[Rangers]

Engadget

Combine with this by Don Matrick

"Microsoft is gearing up for a big presence at E3 which will completely transform how people think about home entertainment. We're excited about the momentum that is building in the industry in anticipation of our June 1st media briefing, which will kick off E3 in blockbuster style."

The bolded part strongly suggests to me more than simply showing more hardcore games.

Further, rumors at E3 2008 specifically mentioned a "minority report style" interface for 360. Of course those rumors didn't pan out, just as these might not, but it certainly dovetails with the new Engadget rumor.

Edit: I suppose this might be more appropriate for the console forum? I'm not sure, mods move as fit..

[grandmaster]

I've no doubt that it's real. However, I'm equally in no doubt that Microsoft has a penchant for hyperbole: http://www.vg247.com/2008/10/16/gree...ternet”/

[Quaz51]

3D camera

[NRP]

I think all the hoopla about "motion sensing" controls is ridiculous . . . just hype to start a new fad, or to try and jump on the Wii bandwagon. Unless we're talking about virtual reality controls, all this motion sensing buzz won't lead anywhere, at least not for MS and Sony.

[Shifty Geezer]

IMO it won't lead anywhere for MS full-stop, no matter how great it is, because they have no capacity to deliver on novel control schemes. Their camera games are a flop. Their microphone game is a flop. They haven't managed to get anything interesting going in the peripheral front. Sony haven't been too successful this gen, but at least have EyeToy and some motion sensing going for them. But MS have nothing. Best case, they'll have a new tech that can follow movement, then create some shambolic game that is no fun and everyone will bypass it. The only hope for MS to get something novel and worth using is to find some 3rd party who's already got a fabulous track record and buy them.

Such as my view, I have zero excitement for this rumour, because I expect it to amount to nothing. I have similar expectations of the rumoured PS3 3D motion seventeenaxis controller.

[BadTB25]

I have to agree.

I'll try to keep an open mind about it, but I have almost zero excitement about this rumour.

[AzBat]

I have more excitement for the Gametrak Freedom motion controller than this. I still want something in my hand to control. Just using your hands or arms doesn't thrill me as much.

Tommy McClain

[Inquisitive_Idiot]

Has it been confirmed that there will be in fact no motion controller to go along with this device? If this is just some EyeToy type device than I am not that interested in it, however, if it mixes EyeToy with WiiMote and other 3D motion sensing capabilities then that would be pretty interesting.

Like several others mentioned earlier in the thread, Microsoft probably does not have the first party capability to create unique or even revolutionary games like Nintendo did with the Wii ______ series games. What I think they might attempt to do is make a WiiMote, EyeToy type device and attach a Halo game to it (the Peter Jackson game anyone) and let the third parties do the rest from there on out. If it is a device intended to replace traditional controllers on the 360, then we may even see it have some backwards compatibility features. Playing Halo 3 with IR would be great, and I could see them bundling it with Halo ODST to attract people.

EDIT: Just read the Engadget article and yeah it does specifically mention an absense of a controller, which does not make sense to me. For instance, how would you aim in an FPS, or how would you move your character around the world in a game with this device?

[AzBat]

The quote which will completely transform how people think about home entertainment to me means it's no way geared for hardcore players. So it not having a controller would fit. I still think it's a bad idea even for the casual player. If they're trying to get the Wii demographic without a remote like controller, they will most doubtedly fail.

Tommy McClain

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Inquisitive_Idiot

For instance, how would you aim in an FPS, or how would you move your character around the world in a game with this device?

As AzBat mentions, not for the existing userbase at all. Something for Wii-games. I fear really tacky party games, an 'At The Movies' style implementation of WiiSports that has the player waving their arms around and the character on-screen vaguely glitching in response.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by AzBat

The quote which will completely transform how people think about home entertainment to me means it's no way geared for hardcore players. So it not having a controller would fit. I still think it's a bad idea even for the casual player. If they're trying to get the Wii demographic without a remote like controller, they will most doubtedly fail.

