[Farid]

It's been a while since anyone's complaints about the game development industry's treatment of its employees found its way into the news. Obviously, these "Quality of Life" issues didn't go away since the EA Spouse days, but strangely enough, the majority of the employees seem to be willing to put up with the pressure instead of taking (legal or informative) actions to their employers, if not right out forming unions.

Well, it seems that this time again, we get the message out that working conditions are unrbearable at Rockstar San Diego -Take Two owned studio that created Midnight Club, Table Tennis andwhich handles the RAGE engine R&D. And once again, we got the message via an anonymous letter written by someone who present herself as a spouse of one of R* SD employee. So once again, we are in a situation where the people working there have been so much mentally conditioned, by themselves or by others, not to speak up about their problems in fear of losing their job that their only way to constructive communication is to resort to rely on anonymous letters written by someone who present herself as a helpless wife.

All in all, it would be nice if the complaining developers working in such large studios/companies got together and challenged their employers, first internally and then, if it failed, publically. That way, they would show their resolve, lead the way to other developers that struggle under the burden of the same issues and in the end, maybe, promote the idea of a better "Quality of Life" for all that industry from a dream to a reality.


The letter as published by Gamasutra:
http://www.gamasutra.com/blogs/Rocks...themselves.php

Originally Posted by Rockstar Spouse

To whomever it may concern,

In response to the unfortunate circumstances, some wives of Rockstar San Diego employees have collected themselves to assert their concerns and announce a necessary rejoinder, in the form of an immediate action to ameliorate conditions of employees.

The turning for the worse came approximately in the month of March of 2009. Till present, the working conditions persists to deteriorate as employees are manipulated by certain hands that wield the reigns of power in Rockstar San Diego. Furthermore, the extent of degradation employees have suffered extends to their quality of life and their family members. Though it is presumed, this unfortunate circumstance is due largely to ignorance and unawareness of most, with enlightened knowledge, action must be taken to protect the rights of employees and those who depend on them. Realizing that such broad claims could hardly spark any interest to take a stand, a better illustration of the wrongs made unto Rockstar San Diego workers is necessary. Futhermore, the detailed descriptions about to be given can serve as a starting point as it will provide a clearer direction for change.

Initially, as work pressure in the office increases, so do the stress levels of employees. Recently, with the amount of stress that has been built up, there have been physical manifestations caused by stress making health a concern. It is known that some employees have been diagnosed with depression symptoms and at least one among them is acknowledged to have suicidal tendencies. These will not be ameliorated with a full time masseuse and will only worsen if no change to improve conditions take place and managers continue with their dishonesty of deadlines. There are understandably times when crunching in work is needed and extended working time is expected. However; as with all systems known to man, there must always be an effort for balance. Ergo, where there are times of acceleration, there are other times of deceleration in order to recuperate. This is not being practiced though, and instead of valued employees, a sentiment grows that they have lost not only the sense of being valued but turned into machines as they are slowly robbed of their humanity. The managers at Rockstar San Diego continue in their dishonesty, pushing their employees to the brink promising temporariness fully equipped with the knowledge of another deadline just around the corner. The reigns whip again, and it becomes mandatory to work close to twelve hours a day including Saturdays, regardless if an employee has finished all his duties prior. These, yes all these are horrendous, yet what makes it unacceptable has yet to come. The fact that these conditions, the same ones that have been proven time and time again to worsen the mental, physical and emotional parts of employees, are also met with further obstruction of employees rights. That of even any effort to retain any health still owned by the employee by seeking medical attention on a Saturday, because on Sundays most medical offices are closed, they must call in sick. Furthermore, not only is it not received with sympathy and understanding rather the must endure an attitude presented to them that they pose a hindrance! No, such core hours step outside the law and will not be accepted as the norm!

