[Dave Baumann]

Originally Posted by fellix

Wow! AMD really fought hard for every sq.mm in Barts.

He actually means PHY. Both Redwood and Juniper are (or or less) pad limited 128-bit designs, given the smaller engine on Barts the higher speed PHY is not required anyway.

[mczak]

Originally Posted by Mintmaster

Saving die space is a bonus. Normally you only save on cheaper RAM. This is the right move for a part in this market, because you don't want to pay for 4.8GHz memory anyway.

Well but they are indeed using parts rated for 5Ghz anyway it seems...

Whatever AMD did, the total savings are substantial. Removing 30% of the SIMDs would only save around 10% of Cypress.

Good point. Some key figures Cypress vs. Barts:
Die size: 334mm² - 255mm²: -24%
Transistors: 2.15B vs. 1.7B: -21%
SIMDs: 20 vs. 14: -30%

The trouble is we don't know the size of a simd (though Dave essentially said 2 simds are as big as 16 rops...). Based on the numbers quoted for rv770 from Jawed, taking into account scaling to 40nm and that they are possibly slightly more complex, I'd reckon around 6-7mm²? So skipping 6 of them would indeed only save around 35-40mm², i.e. only half the effective difference.
There are 3 identified other sources of savings:
- MC designed for lower clock
- removal of DP
- removal of second Xfire port
How much those 3 items saves is anyone's guess (the tesselation/thread management improvements OTOH also probably have some hardware cost, though I'd guess it's small). It is also worth noting imho that transistor density went up a bit.

[Mintmaster]

Originally Posted by mczak

Well but they are indeed using parts rated for 5Ghz anyway it seems...

I'm pretty sure IHVs will find a way to save cost by clocking at 4.2GHz.

The trouble is we don't know the size of a simd (though Dave essentially said 2 simds are as big as 16 rops...). Based on the numbers quoted for rv770 from Jawed, taking into account scaling to 40nm and that they are possibly slightly more complex, I'd reckon around 6-7mm²? So skipping 6 of them would indeed only save around 35-40mm², i.e. only half the effective difference.

Yeah, that's basically what I did in saying 10%, but maybe we underestimated it a bit. Could be 50 mm2, or 15% of the die.

Still, there are things that can cost die space, too: faster tessellation, higher clock speed, better CrossFire scaling. All in all, Barts is pretty impressive.

[ECH]

Hmm looks like the 10.10 hotfix is specifically for 6870 and 6850 after all.

[Broken Hope]

Originally Posted by ECH

Hmm looks like the 10.10 hotfix is specifically for 6870 and 6850 after all.

All previous cards are included in the INF, so it will install on other cards at least.

[ECH]

Originally Posted by Broken Hope

All previous cards are included in the INF, so it will install on other cards at least.

Thanks!

[Kaarlisk]

Originally Posted by mczak

Oh, looked it up and actually not that much. Seems HD5850 lowered mem clock from 1000Mhz to 900Mhz, so hardly worth it. Maybe that's the reason HD68xx don't bother at all.

Maybe they simply do not think that bothering with power saving during UVD operation (and validating it) is worth the cost?

I had two different HD4670 cards, their UVD clocks were identical to load clocks, and one had DDR3-800, the other GDDR3-1000. The UVD memory clocks were identical to load clocks, even though its apparent that they could have underclocked the memory on the faster card.
Also, there does not seem to be a difference between the HD4650 and HD4670 in UVD capabilities, so it should at least be possible to clock HD4670 in UVD mode down to HD4650's clocks.

The same argument works with the HD5770 - if the HD5570's memory bandwidth (900MHzx2x128bit) is enough for perfect UVD/HPTC operation, then it should be possible to downclock HD5870 to 225MHzx4x256bit for the memory.
So it does seem that AMD simply do not consider it worthwhile to conserve memory power during video decoding; but this is a complete guess and they probably have excellent reasons for this.

One cannot assume that they could downclock the cores that much, even if they have four times as many shaders, because the UVD unit may require a minimum frequency to work.

[Kaarlisk]

Originally Posted by mczak

It is also worth noting imho that transistor density went up a bit.

