[Antan]

Originally Posted by patsu

What were you fighting ? ^_^

I think the Home team should do a meta-game on Demon's Souls. Will explain more in the Home thread later.

EDIT:
I just saw the GoW III screens. Your next-gen visual wish will be granted there.

The Phlanax...........and his little minnions! ......

[patsu]

Ah, the real Demon's Souls starts after the death of the Phalanx since you can level up now.

[deathindustrial]

Played this game last night for a couple of hours. I understand the attraction folks have to it (this post is not a diss of the game in its entirety) but I am surprised that there hasn't been much mention of the really awkward lock-on system and controls.

The most common thread I have seen is that the game is hard but fair, tough but not cheap. Well, I find that the controls and camera lead to a lot of cheap deaths due to not being able to actually target your enemy properly or accidentally walking off a ledge because the camera gets swung around at the wrong moment. I chose the "royal" as my character based on recommendations and the magic blast power (forget the name) is basically useless unless you can target an enemy as there is no reticule and the direction of fire seems based on a point somewhere near the end of the animation sequence that gets trivially moved off target. Targeting using a standard sword is also twitchy and even when totally surrounded with a monster closet of baddies in a section of 1-1 after falling off a ledge the sword did not seem to actually find any of them much of the time - the targeting seemed to become somewhat confused. I survived via multiple taps of "o" but the whole sequence did not strike me as fair.

The menu interface is a minor annoyance with its forced use of the D pad. Also, having to lock on with R3 seems like a bad choice since your movement also relies on that stick (which means that your position gets changed). The targeting system also has a finite distance which seems too short considering that you can see the enemy clearly. The character animations also seem to be non-interruptible which leads to death while taking health packs which is the definition of cheap. Another camera issue is that when moving in tight spaces it is pulled too far back. There is a spot early on in 1-1 where you have to walk through a doorway which has monsters waiting out of sight. Even after you know it's coming, the camera makes it difficult to react properly because it is hard to swing it around to get a decent enough view to target and then attack.

On a separate note, the manual is absolutely useless on how saves work in this game. I played the game for 2 or 3 hours so far, read the manual and still have no idea what I need to do (if anything) to save my game progress. That's a core enough thing that I should not have to Wiki it to find out.

On the plus side, anyone else reminded of Ico by this game?

Cheers

[Gradthrawn]

Originally Posted by deathindustrial

On a separate note, the manual is absolutely useless on how saves work in this game. I played the game for 2 or 3 hours so far, read the manual and still have no idea what I need to do (if anything) to save my game progress. That's a core enough thing that I should not have to Wiki it to find out.

On the plus side, anyone else reminded of Ico by this game?

Cheers

That confused me at first too. Then again, I had the import version so I didn't even bother trying to read the manual. Anyway, you don't do anything to save (just quit from the menu when you're done). Keep that in mind before doing something stupid, like hitting an NPC you might need later. Better yet, keep that in mind when doing anything around NPCs.

Also keep in mind that the game is still live when you're in the menu (in case you didn't notice already). It's best to just quit if you need to walk away. You'll start back right where you left off (including killed enemies). When you're outside of the Nexus, that is.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by deathindustrial

The most common thread I have seen is that the game is hard but fair, tough but not cheap. Well, I find that the controls and camera lead to a lot of cheap deaths due to not being able to actually target your enemy properly or accidentally walking off a ledge because the camera gets swung around at the wrong moment. I chose the "royal" as my character based on recommendations and the magic blast power (forget the name) is basically useless unless you can target an enemy as there is no reticule and the direction of fire seems based on a point somewhere near the end of the animation sequence that gets trivially moved off target. Targeting using a standard sword is also twitchy and even when totally surrounded with a monster closet of baddies in a section of 1-1 after falling off a ledge the sword did not seem to actually find any of them much of the time - the targeting seemed to become somewhat confused. I survived via multiple taps of "o" but the whole sequence did not strike me as fair.