In the last years, there have also been many cuts on benefits despite the increasing demands on employees. After dedicated hard work on a project, weeks of comp time were offered as a reward and illustration of appreciation and understanding. Far from what is currently being met by the employees after nearly a year of constant strenuous activity. Little is there to motivate continuation as they also have lost a free vacation week between Christmas and New Year. Without time to recuperate and no efforts made to alleviate the stress of such conditions would procure on an employee after a period time, serious health concerns. Yet, now the health concern becomes another financial concern as the stripping of medical benefits surfaces to realization. It becomes rather worse rather than better as employees gain experience and become "senior". Instead of appreciation, numerous non-exempt designers and artists have had their overtime pay cut as a result for being "too senior". Looking to upper management provides no comfort rather the contrary. With unsuitable behavior from a newly promoted studio manager that vulgarly speaks the F word in most sentences and those who refuse to look at the workers' faces as they pass in the hall, it is clear their attempt to ignore the injustice they have implemented on their once valued and appreciated employees. Perhaps it should be them who explain to our children and loved ones the absence of their increasingly frustrated fathers.

Yet and still, there is more to be said of the working conditions that Rockstar San Diego employees have had to suffer. While managing to endure through the trying times, they still were hit with more blows. Again balance is denied, as working conditions worsened with no appreciation. Working harder, longer, faster, yet there was never a guarantee of a bonus nor if there was any earned, when they will be received! Moreover, bonuses could significantly be reduced based on ANYTHING management comes up with, while the employee would have no way to know about it. Thus bringing to light, the current Rockstar management has grown a thirst for power as it enables itself to grow in the Rockstar's structure. Besides bonuses, financial appreciation has lacked in other aspects as well. For four consecutive years, salary raises have not adjusted properly to cover inflation. This is especially unjust to those who significantly contribute to projects. Further than unappreciative, employees are disrespected when lied to as a whole on how Rockstar games does not generate money and as claims of justification for unappreciated employees are made pointing to the deficit, meanwhile the last Grand Theft Auto game made over a billion dollars of revenue. “Over a billion dollars of revenue”, so where is the recognition and appreciation to those of whom, without them, such success would not have been made?

Conclusively, if these working conditions stay unchanged in the upcoming weeks, preparation will be made to take legal action against Rockstar San Diego. This is the course that naturally presents itself, as either these conditions were manufactured from unawareness and actions to improve conditions will prove such innocence. Or if no action is seen after this letter, it clear that other aspects are the cause of the deteriorated conditions of Rockstar San Diego employees and must be further addressed. Rest assure, all that is desired is compensation for health, mental, financial, and damages done to families of employees.

With all due respect,

Determined Devoted Wives of Rockstar San Diego employees.

The Gamasutra page contains interesting replies by what seems to be R* SD employees, by the way. Just disregard the replieses arguing about the quality, or lack thereof, of the prose displayed in that letter. It's useless pedantry that misses the point.

A fair warning though, for the Usenet users of old and long-time B3D posters, Derek Smart is in that thread of comments. He's been reasonable and outlined a fair point. But still, consider yourself warned.

[woundingchaney]

It is important to note that many of these issues are not solely associated with the "gaming" industry. Every job sector from labor, law enforcement, medical, etc have been subject to harsher working conditions over the last year or so. Realistically there is little to no option for many, given that the job sector has collapsed and even seniors are looking at entry level positions forcing the younger job seekers to look outside of their fields. I am by no means in support of the employer if these accusations are true, but this is a reality felt by many. In issues such as this anyone should realistically look at what they are willing to accept as far as employment conditions as well as just what their opportunities are, because frankly it often comes down to a situation of "just grin and bare it".

Looking at their options I would consult a labor lawyer (or three) and take their opinions with a grain of salt, because Im not sure the court system is going to be overly friendly to the accusations.

As far as wages goes, even the 1-1.5% wage increases that the link suggested is above what I have been seeing in many/most job markets.

[Silent_Buddha]

Difficult times and difficult situations.

