[Brodda Thep]

I think kinect is actually too forgiving. Sure, navigation is fairly intuitive, but it always seems to be klunky. Dance Central is nice, but then that is limited to navigating through lists, one list for each arm. But it is snappy. Of course this is all that has been needed. So far.

This is where they need to release drivers for the PC. Have a UI contest. I bet you would see quite a few excellent implementations quite quickly. I think the workspace on a plane parallel to the person is a good idea ala Minority Report. But there needs to be better feedback. Why not have the surface ripple when you touch it? Tint the ripples by how far you have passed through the plane, etc. Push far enough in and the plane locks to your hand and moves with it. Could be easily used for zooming effects too.

Though I am sure you have probably played around with a lot of these ideas, but nearly every single one of the games I have for kinect uses a different navigation system. So it doesn't seem to have been too well fleshed out. I think this is one area that will quickly converge to one or two 'best' implementations.

I love the tech though. As an engineer that works daily with industrial sensors I am always amazed how cheap these sensors are for what they do.

[patsu]

Taa-daa !

Multi-touch interface prototype using Kinect:


EDIT: Apparently, the TISCH library supports Wii also.

[patsu]

I missed this last time:

Multi-touch Whiteboard using the Wiimote:


Should be doable with Move too, yes ?

[patsu]

Kinect Can Provide Data On How Families Use Content:
http://gamasutra.com/view/news/31505...se_Content.php

Xbox Live Gold members spend 40 percent of their time on non-gaming applications on the console, like Netflix or Zune music and video, says Dennis Durkin of Microsoft's Interactive Entertainment Business. And now the launch of Kinect provides new opportunities for the company to tailor content to individual users.

"I think what we've found is the core gamer may have been the person who brought the box into the house, but as you add new experiences and broader content choices for other members of the house, they come and use the system," Durkin said at the BMO Capital Markets conference.

"We can track some of that usage as it relates to broader family members in the house," he says. Of course, in houses where many family members are sharing the Xbox 360, it's been hard even with analytics to know who's using what.

"Kinect actually brings an interesting opportunity as it relates to that," notes Durkin. "Obviously with Kinect, it has facial recognition, voice recognition... we can cater what content gets presented to you based on who you are."

That gives the system the opportunity to adapt the content it suggests depending on who it sees in front of it: "Your wife in the future might get a different set of content choices than you, because we have a smart device that knows her preferences are different than yours," Durkin suggests.

...

[rabidrabbit]

Originally Posted by patsu

Kinect Can Provide Data On How Families Use Content:
http://gamasutra.com/view/news/31505...se_Content.php

I hope it can be disabled if I don't want give my information to MS.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by patsu

Multi-touch interface prototype using Kinect:

Now that's what I'm talkin' about! Reaching in to select stuff. It seems quite intuitive to me.

Originally Posted by rabidrabbit

I hope it can be disabled if I don't want give my information to MS.

Yeah, I was thinking that the other day, more to do with bkilian's talk of cloud-based speech recognition. Such a system would also be listening to everything you say! Big Brother could be giving you toys to play with which appears nice, but he's out to get you really! However, in this particular example I can't see much difference between the data Kinect gives and what MS gets from users signing in anyway. I guess Kinect can identify multiple users, such as "three of the four in this family are watching this movie" where before they only had that the movie was being watched while one person was signed in. Can't say I'm in favour of this sort of data mining, from any company.

[AzBat]

Updated 4:23 p.m.: OK, here's Microsoft's statement:

Xbox 360 and Xbox Live do not use any information captured by Kinect for advertising targeting purposes. Microsoft has a strong track record of implementing some of the best privacy protection measures in the industry. We place great importance on the privacy of our customers' information and the safety of their experiences.

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/...rom=blog_last3

Fearmongering at its best.

Tommy McClain

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by AzBat

http://blog.seattlepi.com/microsoft/...rom=blog_last3

Fearmongering at its best.

...says Dennis Durkin of Microsoft's Interactive Entertainment Business..."We can track some of that usage as it relates to broader family members in the house," he says. Of course, in houses where many family members are sharing the Xbox 360, it's been hard even with analytics to know who's using what.

"Kinect actually brings an interesting opportunity as it relates to that," notes Durkin. "Obviously with Kinect, it has facial recognition, voice recognition... we can cater what content gets presented to you based on who you are."

Fearmongering of MS's own creating!

[patsu]

[Scratch head]

It's business as usual. They are talking to the industry and analysts. Of course, they have to highlight the upside. Microsoft have been talking about features like this way before launch (e.g., Recognizing which football team you're supporting, etc.). How they do it is a different question. They can certainly balance the privacy concerns with their financial or marketing needs. Sometimes/very often, it can benefit the users too.