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...3&postcount=80

Combat control is smooth and easy. R3 targeting needs some pre-planning and practices. Need to play a few more rounds to see if I can switch target easily. Every small enemy is worthy and fun because the combat feels natural and impactful.

Targeting takes some getting used to but it's not a big problem for me. Usually I plan my route of attack. In subsequent levels, you'll have enemies distracting you off the cliff. It's better to kill them first before crossing the ledge.

The Soul Arrow's range is limited. You need to get closer to the enemy to target it. The game won't let you off so easily with a long range weapon until later in the game. It's rather scary to try to close in on a fierce enemy to fire Soul Arrows. This prevents you from cheesing the monster too easily. I love the tension. Later, you can use a bow which allows you to target enemies further away, and using FPS view (with a reticule) too; but not now. Note that the crossbow does not have a reticule also. You need a normal bow for that.

If you start as a hunter, you'd get a normal bow at the beginning though. However you'll need to spend Souls to buy arrows. Royal is great not only because of Soul Arrow and MP regen ring. It has a low Soul Level, so you can level up quicker and adjust your character stats early to suit your play style.

The targeting works very well for enemies in general, especially when you face a fast rolling skeleton later. Your character will swing around automatically to hit the nimble enemies. If enemies are bunched together, they will all take damage when you swing at one of them.

The menu interface is a minor annoyance with its forced use of the D pad. Also, having to lock on with R3 seems like a bad choice since your movement also relies on that stick (which means that your position gets changed). The targeting system also has a finite distance which seems too short considering that you can see the enemy clearly. The character animations also seem to be non-interruptible which leads to death while taking health packs which is the definition of cheap.

It's how the game is designed. Once you know the rules, you'll have to plan your attack around the rules. The tension are all built around known rules. Whether you accept them or can manage them or not depends on you. There are enemies who can heal themselves too (and yes, they'd be stationary for you to hit). So in that sense, it's fair. There is no advantage given to them or you in the actual action.

Also, note that a character who is out of stamina may not respond to your action. Along the way, you may have to adjust your melee style and pattern based on enemies and your equipment. The game has a sense of weight built around the equipments you use (and your character stats). If you wear a light armor, you will be quicker. The starting Royal is not bad, but not the fastest either.

Targeting range depends on weapon type. You're only a level 1 character facing low level monsters. You may not want to expect super-human ability. The Soul Arrow is already a one-hit kill weapon for most enemies in 1-1.

Another camera issue is that when moving in tight spaces it is pulled too far back. There is a spot early on in 1-1 where you have to walk through a doorway which has monsters waiting out of sight. Even after you know its coming, the camera makes it difficult to react properly because it is hard to swing it around to get a decent enough view to target and then attack.

Sometimes, the game will intentionally design enemies in places you can't see to get you into trouble. The only safe way is to lure them out. In a new area, I always proceed extremely cautiously around corners or through a door. Usually, there'd be blood stains and player messages to warn you anyway.

On a separate note, the manual is absolutely useless on how saves work in this game. I played the game for 2 or 3 hours so far, read the manual and still have no idea what I need to do (if anything) to save my game progress. That's a core enough thing that I should not have to Wiki it to find out.

Yes, the game is in need of a thick manual. The deluxe edition has a guide that is extremely helpful. Demon's Souls is a very deep game. Concepts like World Tendency online/offline is specific to the game and requires explanation and experimentations.

As for saving, I found it without problem. It's the last icon when you press > (Start). You return to the exact same spot you saved the game. So you don't have to worry about restarting from the last check point. The game also autosaves whenever you die or make a change.

EDIT: Regarding enemies hiding around corners, there will be a spell for you to rid them later. Now they are only low level monsters, might want to use the opportunities to tackle them. You'll need to face the bosses some day.

[deathindustrial]

Originally Posted by patsu

As for saving, I found it without problem. It's the last icon when you press > (Start). You return to the exact same spot you saved the game. So you don't have to worry about restarting from the last check point. The game also autosaves whenever you die or make a change.