It would be nice if all companies had the luxury of a Bungie or Blizzard where you have the funding necessary to finish projects in a reasonable time and at a reasonable pace. And when reaching a deadline, it isn't a hard deadline if the game needs more time. IE - instead of constant crunchtime, you have the leeway to extend the deadline without incurring extended crunchtime.

It's sad that the senior employees with vested time appear to be the ones most hurt by this. Although, you could think the senior employees with the most experience would have the best chances to land a position at another dev. house. Although in this economy I can see where that might be close to impossible.

But this is what we end up with when people complain about game prices, and then resort to pirating. It just futher drives devs of non-super blockbuster titles to have to cut corners in order to meet deadlines within their budgets.

Regards,
SB

[Squilliam]

The question I raise with the points this letter has brought up relate to the time vs performance aspect. Can the management of Rockstar San Diego say whole-heartedly that they are getting more done with 72 hour working weeks than with 50 hour working weeks?

In addition I hope I can get some input to this one here, which studios practice good work/life balance? Is there a correlation between a studio with good work/life balance for its employees and producing games which achieve either higher critical renown or sales revenue and/or both?

[woundingchaney]

Originally Posted by Squilliam

The question I raise with the points this letter has brought up relate to the time vs performance aspect. Can the management of Rockstar San Diego say whole-heartedly that they are getting more done with 72 hour working weeks than with 50 hour working weeks?

In addition I hope I can get some input to this one here, which studios practice good work/life balance? Is there a correlation between a studio with good work/life balance for its employees and producing games which achieve either higher critical renown or sales revenue and/or both?

Im sure they are getting more work done just not a 1:1 ratio for productivity per hour. Given that these employees are most likely salary the additional employer costs are marginal, though this would depend on company policy/employee contracts.

[Squilliam]

Originally Posted by woundingchaney

Im sure they are getting more work done just not a 1:1 ratio for productivity per hour. Given that these employees are most likely salary the additional employer costs are marginal, though this would depend on company policy/employee contracts.

Does anyone use a metric like effective productivity per hour or anything similar? More work = more mistakes from programmers and lower quality art work from artists and less appealing gameplay from designers? Its one thing to work 16 hours, but in the numerous game recaps I've read on Gamasutra they stated that at crunch time they often had to go back and fix mistakes introduced into the game code.

[woundingchaney]

Originally Posted by Squilliam

Does anyone use a metric like effective productivity per hour or anything similar? More work = more mistakes from programmers and lower quality art work from artists and less appealing gameplay from designers? Its one thing to work 16 hours, but in the numerous game recaps I've read on Gamasutra they stated that at crunch time they often had to go back and fix mistakes introduced into the game code.

I dont know about the gaming industry, but yes work quotas are extremely important for many fields. I am most familiar with quotas in the construction field where estimates are of the utmost importance for job bidding. Everything is broken down from hourly production quotas up to a standard work day, longer work days (8+ hours), working environment (weather, temperature, etc), average age of employee, safety protocol, specific work duties, etc.

Bottom line is that in many industries longer hours and more hazardous conditions have a large spectrum of issues associated with them, but longer work days do create more productivity (from my experience). Whether or not this specifically relates to game design I cannot say.

[Squilliam]

Originally Posted by woundingchaney

I dont know about the gaming industry, but yes work quotas are extremely important for many fields. I am most familiar with quotas in the construction field where estimates are of the utmost importance for job bidding. Everything is broken down from hourly production quotas up to a standard work day, longer work days (8+ hours), working environment (weather, temperature, etc), average age of employee, safety protocol, specific work duties, etc.

Bottom line is that in any industry longer hours and more hazardous conditions have a large spectrum of issues associated with them, but longer work days do create more productivity (from my experience). Whether or not this specifically relates to game design I cannot say.

Thank you for your input, it sheds some good light as to the motivations on the employer side of things. I guess they could see it as a way to push greater output and profit from less input. Your experience in an unrelated but tough working industry is valuable.