[RobertR1]

Why is there such an uproar about this? This is no different than Amazon/Neflix and most other successful operations catering products specific to users basic on data gathered.

Down the road, there literally might be a million different offerings on Live. Why not leverage Kinect's ability to include more data to fine tune the product offerings?

[patsu]

I only see one person complaining. Hardly an uproar.

[Asher]

I upgraded my launch-unit 360 and launch-unit PS3 today to their respective new motion controller bundles.

Spent a couple hours with each so far.

Initial impressions:
Started with the PS Move:

It's very, very Wii like. It's definitely quite precise with pretty low latency, but the Sports Champions game felt like a soulless Wii Sports with a little more accuracy. That's the only PS Move game I have, as the others look terrible...

But I'm kind of pissed off at the Move. The accessory gouging is insane. Navigation...extra......
The worst is the fact that many of the Sports games work far, far better with two controllers. It's nerfed enough without two that I feel like I'm being ripped off. I'm being forced, it seems, to spend $50 more just to get a 2nd Move controller for single-player usecases. This is just obscene to me, and until there's a VERY VERY good PS Move game coming out that needs it, I won't be buying two...I almost want to boycott the rest of PS Move because of this, but I'm already in the boat,soo...

It didn't help that when I tried the demo for EyePet, I was shocked at how utterly terrible the camera quality was. I mistakenly assumed that for $99, the stupid wand and the little webcam would at least have a HD webcam. Wrong, wrong, wrong. It looked awful, but even worse than that, the game was virtually impossible to control. My partner was at the part of the demo, very early on, where it tells you to "wiggle your fingers to make him pounce". We spent about five minutes wiggling fingers in every possible way before it FINALLY happens. All with a nagging narrator telling you to wag your fingers every 30s.

Kinect : Seems FAR more polished. The setup was a breeze, it was welcoming. It feels very fresh and even inviting. Others in the household not usually attracted to gaming at the least were extremely impressed, even with the Kinect dashboard and the voice recognition ("Xbox, open tray", etc). We have Dance Central and Your Shape, and they were both very well done. The Dance Central game in particular is a phenomenal showcase for the technology, and it also got my mother-in-law involved on the action because it was so inviting: and I assure you, she's NEVER played a video game in her life...

Again, only a couple hours in with each.

[Asher]

Originally Posted by patsu

I missed this last time:

Multi-touch Whiteboard using the Wiimote:


Should be doable with Move too, yes ?

It should be doable with a lot of basic, cheap technologies. There's a cool "neat" factor to this stuff if you've never seen it before, but compared to the commercial multi-touch interactive whiteboards, this is pretty limited.

Disclaimer: I work for the world leader in multitouch whiteboards, specifically working on multi-touch software.

My company was making low-cost (in terms of component costs, not MSRP ) IWBs with this functionality like in the video since 1991.

The stuff we do now is far more powerful. Not only do we support multi-touch with pens, we also support any kind of touch on the board. We can recognize pens, fingers, fists, objects (teachers love activities where students can throw squishy balls at the board), etc. All at the same time.

The technology we use to do this is FAR closer to Kinect than the Wii/Move.

The granularity of the result from the Wiimote hacks is pretty poor also, it's very obvious in person. There's also a whole ton of usability issues, mostly revolving around occlusion.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Asher

The worst is the fact that many of the Sports games work far, far better with two controllers. It's nerfed enough without two that I feel like I'm being ripped off.

[Confused] Gladiator, Archery, Volley Ball and Lights Out (Boxing) support dual controllers. The others only support one controller. e.g., Table Tennis, Tennis, Golf, Disc Golf, Bocce, Racquet Ball, Bowling, Darting, Pool. Amongst these, my personal favorites are ProStroke Golf, SC Table Tennis and Gladiator.

But the Move XMB integration indeed stinks !

Originally Posted by Asher

It should be doable with a lot of basic, cheap technologies. There's a cool "neat" factor to this stuff if you've never seen it before, but compared to the commercial multi-touch interactive whiteboards, this is pretty limited.

Cool ! If it's ported to Move, it would track in 3D space and remain cheap ! But we will need controller-free UI for general navigation too.

[Asher]

Originally Posted by patsu

[Confused] Gladiator, Archery, Volley Ball and Lights Out (Boxing) support dual controllers. The others only support one controller. e.g., Table Tennis, Tennis, Golf, Disc Golf, Bocce, Racquet Ball, Bowling, Darting, Pool. Amongst these, my personal favorites are ProStroke Golf, SC Table Tennis and Gladiator.

It's just my luck then that the most interesting and unique games (Gladitor/Archery/Vball are the three I played) require two controllers to really experience properly.