Tommy McClain

However, if they can get the control "good enough" it would be a hit for Fitness type games. Imagine something like Wii Fit except with complete freedom from a controller that you have to physically use. It would certainly be a far better fitness program, but will they be able to capture the imagination of casuals that the Wii does?

Or some of the more casual genre's that are a hit on the Wii. I can see where this might be particularly well suited to social party type games.

Combine that with the lower price of the X360 arcade and you can see why MS might be trying really hard to dip into that.

I'll have the wait and see though. I'm as skeptical about this as I was about the whole Wii motion control gimmick before it was implemented.

So just like Wii Motion controls (prior to Wii actually being released), I don't think it has much appeal. But who knows maybe it'll surprise me like the Wii ended up doing.

Imagine surfing the web completely by hand gestures. Grabbing and moving elements of the X360 UI with your hand from your couch. Fast forward a movie with a wave of your hand. Pausing a movie/music track but sticking your hand out palm out (like you would using your hand to indicate someone should stop).

The potential is there for something completely revolutionary and world changing. I have serious doubts as to whether MS (or Sony, or Nintendo) can implement something like that at this time.

Regards,
SB

[Rendszer]

Well, the engadget rumour coupled with the one below can make sense:

http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming...han-wii-532845
-----

Now, let´s see how this pans out, but if true and if handled correctly, it can make the Xbox arcade + this pack like a sweet deal compared to the wii.

Now its all about the software..

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

However, if they can get the control "good enough" it would be a hit for Fitness type games. Imagine something like Wii Fit except with complete freedom from a controller that you have to physically use. It would certainly be a far better fitness program, but will they be able to capture the imagination of casuals that the Wii does?

http://www.eyetoykinetic.com/en_GB/index.html

Imagine surfing the web completely by hand gestures. Grabbing and moving elements of the X360 UI with your hand from your couch. Fast forward a movie with a wave of your hand. Pausing a movie/music track but sticking your hand out palm out (like you would using your hand to indicate someone should stop).

Well that to a good degree (theoretically and in-the-laboratory) is already attainable with the XB camera. The primary issue with the listed features is background removal, so only the player has control. It was interesting prior to 'At The Movies' that the EyeToy crew said background removal didn't work, and were proven right. Sony have been tooting Minority Report interfaces longer than anyone without ever delivering, so I guess it's hard to pull off. MS must have something very advanced to manage this, and given that they said they had background removal working in 'At The Movies' when they patently didn't, and LIPS registers a perfect scores for scraping the microphone over the carpet, I can't say I'm confident whatever system they present will actually work.

[Graham]

At first I had a similar reaction to what many others here probably had.. One of concern this was just going to be a gimmick.

However I'm actually coming round to it's potential.
The point I realised 'hey, this might just work' was while watching this video for ArmA II for the PC. It all comes down to what peoples expectations are for the uses of the tech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ (Highly recommended watch).

They also made me think of the old wii hack videos, of changing perspective.
Something like this wouldn't be a play for the casual market, and really, really could be a game changer. It all depends on the implementations and accuracy.

[grandmaster]

Aren't there rumours of Fight Night Round 4 compatibility? Might be an interesting comparison with Wii Sports boxing.

Otherwise I generally agree that Microsoft doesn't have Nintendo or Sony's experience in producing truly mainstream games.

[pc999]

It could be a very interesting device, leading to great games, but if it is just what they say it seems to have litle potential for refining hardercore games.

Anyway it seems really interesting.

[patsu]

I think anything that simplifies gaming is a move in the right direction.

Things to get gamers to exercise more is a plus too

Originally Posted by Graham

At first I had a similar reaction to what many others here probably had.. One of concern this was just going to be a gimmick.

However I'm actually coming round to it's potential.
The point I realised 'hey, this might just work' was while watching this video for ArmA II for the PC. It all comes down to what peoples expectations are for the uses of the tech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ (Highly recommended watch).