The interesting thing here is based on the responses from the article on Gamasutra the industry has suffered from bad times and work/life balance of the developers have suffered. Though I don't think one can attribute present working conditions to publisher distress as the conditions of employment have indeed been worse in the early 2000's culminating with the prequel to this letter which was the 'Wives of the EA employees' circa 2004. Times were indeed a lot better then than they are now.

[joker454]

Ahh gaming work environments, an issue close to my heart I really don't think it will ever change, companies will work people to the ground while they can, then just relocate to another country if labor laws force them to allow employees to have lives. I've complained about this numerous times over the years, so many times that I can't even remember how many. I've made the claim in meetings that long work weeks do not equal more productivity, something that is fairly easy to prove with source control where you can see things like code progress, bug progress, increase in errors, etc. It's just not worth it. But it never mattered, it always fell on deaf ears and crunch went on. It's just the accepted norm in the industry where it's understood that you can get an extra four hours of work per day from an employee just by giving him free Chinese food.

Anyways, I won't rant on because this doesn't affect me anymore. I very recently exited the gaming biz and now run my own company. It came down to either watching my future kids grow up, or being a games programmer, two very mutually exclusive events, and I chose to no longer be a games programmer. I make slightly less than before, but my pay per hour is literally 12x higher as I have so much free time now so it was a no brainer. I always tell the same tale to people when the issue of being a video game programmer comes up. I tell them of a night debugging a game in 2006 with a fellow coder when he took a phone call, hung up, then looked at me half happy and half dejected as he told me he missed his kids first steps. I vowed I would never let that happen to me.

So if you want to be in games, just understand this:

1) The long hours will never change. There are more older employees now than ever, but it's still a fairly young work force and there are always plenty of new young bucks eager to work endless hours for free.

2) Labor laws don't work. Look at EA, they got some flack for hours, and they respond by systematically shutting down studios and relocating them elsewhere where they can continue to get cheap labor.

3) Don't be fooled by claims of great work environments. Some do publicly claim 8 hours days, but try actually taking an 8 hour day and see what happens. In some states where you have to register how many hours you work per day, some actually limit said software to 10 hours max, so you can't even enter in 16 hours if that is what you did. So they artificially can say that employees don't have long work hours when in reality they do.

I can go on for pages with horror stories about work hours, but I digress. If you want to be in games then fine, but you absolutely have to love the craft otherwise the hours will kill you. I really don't believe that the hours situation will ever change at the development level. As far as i have determined, the only way to detach yourself from the ridiculous hours is to not be bound to any one game. So being a tech coder for example can sometimes get you less hours, but it still won't be typical 9-5 by any stretch of the imagination. Corporate level is a totally different matter, at that level it is possible to have a normal life but you are fairly far removed from individual games.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by joker454

I've made the claim in meetings that long work weeks do not equal more productivity, something that is fairly easy to prove with source control where you can see things like code progress, bug progress, increase in errors, etc. It's just not worth it.

It isn't so much that a long work week is bad. It's a good resource when used sparingly. The body and mind can function quite well for extended periods as long as it's limited in extent. It's when those ended work weeks start being extended out to 2 weeks, then 4 weeks, etc. with no time to recuperate.

And yes it's fairly normal even in job sectors completely unrelated to game programming or even programming at all.

I've had many jobs where you were either saleried or even hourly where extended hours are expected. 911 emergency call centers for example.

Some hourly jobs even "encourage" employees to work extra hours but to clock out at the end of the 8 hour shift. It isn't "required." But if you don't you would easily find yourself being passed up for promotions, smaller bonus or no bonus, lower pay increase, etc. The jobs that reward you for going out of your way I don't have a problem with. Again the problem comes in when you are expected to do it everyday all the time.

However, with that said, the majority of places that do this will also try to balance things out by making sure you aren't doing those extended hours on a constant or extended basis. Well, with the exception of things such as 911 call service, US Border Patrol call office, Firefighters, Police department, etc. where it is not uncommone to have extended hours for extended periods of time.