Hey Patsu. There is no "save" option under that menu. The choices are just: "options", "load profile" and "quit game".

As an aside, what are the "fog" doorways for? I might have missed it but didn't see anything in the manual abut them and it was not clear from the gameplay what was different either.

Cheers

[patsu]

Originally Posted by deathindustrial

Hey Patsu. There is no "save" option under that menu. The choices are just: "options", "load profile" and "quit game".

Ah... quit game saves the game and exit. ^_^

As an aside, what are the "fog" doorways for? I might have missed it but didn't see anything in the manual abut them and it was not clear from the gameplay what was different either.

It is the next area. Enter it. Once you enter a fogged door, it will remain open for the rest of the game.

Some of them leads to boss battles.

EDIT: deathindustrial, you might want to watch the video Yemeth posted. It contains helpful walkthrough to get some useful equipments in 1-1 and subsequent levels.

[patsu]

deathindustrial, I want to take back one thing I said before.

"You are a level 1 character facing low level enemies"

The above statement is not true in Demon's Souls. It is important to realize this. The game mixes high level monsters even in introductory stages regardless of your character level. Usually you'd be warned by player messages and sometimes, blood stains. The (red eyed ?) knight wielding the lance on the bridge and the dragons in 1-2 are good examples. There are ways to kill/trick them even when you're only an entry level character. But it is not wise to challenge them head on. In Demon's Souls, don't be ashamed to run away. Running away is a valid tactic, and sometimes the only answer.

You don't have to kill them to progress. You can come back later to tackle them. The knight guards the entrance to an optional sidequest. The dragon is an environmental hazard that you can get rid of to simplify the game later. I killed the red dragon with a mix of bow and Soul Arrows before I attempted to cross the 1-2 bridge. I heard it's a b*tch to cross the last segment of the bridge with the dragon alive. So I nailed it in the second segment.


Also, events in the game is affected by World Tendency (White, Black or in-betweens). Some monsters appear as a phantom or don't appear at all in certain World Tendency. Some special items can only be retrieved in Pure White/Black Tendency. When you play online, your World Tendency will be affected by all the collective players' worlds.

[patsu]

Yemeth, I found 16 copies of Demon's Souls in Fry's this afternoon while hunting for Afrika. My GameStop has a few copies too. So the new stock seems to be in now.

[oramay]

I'm about to start the assassination quest. Does anyone know if I'm requested to kill person B, and then I watch him killed by other enemies, do I still get reward for his death? Do I still get to proceed to the next assassination target?

Regarding the lock on camera swing etc., I think choosing when to toggle lock on and lock off is seen as an important skill to master in this game. Well, at least the wiki and a guide says so and I agree.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by oramay

I'm about to start the assassination quest. Does anyone know if I'm requested to kill person B, and then I watch him killed by other enemies, do I still get reward for his death? Do I still get to proceed to the next assassination target?

I read in GAF that some guy lured a group of monsters to kill Ostrava . That way his Character Tendency didn't change (He wanted to stay White). He didn't mention the assassination quest though. If you want, you can tell me all the details and I can ask there. There are a lot more DS experts on GAF compared to B3D.

Regarding the lock on camera swing etc., I think choosing when to toggle lock on and lock off is seen as an important skill to master in this game. Well, at least the wiki and a guide says so and I agree.

Yeah... targeting can be frustrating in 2-* because of wandering NPCs. 4-* is dangerous because of flying enemies. The player has to be very careful in managing the targeting wherever he goes. But it's helpful when fighting fast enemies.

[patsu]

deathindustrial, I saw a screen shot of the bow reticule on GAF today:



Press L1 to enter this view (After pressing L1 to equip it).
You'll need a strength of 12 to wield one. The better bows will require higher strength.

Your arrow count is at bottom left.


It's very similar to the new controller's archery demo.

