[standing ovation]

Originally Posted by Nesh

Now that looks real

I don't understand. Why do you guys swoon over screenshots when you know the graphics in-game do not come anywhere near this level of fidelity?

[slapnutz]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

I don't understand. Why do you guys swoon over screenshots when you know the graphics in-game do not come anywhere near this level of fidelity?

Same here. I can understand other sites but I though most people on this site would understanding that what they are showing isnt 100% of the final "actual racing mode" gameplay graphics.

Whats concerning is why T10 arent showing those screenshots yet. I mean, the longer they take, the more i think(partial paranoia) we'll be dissapointed by the end result. That said, I'll be happy with true 720p and x4AA.

[scooby_dooby]

We're all familiar with bullshots around here, but you can still look at what they released last time, and compared to the new shots there are major improvements, they really looks worlds better.

It is pretty lame that they won't release any direct feed gameplay stuff, but they got hammered pretty hard last time for showing early models and tracks so it's understandable.

[Mintmaster]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

I don't understand. Why do you guys swoon over screenshots when you know the graphics in-game do not come anywhere near this level of fidelity?

Look at the bullshots for Forza2. They weren't nearly this good. The reason is that the lighting model (or artistic touch on the parameters) is much better, and that's not going to get worse with the shipping game.

[standing ovation]

Originally Posted by Mintmaster

Look at the bullshots for Forza2. They weren't nearly this good. The reason is that the lighting model (or artistic touch on the parameters) is much better, and that's not going to get worse with the shipping game.

What you guys are doing is like -- it's like flipping through a magazine and saying this model is 'hotter' than that one when both of them are air-brushed! You haven't got a clue what they really look like. And that's okay, provided a publication is as close as you'll ever get to them. But if this is your expectation when you finally meet in person, you will be sweeping up the pieces of your crystal fantasy.

Turn10 is this close to false advertising (my fingers have collapsed to the gate width of ATI’s latest GPU ), but you guys are too busy drooling to even notice. Those Forza 3 pics are forgeries -- err, bullshots -- just like Forza 2. They are photos that have been 'developed' by a non-real-time rendering program and are passed off as in-game pics solely because all of this is occurring within photomode.

Outside of photomode, real-time screen grabs will bring you back to reality.

[Tahir2]

There are streaming videos out there of actual gameplay.

It would be false advertising if it was claimed the shots were of actual gameplay by Turn10. And not many people complain about airbrushed models in the gents magazines. And yea some models are hotter than others even when airbrushed.

[Rangers]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

What you guys are doing is like -- it's like flipping through a magazine and saying this model is 'hotter' than that one when both of them are air-brushed! You haven't got a clue what they really look like. And that's okay, provided a publication is as close as you'll ever get to them. But if this is your expectation when you finally meet in person, you will be sweeping up the pieces of your crystal fantasy.

Turn10 is this close to false advertising (my fingers have collapsed to the gate width of ATI’s latest GPU ), but you guys are too busy drooling to even notice. Those Forza 3 pics are forgeries -- err, bullshots -- just like Forza 2. They are photos that have been 'developed' by a non-real-time rendering program and are passed off as in-game pics solely because all of this is occurring within photomode.

Outside of photomode, real-time screen grabs will bring you back to reality.

It is no different than what every other racing game is doing. It's baloney but it's standard practice by now. In fact it would almost be malpractice on the part of any advertising department to not do this. If you put out real shots, theyre just going to look awful next to the competition's bullshots.

[Mintmaster]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

What you guys are doing is like -- it's like flipping through a magazine and saying this model is 'hotter' than that one when both of them are air-brushed!

Give me one good reason that the bullshots will make a bigger difference in Forza3 than in Forza2.

It's the same as always. Temporal and spatial supersampling, and maybe only the latter. We've seen official videos, we've seen offscreen action. I'll give you 5:1 odds and make a bet with you that the improvement between Forza2 and Forza3 bullshots will be similar to the improvement we see in game.

[standing ovation]

Originally Posted by Tahir2

There are streaming videos out there of actual gameplay.

It would be false advertising if it was claimed the shots were of actual gameplay by Turn10. And not many people complain about airbrushed models in the gents magazines. And yea some models are hotter than others even when airbrushed.

Without professional photography and airbrushing some models -- okay, a lot of models -- just aren't that hot. It is all an illusion, and this is the predicament Forza 3 is in.

[standing ovation]

Originally Posted by Rangers

It is no different than what every other racing game is doing. It's baloney but it's standard practice by now. In fact it would almost be malpractice on the part of any advertising department to not do this. If you put out real shots, theyre just going to look awful next to the competition's bullshots.

It may be standard practice to prop up a game on a few white lies, but trying to hide it behind a bunch of bald-faced ones? Has Turn10 forgotten Truth in Advertising law?

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

Without professional photography and airbrushing some models -- okay, a lot of models -- just aren't that hot. It is all an illusion, and this is the predicament Forza 3 is in.

Same as GT5...so I'm not sure what the brooha over.

Regards,
SB

[standing ovation]

Originally Posted by Mintmaster

Give me one good reason that the bullshots will make a bigger difference in Forza3 than in Forza2.