Regards,
SB

[Squilliam]

Originally Posted by joker454

Ahh gaming work environments, an issue close to my heart I really don't think it will ever change, companies will work people to the ground while they can, then just relocate to another country if labor laws force them to allow employees to have lives.

Just shortening this as I just wanted to ask one thing.

Can/will competition force their hand in terms of better working conditions? Do companies which you know of with better employee conditions actually perform better in terms of getting good return on investment compared en-masse with the companies which don't?

I hope for change, but the only way I can see it happening is if theres a clear financial incentive to do so. So can you either dash my hopes or give me hope regarding this issue as game developers are dear to my heart in that I care for their conditions.

You could say that I only buy organically produced games, if you get the idea!

[woundingchaney]

Originally Posted by Squilliam

Just shortening this as I just wanted to ask one thing.

Can/will competition force their hand in terms of better working conditions? Do companies which you know of with better employee conditions actually perform better in terms of getting good return on investment compared en-masse with the companies which don't?

I hope for change, but the only way I can see it happening is if theres a clear financial incentive to do so. So can you either dash my hopes or give me hope regarding this issue as game developers are dear to my heart in that I care for their conditions.

You could say that I only buy organically produced games, if you get the idea!

I realize the question wasnt directed towards me, but the issues joker hints on are essentially underlying problems in many labor markets.

Realistically as long as there is an ample and willing workforce currently working and wanting to work under these conditions there is little that can be done. As long as employers have access to labor then work conditions are almost completely out of labors hands (and to a large extent the government). Once he specifically stated that there is a willing and sufficient labor pool ready to work in environments such as this it is simply a losing battle. Not only this but as growing economies become more and more educated then relocating development isnt out of the question where lower wages and less restrictive labor laws are readily available. Im sure there are some development houses where the atmosphere is a joy to be in (Naughty Dog comes to mind), but its not as if they can employ everyone or is it realistic to assume that their situations mimics all other development houses. Honestly I cant see the competition "forcing their hand" more so perhaps the competition taking note of their methods, as I would imagine these things to some extent are common place in the game development industry. These issues by no means surprise me in the least bit as it is common throughout so many industries today.

Its not that people dont know its simply that they dont care. Issues such as this get 5 minutes and then are quickly put in the garbage. Do you care if your home was built by union labor, or if the local McDonalds is paying poverty level wages, are you willing to pay an extra $10 for Nikes made in America (or whatever your country of origin is), etc? I realize that you stated developers are important to you, but what makes them any different then the rest of the labor world (outside of their skill set of course)? People care more about their daily coffee than they do their neighbors work environment or salary, hell even their own.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by Squilliam

Just shortening this as I just wanted to ask one thing.

Can/will competition force their hand in terms of better working conditions? Do companies which you know of with better employee conditions actually perform better in terms of getting good return on investment compared en-masse with the companies which don't?

I hope for change, but the only way I can see it happening is if theres a clear financial incentive to do so. So can you either dash my hopes or give me hope regarding this issue as game developers are dear to my heart in that I care for their conditions.

You could say that I only buy organically produced games, if you get the idea!

Success will determine what a company "needs" their workers to do in order to stay alive and avoid bankruptcy.

If a dev house can produce a blockbuster that just made things easier not only for them but for their employees. If a dev house can consistently produce blockbusters, this can become a standard way of doing things at that dev.

If a dev house puts out a title that has mediocre/low sales due to whatever reasons (bad game, bugs, piracy, etc.) then they'll have to make some difficult decisions. One of which is probably to work the employee's harder than they might otherwise want to.

If a dev house is part of a publisher that is not making money, funding is going to be hard to come by. Pressure to meet deadlines is going to be increased. Tolerance to delays isn't going to be there. Chances are good that workers will be expected to work longer hours without much chance of bonuses, etc...

Those are all obviously generalizations, but you'll find it to be true not only in games programming but virtually any other job market out there.

