ^_^

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by patsu

If you want motion combat, then the sword, shield and archery type may be more interesting than gunplay IMHO.

Gun is a button-y weapon.

To tell you the truth, I don't see why casuals can't play FPS. It's not really a capability or usability question. My wife played Halo pretty well. It's the mechanics (difficulty level), story, same old stereotyping and monsters crap that turn her off.

And yet the House of the Dead corridor shooter was one of the better 3rd party sellers on the platform. So there's a market for a shooter type of game.

The exercise here was thinking of a way to maintain the casualness of a corridor shooter while potentially expanding the appeal and providing a mechanism that could open up multiplayer gaming.

So technically HotD is a FPS (first person viewpoint shooter), but isn't a traditional core FPS as it's on rails. What I've been throwing out here is methods that would allow a hybrid or "bridge" between the casual corridor FPS and the traditional core FPS with particular thought going into ways to allow for online multiplayer.

Whether that would be compelling enough to move some casuals ever so slightly towards core type games is obviously debatable. As well whether full motion body controls and a light gun (your button-y weapon ) would be able to tempt core type gamers to try a more casual type shooter.

It does offer the potential for the two types to meet in the middle and fight it out for supremacy however. And light guns would even the playing field considerably between casuals and core types.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

And yet the House of the Dead corridor shooter was one of the better 3rd party sellers on the platform. So there's a market for a shooter type of game.

On what platform ?

Light gun ? It's a button-y control. ^_^

If we add walking and other complications, it may not be a casual game anymore. It'd be like Halo. In which case, the existing controller works well for the game, even for casuals (my wife and friends). It's the game concept + mechanics that need to change.

Making the controller invisible doesn't really solve the simplicity problem automatically. You can come up with convoluted Move or Kinect gestures, and you can come up with simple DS3 games.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by patsu

On what platform ?

Light gun ? It's a button-y control. ^_^

If we add walking and other complications, it may not be a casual game anymore. It'd be like Halo. In which case, the existing controller works well for the game, even for casuals (my wife and friends). It's the game concept + mechanics that need to change.

Making the controller invisible doesn't really solve the simplicity problem automatically. You can come up with convoluted Move or Kinect gestures, and you can come up with simple DS3 games.

The controller is a big barrier to casual acceptance though. Even for me, the controller itself is a big hurdle for console FPS games. Having to remember which button does what. I STILL don't get all the buttons right in Halo: Reach. And thus end up rarely using grenades/special abilities/jump/etc...

It certainly wouldn't be a core FPS with what I've proposed by something in the middle.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

Yes and no. I think the content comes first. My non-gaming friends were receptive to Flower, Everyday Shooter, PixelJunk Monster, Heavy Rain, SingStar, Buzz, etc. All with controllers. They also play light gun games in the arcade.

As long as the content is relevant (and appeals) to them, plus the control scheme is simple, the controller should not be an issue. The Wii controller works because it offers a completely new experience on top of compelling content and simplicity. All 3 factors work together.

There are people at the extreme end of the spectrum (e.g., senior citizens who don't appreciate technologies, like Hayao Miyazaki). That's where Wii-type and Kinect-type intuitive controls become a bigger deal. But it may or may not work.

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

The controller is a big barrier to casual acceptance though. Even for me, the controller itself is a big hurdle for console FPS games. Having to remember which button does what. I STILL don't get all the buttons right in Halo: Reach. And thus end up rarely using grenades/special abilities/jump/etc...

Button mapping can be a problem. I am confused too when playing MAG using Move. But that's a core gamer's FPS.

Then again, I also forgot about swiping the controller to jab my opponents even if it's supposed to be intuitive. For a light gun game, if all they have is point, shoot and dodge, then there is no confusion. If we add more functions, then more people will get confused -- with or without controller. e.g., if we add walking, then the player has to figure out where the next objective is, and what's the best way to get there.

I think if they add better simulation, then may be a title can cross casual and expert gamer boundary. e.g., For Table Tennis, the Bronze level TT and Championship Cup TT plays differently although the control scheme hasn't changed.

I am interested to find other approaches.