Well you said it would make a bigger difference didn't you -- isn't that reason enough?

It's the same as always. Temporal and spatial supersampling, and maybe only the latter. We've seen official videos, we've seen offscreen action. I'll give you 5:1 odds and make a bet with you that the improvement between Forza2 and Forza3 bullshots will be similar to the improvement we see in game.

The only thing we can really glean from bullshots is how wonderfully photomode is progressing. And it is obviously progressing quite nicely. Turn10 has a mini Maya on its hands.

[standing ovation]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Same as GT5...so I'm not sure what the brooha over.

Regards,
SB

Gran Turismo marketing and gameplay have a certain parity that Forza 3 totally lacks.

[woundingchaney]

Gran Turismo marketing and gameplay have a certain parity that Forza 3 totally lacks.

I am very much inclined to disagree, but such a comparison is not meant for this board.

It may be standard practice to prop up a game on a few white lies, but trying to hide it behind a bunch of bald-faced ones? Has Turn10 forgotten Truth in Advertising law?

You are blowing this way out of proportion here. You might as well boycott ever major release (or minor release for that matter) in the video game industry because they are all showcased at one time or another by supposed false advertising.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

Gran Turismo marketing and gameplay have a certain parity that Forza 3 totally lacks.

That's a funny one since GT5 PR shots are on the same level with Forza 3 PR shots. And this from someone who likes GT franchise (played 3 in the series) compared to the Forza franchise (played 0 in the series). :P

Anyways, that's for another thread.

Regards,
SB

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

Direct feed footage from the E3 build of the game... doesn't make it look like Turn 10 has been misleading us with their photo-mode screens.

[Acert93]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

Without professional photography and airbrushing some models -- okay, a lot of models -- just aren't that hot. It is all an illusion, and this is the predicament Forza 3 is in.

So you already have made this conclusion? The fact is we do have footage of gameplay it is typical of industry standards in the compare/contrast of media shots versus realtime. But as someone who actually plays the game (not just angling the below) what is clearly obvious is Turn10 has addressed a lot of issues: lighting is improved and looks less flat and many of the exceedingly annoying artifacts are now gone, reflections are better (update rate and seemingly resolution), cars are more detailed and have interiors, the tarmack is more detailed as are the tracks [especially new ones] look substantially better than FM2.

The assets are better and the rendering IQ is better. It is a sizable leap over FM2 and from what we have seen the game, which runs at 60fps already [lest cabin view which should be 60fps] and looks very good compared to other racers. Which is a pretty big feat considering not only that it runs at 60fps but Turn10 has damage modeling as well as custom paintjobs (one less thing to easily bake, adjust visually to match the world better, and performance tweak).

You are going to be hard pressed finding a racing game that doesn't add in some way (whatever you want to call the mode) IQ improvements. This is the whole point of photomodes and low-framerate replay modes so they can add supersampling to clean up edges and textures, use higher level LOD, add motion blur, etc. Actually, there is a WHOLE segment of gamers who want fancy replays as well as cool options to make killer photos. Consumers, you know, want this garbage.

But that is besides the point as we have seen some gameplay footage to compare/contrast. But I don't think that is your complaint...

Originally Posted by standing ovation

Gran Turismo marketing and gameplay have a certain parity that Forza 3 totally lacks.

So THAT is what all your posts are about In THAT case you can start an FM3-vs-GT5 thread!

[Arwin]

Originally Posted by Inquisitive_Idiot

Direct feed footage from the E3 build of the game... doesn't make it look like Turn 10 has been misleading us with their photo-mode screens.

Well not most people on this forum anyway! (I think only the second half is semi-live gameplay by the way, and it seems to be in AI driver mode, because some of the camera positions are rather difficult to keep driving the ideal line in I wager) Lots of aliasing in there right now, also in the car select screens, but that could also be the recording quality. Anyway, I'm going back to 'we'll see when it gets out'. I'll probably buy it, like I bought Forza 1 and 2, but I'm not holding my breath just yet.

[slapnutz]

Originally Posted by Arwin

Well not most people on this forum anyway! (I think only the second half is semi-live gameplay by the way, and it seems to be in AI driver mode, because some of the camera positions are rather difficult to keep driving the ideal line in I wager) Lots of aliasing in there right now, also in the car select screens, but that could also be the recording quality. Anyway, I'm going back to 'we'll see when it gets out'. I'll probably buy it, like I bought Forza 1 and 2, but I'm not holding my breath just yet.

Heh, I would be one of those people.

However, I did download that vid of youtube and played it at 100% res @ 1280x720 and it appeared to be either really badly compressed or simply re-encoded from a lower res. (that said I dunno how youtube behaves with auto-encoding).

Basically, it wasnt clear enought to draw conclusions. All that aside, I'll just be happy with 4xAA when racing.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

Gran Turismo marketing and gameplay have a certain parity that Forza 3 totally lacks.

These promotional shots are created in game, just with higher than gameplay IQ. The lighting, shading, shadowing, models, scenery etc. are all what you will experience in game while driving. GT and Forza behave exactly the same in this regard, so if it's acceptible for GT, it is for Forza.