Looking at that it's easy to say, we'll I'm only going to try to work for a successful dev house/company. But the reality is, that you'll need experience to demonstrate your abilities. Experience that is most often gained at the less successful/troubled dev houses/companies.

And finally there is the caveat that sometimes you'll just have a badly run organization that does indeed have greedy management that can't see or plan more than a couple years ahead and sacrifice long term profitability for lining their pockets now. You'll see some potentially good or previously good franchises ruined in this way.

And be careful looking purely at wages. A company that is based in San Francisco could offer a higher wage than say a company in North Dakota. But the person working in North Dakota could quite easily end up with more purchasing power than a worker in San Francisco at a much lower wage due to the cost of living for the two areas.

Regards,
SB

[eastmen]

Gamestop is pulling the same stuff apparently. They are having their managers work 56 hour work weeks so they can pad their numbers for the share holders.

[joker454]

Originally Posted by Squilliam

Can/will competition force their hand in terms of better working conditions? Do companies which you know of with better employee conditions actually perform better in terms of getting good return on investment compared en-masse with the companies which don't?

Competition between game companies won't help the situation alas. The main issue as others have mentioned is that there are legions of new young talent that are so thrilled to enter game development that they will work unlimited hours if asked to, whether it's effective or not. And if labor laws get too intrusive, then game companies will just relocate to states or countries that let them work people as they want. Shutting down game studios is a relatively routine thing anyways.

As far as knowing game companies with better employee conditions, I don't know of any standouts that I can use for comparison. All the places that I know of that have shipped product all have crunch. They aren't all "EA Spouse" level of bad of course, but they all crunch. Some places like Infinity Ward do give out incredible bonuses, so that certainly takes the sting out of it! Most places though as you can imagine don't compensate the developers anywhere near that level, and many don't compensate them at all. I wish there was a normal work hours studio out there that has shipped product that one could compare with crunch heavy places, but I just don't know of any. Any one know one? I mostly just know studios in USA and Canada, maybe some people at European studios can chime in. I'm curious how work conditions are across the pond.

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

It isn't so much that a long work week is bad. It's a good resource when used sparingly. The body and mind can function quite well for extended periods as long as it's limited in extent. It's when those ended work weeks start being extended out to 2 weeks, then 4 weeks, etc. with no time to recuperate.

Yeah I agree. People don't mind putting in extra time especially when they love what they do. It's when that extra time gets forcefully applied for extended periods of time that it starts to get ridiculous. I also agree that games is certainly not the only industry plagued with this issue.

Regarding how long the body can function well, I do have some data on that. There is a relatively new studio that I know of that is using a different structure of hours. Instead of this typical two week 80 hour schedule:

week 1 monday to friday: 8, 8, 8, 8, 8 = 40 hours
week 2 monday to friday: 8, 8, 8, 8, 8 = 40 hours

...they do:

week 1 monday to friday: 9, 9, 9, 9, 8 = 44 hours
week 2 monday to friday: 9, 9, 9, 9, 0 = 36 hours

The idea is that you get every second Friday off. Now, this two week work schedule was also considered:

week 1 monday to friday: 10, 10, 10, 10, 0 = 40 hours
week 2 monday to friday: 10, 10, 10, 10, 0 = 40 hours

The idea behind that one was four day work weeks all the time, so you always have three day weekends for family, etc. However it was deemed too harsh, and that it would affect performance and quality of life. So at least one place has come to the conclusion that extended use of 10 hour work days, even with Fridays off, would just be too much. Mind you they haven't shipped anything yet (they are fairly new) so it's unknown if that hours experiment is successful or not. Plus it's still unknown if they will avoid crunch. But hey, at least they are trying something new.

[Squilliam]

vcbcv

Originally Posted by joker454

Competition between game companies won't help the situation alas. The main issue as others have mentioned is that there are legions of new young talent that are so thrilled to enter game development that they will work unlimited hours if asked to, whether it's effective or not. And if labor laws get too intrusive, then game companies will just relocate to states or countries that let them work people as they want. Shutting down game studios is a relatively routine thing anyways.