I think Sony made a massive misstep in only including one controller in the "starter bundle". The Move is ridiculously expensive to be "fully featured" in all games compared to everything else.

[patsu]

IMHO, it's more important to solve the software integration and user experience problem. Some of the unique and most amazing features (e.g., sketch recognition) only require one controller anyway. As long as people buy into the experience, spending on another controller at the same price as a DS3 should not be a problem.

If they make people buy 2 controllers that only work in 2-3 games, it may be more problematic/wasteful.

The family and kid-oriented games also don't need 2 controllers: EyePet, Beat Sketcher, The Shoot, Tumble, Flight Control (EU and Japan), Start the Party. You take turns to play. Although with 2 controllers, both can play together. Tumble is the only one that supports dual controllers for 1 player.

... and then there are free demoes, and patched games. This is the part I have mixed feelings. I think Sony should do more new games, than using patched games to sell Move.

The lousy user experience is the worst problem so far.

[Asher]

Originally Posted by patsu

IMHO, it's more important to solve the software integration and user experience problem.

And this is part of the user experience problem. The "starter kit" doesn't produce the full experience, and as a result it's VERY underwhelming compared to the competition.

Some of the unique and most amazing features (e.g., sketch recognition) only require one controller anyway. As long as people buy into the experience, spending on another controller at the same price as a DS3 should not be a problem.

Sketch recognition is neat, but I very much doubt it seriously interests many people to any reasonable degree. Air-drawing is nifty but gets old fast, and rather limited in possibilities.

... and then there are free demoes, and patched games. This is the part I have mixed feelings. I think Sony should do more new games, than using patched games to sell Move.

The lousy user experience is the worst problem so far.

There's a few problems, user experience is the most glaring after the lack of real "killer apps" for the product.

But the other problem is how complicated it is. You've got games that support one "Move" controller, you've got games with 1 Move + 1 Nav, you've got games with 2 Moves...

It's also pretty obvious once you start looking at the TCO, a "fully functional" Move setup is outrageously expensive. Expensive + complicated hardware combined with a lack of really ground-breaking titles...there's a lot more for Sony to be concerned with here than user experience.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Asher

And this is part of the user experience problem. The "starter kit" doesn't produce the full experience, and as a result it's VERY underwhelming compared to the competition.

*Shrug*
The starter kit provides a full experience if all you're interested are the single Move controller games. e.g.,
My son doesn't like to play Gladiator, Volley Ball or Archery. He's super happy in EyePet, Beat Sketcher demo and Start the Party.

Sketch recognition is neat, but I very much doubt it seriously interests many people to any reasonable degree. Air-drawing is nifty but gets old fast, and rather limited in possibilities.

For now yes, it appeals to kids and has novelty factor. But if Sony uses it for more sophisticated application, it should shine. Air-drawing actually has a lot of potential if done right. In many situations, we need to draw and scribble (say... on a whiteboard ^_^) to express ourselves or describe something. In fact, the standard Video chat can be enhanced with shared whiteboard easily. XMB messages should support scribble too. Team FPSes and Sports games may benefit from it too.

Out of the SC sports, Table Tennis and Gladiator are probably the interesting games.

There's a few problems, user experience is the most glaring after the lack of real "killer apps" for the product.

There is no so-called killer app because Sony neglect to package the core gameplay nicely. ^_^
Sports Champions is a pretty good game, but it has uninteresting art and seen-before concepts. It looks like Sony is only interested in individual title sales, whatever they are. The integration or new experiences are sorely missed.

But the other problem is how complicated it is. You've got games that support one "Move" controller, you've got games with 1 Move + 1 Nav, you've got games with 2 Moves...

You can play all of them with just one Move controller.

It's also pretty obvious once you start looking at the TCO, a "fully functional" Move setup is outrageously expensive. Expensive + complicated hardware combined with a lack of really ground-breaking titles...there's a lot more for Sony to be concerned with here than user experience.

Expensive compared to what ? ^_^
The startup cost is just 1 Move controller and 1 PSEye for most people. For some, it's only 1 Move controller.

[makattack]

Originally Posted by Asher

I upgraded my launch-unit 360 and launch-unit PS3 today to their respective new motion controller bundles.

...

But I'm kind of pissed off at the Move. The accessory gouging is insane. Navigation...extra......

I'm in agreement here. It's especially confounding for us multi-console owners. I have 4 remotes for my AV system (TV, AVR, DVR, PS3 BDR remote), 2x 360 controllers, 1x PS3 controller, about 10x AA and AAA rechargeable batteries for all those controllers, a battery conditioner/charger station (4 cell capacity), a wireless headset... you can imagine how crazy it would be to introduce even 1 or 2 move controllers.