For CPUs, various parts (caches, cores, memory controllers) have different transistor densities.
So did the density go up because they removed the less dense units, or because they removed some extra redundancy due to a more mature 40nm process?

[Jawed]

I measure 36.8mm² of GDDR5 interface (just area for interface pads, "PHY") on RV770. Say 40% bigger than that in Cypress? That's around 15mm².

Hints point to the 17th, redundancy, VLIW-5 block being dropped in Cypress. Texturing is also a bit more complex. LDS is double the capacity, has atomics logic and a more complex read/write infrastructure.

The cores in RV770 are ~41% of the die. The dual-engine nature of Barts must cost quite a bit of extra die space in comparison with RV770's layout, but there's no real way to work that out. No idea how much that would scale with core count.

[Jawed]

Originally Posted by Kaarlisk

So did the density go up because they removed the less dense units, or because they removed some extra redundancy due to a more mature 40nm process?

We all forgot, Cypress gained girth due to doubled vias, supposedly - so that's another thing we can't account for in Barts's diet.

[DavidGraham]

The struggle over HAWX 2 seems to originate from the argument whether to use Adaptive Tessellation or not:

1-Nvidia & Ubisoft say "No"
2-AMD says "Yes"

http://translate.google.com/translat...6870-6850.html

Personally , I think Adaptive Tessellation could be the perfect replacement for LOD ,at least it should solve the annoying problem of geometry and detail pop-ups that plague all games nowadays .

[Harison]

Could Dave enlighten us if we'll see MLAA on 4xxx and 5xxx series cards? Several review sites mentioned its possible.

[BRiT]

Originally Posted by Harison

Could Dave enlighten us if we'll see MLAA on 4xxx and 5xxx series cards? Several review sites mentioned its possible.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=47

[Sontin]

Originally Posted by DavidGraham

The struggle over HAWX 2 seems to originate from the argument whether to use Adaptive Tessellation or not:

1-Nvidia & Ubisoft say "No"
2-AMD says "Yes"

http://translate.google.com/translat...6870-6850.html

Personally , I think Adaptive Tessellation could be the perfect replacement for LOD ,at least it should solve the annoying problem of geometry and detail pop-ups that plague all games nowadays .

I run the benchmark and i think they are using adaptive tessellation. It would make no sense because nVidia is promoting it with their tessellation demos - oh and Stone Giant is using it, too.

Maybe AMD thinks it could be more aggressive.

[Harison]

Originally Posted by BRiT

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=47

Good news Its nice AMD didnt locked it to 6xxx series as another selling point, but rather increases value of all cards, including previous gens.

[brain_stew]

Any shots showing off the MLAA algorithm used in conjunction with MSAA surfaced, yet?

[EduardoS]

Originally Posted by DavidGraham

The struggle over HAWX 2 seems to originate from the argument whether to use Adaptive Tessellation or not:

1-Nvidia & Ubisoft say "No"
2-AMD says "Yes"

http://translate.google.com/translat...6870-6850.html

Personally , I think Adaptive Tessellation could be the perfect replacement for LOD ,at least it should solve the annoying problem of geometry and detail pop-ups that plague all games nowadays .

Wasn't the "Adaptive" part the initial goal of doing tesselation to start with?

[Tamlin]

Originally Posted by brain_stew

Any shots showing off the MLAA algorithm used in conjunction with MSAA surfaced, yet?

Seems its hacked already for 5000 series cards. Gotta love those guy's at 3dcenter!

Here's in English how:
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=331108

[eastmen]

So whats with the new FSAA option ? Will we get it on the 5x00 series ? I don't see either of these cards as a replacement for my 5850 at 5870 speeds if anything its a side step and currently i don't need anything more powerfull for my gaming. It be nice if the new fsaa comes to the 58x0 series , it seems like a really nice thing for eyefinity resolutions

[trinibwoy]

Originally Posted by Harison

Nvidia and their fans are really something Both AMD and Nvidia LOVE tessellation, hell - AMD was the very first to the market (and like 10 years before anyone else if we count first incarnation), the difference comes in benefits vs going overboard (which doesnt really benefit users). Do you see any difference between very good and extreme tessellation in games? My bet is you dont in most cases, if at all.