One thing this generation has proved is that successful projects really do pretty usually come from good project management and that the people in the top truely do make a huge difference as the projects baloon in scope. In this respect I believe there is hope in that the well managed companies also seem to be the ones which manage the workload the best and tend to work more efficiently and thus don't require as long hours or cause as much burnout.

One thing I cannot attribute to the current generations HD leap is the ratio between content delivered and expense of creation. There is a leap, but it begs the question about why well managed projects both come in at a more reasonable budget considering content delivered and tend to sell more to boot. The one project whose massive budget stands out is really GTA IV and this article relates back to the working conditions in a subsidiary of that developer.

Maybe we are infact coming to the end of the worst of the poor working conditions as the changeover in generation has really exposed many of the companies with a poor internal structure and their closing down is simply survival of the fittest and the ones which do survive will tend to want to hire project management from the most successful developers so in doing so hopefully good practices will spread and without any concious effort the conditions in the industry will improve.

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Success will determine what a company "needs" their workers to do in order to stay alive and avoid bankruptcy.


Regards,
SB

I think what you said relates back to my response to Joker, if you feel that misrepresents your point of view please say so and I will respond to you directly, thanks I do enjoy your posts.

Originally Posted by woundingchaney

I realize the question wasnt directed towards me, but the issues joker hints on are essentially underlying problems in many labor markets.

Honestly I cant see the competition "forcing their hand" more so perhaps the competition taking note of their methods, as I would imagine these things to some extent are common place in the game development industry. These issues by no means surprise me in the least bit as it is common throughout so many industries today.

Its not that people dont know its simply that they dont care. Issues such as this get 5 minutes and then are quickly put in the garbage. Do you care if your home was built by union labor, or if the local McDonalds is paying poverty level wages, are you willing to pay an extra $10 for Nikes made in America (or whatever your country of origin is), etc? I realize that you stated developers are important to you, but what makes them any different then the rest of the labor world (outside of their skill set of course)? People care more about their daily coffee than they do their neighbors work environment or salary, hell even their own.

The difference in this is because you need skilled labour which understands the desires of your target market. Its not so simple to simply outsource the development overseas completely or they would have done that already. Beyond that its simply a question of cost vs benefit and where that absolute line gets drawn. However, I don't believe that worker conditions directly relate to a cost vs benefit analysis by executives. I believe that poor working conditions relate more usually to how a company is run and under what conditions. Even in countries where they can get away with giving people less than a living wage, its still more productive to pay higher than the market rate because it gives a net positive benefit in having fit and healthy employees.

P.S. I do care how my home was built and by whom. I have a strong set of ethics relating to what I see as fairness.

[Shifty Geezer]

Is Sebbi around? Can I ask what his working conditions were like as an Indie?

[obonicus]

On the subject of project management, is there any sort of methodology used or is it mostly ad hoc? I get the feeling it's the latter.

Interesting quote from the comments:

Please, someone explain why the profitable and very functional Midnight Club team was ripped apart, their technology thrown away (after Midnight Club Los Angeles), and everyone who wasn't fired or quit was shoved onto a project that has been struggling for well over 4 years?

Agent? Max Payne 3?

[deathindustrial]

Obonicus, perhaps I misread but I thought that the dev comment in question was making reference to Red Dead Redemption as the mis-managed game.

[obonicus]

It is, I read further on the comments, been a little too busy to edit my post.

[wco81]

I would think the workers behind mega-hits like MW2 are doing well but most everyone else probably must feel the economic strain not just in the industry but nationally/globally.

It seems games sales follow a similar trend to movie ticket sales, where a big part of the revenues has to be earned in the first week or two after release, before other releases draw away revenues.

So release dates seem to be slotted or have specific windows and that is why there's such pressure to make that window.