If the view panning is very responsive, it can be useful. Otherwise it may take extra time to align your aim to where you look. In a hot zone, I'd just move and aim where I look. Flight games would be the best fit since there are ample space and time for manuveure (I believe Warhawk implemented independent view mechanics using SIXAXIS, but it's more clunky)

Independent head movement may also be great for exploration and puzzle solving games too (like Uncharted !). So I think it can be interesting for traditional (hardcore or not) video games if used correctly.

They also made me think of the old wii hack videos, of changing perspective.
Something like this wouldn't be a play for the casual market, and really, really could be a game changer. It all depends on the implementations and accuracy.

I think it all depends on the application and whether MS markets this at the fundamental level.

PS Eye does motion sensing pretty well (though not as responsive as I liked). They released PS Eye head tracking a couple of months ago (e.g., in a sample Quiz show game). But if it's just an isolated application, the impact would be unnecessarily subdued.

For full body motion, it's rather tiring to play on a big screen (compared to a regular LCD monitor) because *unexpectedly* larger movement is needed. We ended up having 4-5 grown ups playing Operation: Creature Feature (each responsible for different sections on the screen because it's back breaking after 10 or so minutes). But it's good exercise.

I think going after WiiSports and WiiFit mechanics (Yoga, tennis, bowling, golf, assorted dancing, ...) would be a good start.


EDIT: Hmm... I can't find my post now. Back when PS Eye was announced, I suggested using colored ribbons (or sticky dots) to attach to human and objects for tracking actions. I think it allows for more fun and flexibility because you're not restricted to traditional movements and equipments (e.g., using my wife's real guitar for playing Guitar Hero, business model issues aside).

[BadTB25]

Originally Posted by Graham

At first I had a similar reaction to what many others here probably had.. One of concern this was just going to be a gimmick.

However I'm actually coming round to it's potential.
The point I realised 'hey, this might just work' was while watching this video for ArmA II for the PC. It all comes down to what peoples expectations are for the uses of the tech:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ (Highly recommended watch).

They also made me think of the old wii hack videos, of changing perspective.
Something like this wouldn't be a play for the casual market, and really, really could be a game changer. It all depends on the implementations and accuracy.

The vid was very impressive. I wish they had a really good heli game for the 360/PS3.

I wonder how much neck strain would occur after prolonged play with device. It's also why I'm not sold on a body motion device. When I play games, I tend to vegetate out on a recliner with little movement except for my hands.

A device like a body motion device may be good for short play sessions or parties, but without a controller ala the Wii, would it have to recalibrate after each player?

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by BadTB25

The vid was very impressive. I wish they had a really good heli game for the 360/PS3.

I wonder how much neck strain would occur after prolonged play with device. It's also why I'm not sold on a body motion device. When I play games, I tend to vegetate out on a recliner with little movement except for my hands.

A device like a body motion device may be good for short play sessions or parties, but without a controller ala the Wii, would it have to recalibrate after each player?

Presumably for them to make this work there would have to be something that can distinguish fingers, hands, arms, legs, head at the very least. And not only that but to isolate it with regards to anything else that might be moving in the field of view, like other people, pets, fans, whatever...

If it can do that, I'm not sure it would require any calibration since it would need to be able to distinguish these features (and track them) regardless of size or orientation.

I'm just not sold that MS can pull this off well enough to be used for games. Especially if they want to use it for somewhat precise Minority Report type controls.

But if they could, then I'll be hoping it comes to the PC also. Who needs a remote if you can just control Vista/Win7 from the comfort of your counch using just your hands and fingers.

Imagine, multi-touch, except remotely in mid air. Now THAT could be considered quite revolutionary and as Microsoft says, "completely transform how people think about home entertainment."

Regards,
SB

[zRifle1z]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Presumably for them to make this work there would have to be something that can distinguish fingers, hands, arms, legs, head at the very least. And not only that but to isolate it with regards to anything else that might be moving in the field of view, like other people, pets, fans, whatever...