Anyone with any 'gaming sense' will know to look at the screenshots and understand it'll be that but with jaggies. There's no false advertising beyond what's usual for advertising across industries (how many decades have washing powders supposedly been getting 'perfect' results and yet also being improved?!). Anyone wanting to actually discuss game advertising (which means wanting to post about it here ) needs to create a thread for it; this one is for Forza 3.

[Iron Tiger]

It's becoming impossible for me to appreciate any of the artistic choices they're making with Forza 3 when they keep talking about how they are shooting for realisim. To me, PGR3 and 4 present more realistic visuals than Forza 3, and I'd have rather they licensed that engine and made whatever improvements or cutbacks necessary to get it running at 60fps. I've thought it from the moment I first saw it at E309, but Forza 3's graphics style would be more at home in a Ridge Racer game than a simulation.

[standing ovation]

Originally Posted by Joshua Luna

So you already have made this conclusion? The fact is we do have footage of gameplay it is typical of industry standards in the compare/contrast of media shots versus realtime.

The startlingly realistic images that are being shown aren't even close to what we are seeing in-game. Everything I have posted here hinges on that statement.

I pointed out how odd it seemed that you guys, knowing this, could still be enamored by them. I mean it would be totally different if they were screen dumps and you were dissecting all of its graphical complexities. (This is what you guys normally do, isn't it?)

But these pictures were being compared with marketing props from the previous title with the implication that, because they appear to be more realistic, they must have been authored by a better game. And to this I merely stated that we really don't know if the game has improved significantly; what we do know is that Photo Mode has!

That Forza 3 is unable to put these pictures into motion is a HUGE disappointment. I'll admit that. Given all of the new technologies we have been hearing about, it seemed like a foregone conclusion.

On the flip-side, seeing Turn10 embrace a Wii philosophy (everybody can have fun) is genuinely shocking. An inclusive sim should be more attractive to more buyers. It's a good move, a very good move.

[Acert93]

Originally Posted by standing ovation

The startlingly realistic images that are being shown aren't even close to what we are seeing in-game. Everything I have posted here hinges on that statement.

I pointed out how odd it seemed that you guys, knowing this, could still be enamored by them. I mean it would be totally different if they were screen dumps and you were dissecting all of its graphical complexities. (This is what you guys normally do, isn't it?)

But these pictures were being compared with marketing props from the previous title with the implication that, because they appear to be more realistic, they must have been authored by a better game. And to this I merely stated that we really don't know if the game has improved significantly; what we do know is that Photo Mode has!

But they aren't only showing shots. They have had a number of public play tests.

That Forza 3 is unable to put these pictures into motion is a HUGE disappointment. I'll admit that. Given all of the new technologies we have been hearing about, it seemed like a foregone conclusion.

First we don't know, now we are certain they are unable to... Truly, your posts are amazing.

If you really want to make a convincing arguement why not pick out some of the examples (e.g. artifacting with the lighting creating small white dots on the car reflections) where FM2 was inferior and FM3 looks much better. This has clearly been addressed, not just by the still shots (FM2 ones had this issue as well) but also the gameplay media.

When people say lighting, reflections (e.g. resoluton an update rate), and tarmack detail are improved we aren't the just making this judgment from the still shots... but you are a moving target and as you pointed out earlier the rant really is all about GT5 and I ain't going there in this thread. But like I said, IQ improvements and photomods aren't exclusive to FM2/3 and are in fact a stable in the industry--especially racers.

On the flip-side, seeing Turn10 embrace a Wii philosophy (everybody can have fun) is genuinely shocking. An inclusive sim should be more attractive to more buyers. It's a good move, a very good move.

Accessiblity is (a) smart and (b) something FM2 already did. Maybe you really didn't play the game but it had all sorts of variables where you could turn off all the assists or turn them all on, turn off damage, and off you go with a more serious arcade racing game that was simple to drive.

If anything it shows that Turn10 is aware of the market and evolves the product. Every realease has built on the last. This time around it isn't just single button racing and "rewind" but they also have a clutch now and more simulation in their model, as well as middle grounds like rollover (relevant to casuals and simmers). IMO the thing they seem to have taken to heart though was making the experience more fun for more people. The amount of work in the SP and MP mode, while just feature change and expanding how the game plays, is important to gamers. A better core game is the most important part of accessibility.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by Joshua Luna

But they aren't only showing shots. They have had a number of public play tests.

And to add to that I have yet to see any public outcry from people that have actually played the game.

Apparently to anyone that's actually played it so far, the visuals live up to the hype. The only major complaint so far is that it appears to be 30 fps in cockpit view and in 3 display mode.

Regards,
SB

[Lucid_Dreamer]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

And to add to that I have yet to see any public outcry from people that have actually played the game.

Apparently to anyone that's actually played it so far, the visuals live up to the hype. The only major complaint so far is that it appears to be 30 fps in cockpit view and in 3 display mode.

Regards,
SB

That could be true. Then, again, why would they complain if the visuals are better than FM2? One thing is for sure, silence doesn't confirm or deny a thing.