I find it amusing that as an AMD fan you aren't appalled that in this very thread AMD is telling you that it made more sense to reduce the default filtering quality on 5800 cards because raising the other cards (and the 6800 series) up to the 5800's level would affect more users.....I'm still trying to figure out what Dave was thinking by even making that statement in public. I guess the 5800's texture quality was also overboard and unnecessary.

Anyway, you are proving my point. AMD is complaining/talking/whining about overblown tessellation workloads. Besides the irony that they found themselves in this position in the first place I'm saying instead of talking they should be out leveraging their 7 generations of tessellation hardware experience to influence devs in doing it the right way. You know, doing more than just talking.

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by eastmen

So whats with the new FSAA option ? Will we get it on the 5x00 series ?

Once more, with feeling (it's, in a roundabout way, just a couple of posts above yours):

http://twitter.com/CatalystMaker/statuses/28416950671

[Harison]

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

I find it amusing that as an AMD fan you aren't appalled that in this very thread AMD is telling you that it made more sense to reduce the default filtering quality on 5800 cards because raising the other cards (and the 6800 series) up to the 5800's level would affect more users.....I'm still trying to figure out what Dave was thinking by even making that statement in public. I guess the 5800's texture quality was also overboard and unnecessary.

I'm not AMD fan, btw I'm using Geforce as we speak. I rather find being fan of any company not the wisest approach, but maybe its just me. I'm a fan of innovative technology and its implementations which useful for us

This all filtering issue as I understand they made default quality similar to Nvidia's. But it doesnt affect me, even though I'm planning to get some Radeon (probably Cayman based), because I prefer to have better quality (I always pick HQ settings, regardless if its Geforce or Radeon), and AMD is giving it as well, and even better quality than possible with Nvidia's cards. Plus they give more settings for it, even Carsten mentioned it.

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Anyway, you are proving my point. AMD is complaining/talking/whining about overblown tessellation workloads. Besides the irony that they found themselves in this position in the first place I'm saying instead of talking they should be out leveraging their 7 generations of tessellation hardware experience to influence devs in doing it the right way. You know, doing more than just talking.

So you ignore the big picture (lack of usefulness of extreme tessellation), and blamed AMD's approach as inadequate, and after I showed how AMD's approach is actually a smart one, you twist it around and blame AMD again, that they dont have a bigger influence over devs?

In this particular case (HAWX) AMD did provided help, but Ubisoft refused to use solution which is beneficial to both manufacturers, and preferred to get paycheck (or whatever they are getting) from NV instead. Their choice, and I would rather not have AMD doing the same thing, even if they could afford to. PC market is shrinking, so back-stabbing and dividing the remaining market isnt the brightest way, nor it helps us as end-users.

[fbuffer]

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

I find it amusing that as an AMD fan you aren't appalled that in this very thread AMD is telling you that it made more sense to reduce the default filtering quality on 5800 cards because raising the other cards (and the 6800 series) up to the 5800's level would affect more users.....I'm still trying to figure out what Dave was thinking by even making that statement in public. I guess the 5800's texture quality was also overboard and unnecessary.

Anyway, you are proving my point. AMD is complaining/talking/whining about overblown tessellation workloads. Besides the irony that they found themselves in this position in the first place I'm saying instead of talking they should be out leveraging their 7 generations of tessellation hardware experience to influence devs in doing it the right way. You know, doing more than just talking.

spoken as though right from the pulpit itself.. ironic that as someone who "claims" to be all about choice features that when presented with just that you hop right on the nV supplied talking points yet again.. really you are better than that (or at least you're not Xman)

[DavidGraham]

Originally Posted by Harison

and AMD is giving it as well, and even better quality than possible with Nvidia's cards. Plus they give more settings for it, even Carsten mentioned it.

Nvidia HQ is still superior ..

and there are still some filtering issues in HD 6870 :
http://www.rage3d.com/reviews/video/.../index.php?p=6

[Jawed]

I don't remember ever seeing evidence that Evergreen's angle-independence resulted in superior image quality to NVidia - whereas there is no doubt that the shimmering and visible transition line problems are solely ATI's.

As for whether the HAWX2 tessellation is excessive, we'll have to wait until AMD produces the hack they've promised (or maybe the full game has the AMD code?) for screenshot/movie comparisons.