I can consolidate all my AV controllers into a single expensive remote -- except for the PS3 bluetooth remote, but I'm not keen to spend the equivalent of 4 game titles for a Logitech Harmony One controller.

Because of all this, I most likely won't be getting the Move. The Kinect is also out because the game titles don't interest me -- despite my great interest in the technology.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by makattack

I can consolidate all my AV controllers into a single expensive remote -- except for the PS3 bluetooth remote, but I'm not keen to spend the equivalent of 4 game titles for a Logitech Harmony One controller.

I think Logitech sells an infrared port (uses one of your USB ports though) for the PS3 to allow it to interface with standard Logitech remotes. Not sure if it works with other standard universal remotes.

It really is absolutely horrible that one wasn't included, IMO. It was one of the things that continues to put me off about the PS3. I have "1" remote for all my living room home entertainment devices and X360 works flawlessly with it.

Regards,
SB

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Asher

It's very, very Wii like. It's definitely quite precise with pretty low latency, but the Sports Champions game felt like a soulless Wii Sports with a little more accuracy. That's the only PS Move game I have, as the others look terrible...

so you played gladiator, vball and archery. The two moves only significantly improves Gladiator I think. Archery it makes next to no difference as the amiing is still the same; two moves just allows you to load with your other arm. I don't think Beach Volleyball is significantly different as in Vball you hold both hands together, but I haven't tried that. Gladiator doesn't showcase Move's accuracy particularly well, at least not at the early levels, as it's not 1:1. You have to aim real low to make low strikes, rather than aim exactly where you want to hit.

To really appreciate Move, you want to play the more reaslitic games like TT and at higher levels than the beginner levels with their assits. Also get yourself some demos like RUSE and Tumble, where the control is very different.

As for the EyePet issues, I can only assume you're working in a pretty dark room, or are wiggling fingers over a beige carpet. PSEye is all image based, requiring contrast between moving elements. If there's not enough contrast, it'll ignore slight changes in pixel intensities as noise and not register movement. That was the most significant problem with EyeToy and it's something we need 3D cameras to solve. The actual camera itself isn't bas quality, though remember it's some 3 years old, plus designed on older tech ready for release, so isn't going to feature the latest webcam/mobile cam tech. Perhaps Sony should have offered a new HD camera, and slapped the existing PSEye owners in the face? That would have increased the cost of ownership though, as plenty of Move buyers are just getting a single Move controller.

[Rangers]

My brother in law was over tonight and played the Kinect. He loved it and said "it's definitely way better than the Wii". Which I thought was interesting, for whatever it's worth, as he's pretty much you'd say a "casual" gamer. I dont exactly take it to mean a lot but maybe a little something.

[Nesh]

How much is Kinect being sold in various EU territories? Because where I am the price ranges from 169 to 179 Euros in a few places I have checked which is a lot. I wonder if the retailers are ripping us off. For a comparison the Move starter pack was around 60 to 65 Euro

[manux]

Originally Posted by Nesh

How much is Kinect being sold in various EU territories? Because where I am the price ranges from 169 to 179 Euros in a few places I have checked which is a lot. I wonder if the retailers are ripping us off. For a comparison the Move starter pack was around 60 to 65 Euro

Usual price in Finland seems to be 149e for kinect.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by makattack

I'm in agreement here. It's especially confounding for us multi-console owners. I have 4 remotes for my AV system (TV, AVR, DVR, PS3 BDR remote), 2x 360 controllers, 1x PS3 controller, about 10x AA and AAA rechargeable batteries for all those controllers, a battery conditioner/charger station (4 cell capacity), a wireless headset... you can imagine how crazy it would be to introduce even 1 or 2 move controllers.

I can consolidate all my AV controllers into a single expensive remote -- except for the PS3 bluetooth remote, but I'm not keen to spend the equivalent of 4 game titles for a Logitech Harmony One controller.

Because of all this, I most likely won't be getting the Move. The Kinect is also out because the game titles don't interest me -- despite my great interest in the technology.

PS3 Slim supports HDMI CEC. You don't need Bluetooth controllers. Any TV controller should work with the PS3 if they are connected via HDMI 1.4.

For accessory gouging, you missed out keyboard. ^_^
I have a full sized one because of PS Home and XMB text chat + messaging. The tiny keypads do nothing for me.

Also the official PS3 controller does not support rechargeable battery. So your elaborate charging setup above are for other devices. Since you don't have a controller charger, I assume you charge it from your USB cable.

I'd imagine if Sony sets its mind on it, the Move controller should supercede your Blu-ray remote, keyboard, and supports different style of gaming. Similarly, Kinect should do away with the TV remote also.