If it can do that, I'm not sure it would require any calibration since it would need to be able to distinguish these features (and track them) regardless of size or orientation.

I'm just not sold that MS can pull this off well enough to be used for games. Especially if they want to use it for somewhat precise Minority Report type controls.

But if they could, then I'll be hoping it comes to the PC also. Who needs a remote if you can just control Vista/Win7 from the comfort of your counch using just your hands and fingers.

Imagine, multi-touch, except remotely in mid air. Now THAT could be considered quite revolutionary and as Microsoft says, "completely transform how people think about home entertainment."

Regards,
SB

I hope this helps:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zd9_V...eature=related

[Shifty Geezer]

To me, the most important thing about that video clip, is it was posted over a year ago. So where's the tech now? We've seen similar from Sony for several years now, showing it work fantastically. If it works that well, why isn't it out in the general public? I'm guessing there are issues that stop it working effectively. eg. With the original EyeToy, IIRC the idea was much older but the technology wasn't there to work in low-light (living-room) conditions, so the had to wait for a suitable camera to be developed. In development it worked perfectly in brightly lit, showcase situations, but failed in the home. Likewise 'You're in the Movies' was demo'd working in an unrealistic setting. Eurogamer's review had them struggling to get it to operate.

Because none of this tech is new, and yet still isn't mainstream, it must be very hard to achieve a robust response - the reason why the EyeToy crew didn't go with background subtraction. What is this system going to do differently to overcome these issues?

[deepbrown]

Sounds like the thing Sony was talking about with the PS3Eye. Turns out they needed a LED waggle to be able to use it properly.

[zRifle1z]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

To me, the most important thing about that video clip, is it was posted over a year ago. So where's the tech now? "snip".....

Because none of this tech is new, and yet still isn't mainstream, it must be very hard to achieve a robust response - the reason why the EyeToy crew didn't go with background subtraction. What is this system going to do differently to overcome these issues?

The company/technology now belongs to Microsoft:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04...osoft_3dv_mou/

IMHO you will probably get to know how far it has advanced at this years E3.

As far as I know the camera uses various shades of white to black, along with other indicators, to determine your movements as opposed to what ever is in your back ground. I cannot find the link, but it some how uses the colors to track depth as well.

EDIT:

Found this:
http://www.3dvsystems.com/news/ZCam%...2007%20(3).pdf

"ZCam™ offers real-time depth imaging at 60 frames per second, eliminating any perceived latency. The low CPU consumption of the unit means that gamers will not drain their systems of processing power. ZCam™ boasts the highest resolution on the market and since the camera works independent of lighting conditions, it will work flawlessly in any room, night or day."

[Crossbar]

Originally Posted by zRifle1z

The company/technology now belongs to Microsoft:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/04...osoft_3dv_mou/

That´s not the company in the video clip.

Anyway I am pretty excited about how it will work, it would allow for some pretty advanced eye-toy like games. For any kind of excersise game it sounds like a perfect fit.

[Quaz51]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

To me, the most important thing about that video clip, is it was posted over a year ago. So where's the tech now? We've seen similar from Sony for several years now, showing it work fantastically. If it works that well, why isn't it out in the general public? I'm guessing there are issues that stop it working effectively. eg. With the original EyeToy, IIRC the idea was much older but the technology wasn't there to work in low-light (living-room) conditions, so the had to wait for a suitable camera to be developed. In development it worked perfectly in brightly lit, showcase situations, but failed in the home. Likewise 'You're in the Movies' was demo'd working in an unrealistic setting. Eurogamer's review had them struggling to get it to operate.

Because none of this tech is new, and yet still isn't mainstream, it must be very hard to achieve a robust response - the reason why the EyeToy crew didn't go with background subtraction. What is this system going to do differently to overcome these issues?

3D camera is a really new fascinating technologie with new possibility
eyeToy/Pseye is calssic 2D camera