While other software doesn't have this sales pattern as entertainment software, usually software development schedules also have peaks like this. But since that software isn't hit-driven like games, well-managed software companies keep larger permanent staff, whereas games studios seem to use contractors more.


I remember looking at the Square web site several years ago. Seemed like they had very generous benefits, like a month off between projects, bonuses, etc. They were doing very well at the time.

[Dregun]

Actually I have quite the interesting story..kinda related.

Way..WAAY back in PS1 days there was a game my friend had called Super Puzzle Fighter II Turbo. Because of this game and how impossible it was to find a copy of the game I resorted to a method of obtaining the ability to play the game that lets just say is frowned upon.

Fast forward a year or two later and my library of "such" software still only consisted of that one particular title. However I remember a Naughty Dog game that had a couple of videos on it, one of the videos was about software piracy and its affects on the industry.

The video started out showing people with stacks piled high of pirated software after the police raided that piracy ring. It was some very dramatic footage, they even had footage of developers sleeping on the floor of the offices in sleeping bags and them talking about how piracy has affected them. (Basically saying because of piracy these guys have to sleep on the floor).

The best part however was when the next video on that disc was all about Naughty Dog and the games they create. Was a very interesting video showing what was going into the design of the games and some background info about the company. It wasn't until the very end of the video that I really started to discredit any claims about piracy affecting the video game business. You see at the end of the video it showed one of the owners peeling out of the parking lot in a Ferrari with a license plate that said NDOG.

So here was a conflicting message, one that Piracy is hurting the industry ..and look at those developers sleeping on the floor because of it. Oh yeah and the owner owns a Ferrari!

If anyone besides me was foolish enough to spend the money earned playing UC2 to unlock some videos about Naughty Dog and Drakes Fortune it was a nice treat. They had a couple videos just about the atmosphere within that company and the "family" aspect that the developers have for one another because of it. What goes on when the camera is off might be different but the employee's being filmed didn't seem to put on a front for fear of losing their job and I think that showed with the quality of the work..ala UC2.

We as consumers are to blame for the industry being the way it is, it's sad to say that "I" am responsible but when I complain because a game I want to play has been delayed I'm basically saying "Those guys should work more hours to complete it on-time/sooner". We sit here and talk about games and how "The developers are being lazy, why wasn't this fixed before release" and "This game has already been delayed once why are they delaying it again".

Granted some management problems are more then likely responsible but until we as consumers cut them some slack on deadlines we contribute to the problem.

[ERP]

I still think a lot of these issues are Historical in nature.

Even 15-20 years ago a lot of the industry was young single men whose lives revolved around their jobs, and crunching for a month on 5 person 3 month projects to make a date made a lot of sense.
Now when most people in development now have famillies and interests outside work, there is still an expectation of these crunch modes. And with large teams and in some cases multiyear schedules what was once a few weeks of crunching has turned into months with little benefit.
I've been on teams where older developers bemoan the fact that people aren't working 6 and 7 day weeks because it doesn't feel like we're finishing.

Having said that a lot of these long drawn out crunch times (or death marches as they are often called) are a result of desperate attempts to salvage product. Your no longer working to any sort of design other than this needs to be fixed and deadlines keep moving. I know of a very successful product that went Alpha 5 times, each time resulted reviews that required more changes, moving dates out leading to developers crunching over a period of almost 15 months.

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

It's just bad management. Whether it's screwed up designs that need to be salvaged in a big panic, or the ignorant idea that you can just burn people out and throw them away as a business model, it's an indication that a relatively new and growing industry still hasn't moved to a professional and mature level.

[Scott_Arm]

I think this kind of treatment is true to most technology companies. The difference is at a startup, people feel they have a real investment in the company, and though they might not want to work late, a lot of times they're proud to do it. Once the companies get bigger, you have to move away from that mentality. People can only stay in startup mode for so long. These companies expect their employees to work like it's a startup for eternity.