EDIT: The compound long bow is pretty powerful when upgraded. You can kill some bosses with it if you don't want to get your hands dirty (like me !). The game won't let you shoot at leisure, so you'll have to dodge incoming danger. Nonetheless, it's much safer than tackling them toe-to-toe.

[Akumajou]

Originally Posted by deathindustrial

~snip

If you were to lock on to something in real life with a sword and shield, chances are that you will never be able to keep up with yourself and get killed if the enemy moved to evade your death blow.

Basically lock on should not mean forever lock on, thats cheating, aka cheap.

[deathindustrial]

The problem though is that the controls are too clunky (especially combined with the camera) to be able to reliably target the enemies. Presumably this is why they decided to toss in the autolock function - combat was too frustrating and random without it.

I played a few more hours last night and I died more than once due to forgetting to trigger the target lock and this causing my attack to miss. Combine that with the camera having major issues in confined spaces and you get some cheap deaths for happening sure. When a monster is directly in front of you and you shoot magic at it or swing your sword but the animation and camera causes you to land far to the left, I call that cheap.

=)

My point is not that I necessarily want target lock, it is that the game is designed around it and I feel the implementation is not the best. I would personally prefer it if the game was first person so the camera issues would be less pronounced and so that the character animations would not cause the unpredictable targeting they do now (if you haven't managed to get the target lock enabled).

Maybe once I figure out how to reliably change the targeted enemy it will be less death inducing when I am being mobbed.

On an unrelated note, where are your experience points shown in the HUD? The Wiki and manual (I think) mentions them but I have been unable to find them in game.

Cheers

[patsu]

Originally Posted by deathindustrial

The problem though is that the controls are too clunky (especially combined with the camera) to be able to reliably target the enemies. Presumably this is why they decided to toss in the autolock function - combat was too frustrating and random without it.

Like most posters in the GAF DS thread, I actually like the controls. ^_^
It's smooth and intuitive. Also didn't use autolock for slower enemies.

Autolock is helpful for fast enemies, but necessary for ranged attack (except in FPS view).
It works very well for boss fights so far. The system can get into trouble if you have many small enemies running around though. In which case, you need to manage your fight carefully, or solve the problem in other ways.

I played a few more hours last night and I died more than once due to forgetting to trigger the target lock and this causing my attack to miss. Combine that with the camera having major issues in confined spaces and you get some cheap deaths for happening sure. When a monster is directly in front of you and you shoot magic at it or swing your sword but the animation and camera causes you to land far to the left, I call that cheap.

=)

You can call it whatever you want.

Which level are you in now ? The camera does block my view sometimes, but it's not a big problem so far, even in a confined space. In fact, I don't die from camera issues at all. My deaths are mostly caused by rolling off a cliff while dodging attack; or got chopped into pieces because I lost stamina or someone broke my guard. ^_^

My point is not that I necessarily want target lock, it is that the game is designed around it and I feel the implementation is not the best. I would personally prefer it if the game was first person so the camera issues would be less pronounced and so that the character animations would not cause the unpredictable targeting they do now (if you haven't managed to get the target lock enabled).

Hmm... but I want to see my armor and character design in third person view. First person view may also be more frustrating since I can't see the enemies behind or around me.

The current view allows me to manage fighting better.

Maybe once I figure out how to reliably change the targeted enemy it will be less death inducing when I am being mobbed.

Why are you getting mobbed in the first place ? When you saved Ostrava, I remembered you jumped into the group of Dreglings to fight them ? I saw a video where some guy did that, he was able to lay down the entire group very quickly. For me, I simply Soul Arrowed most of them to death and then took down the remaining 1-2 guy.

On an unrelated note, where are your experience points shown in the HUD? The Wiki and manual (I think) mentions them but I have been unable to find them in game.

You mean your Soul Level ? Or the amount of Souls you gained to upgrade ? If it's the latter, it's at the bottom right.

[patsu]

You might want to check out this video Yemeth posted:



It shows you the important items to get when starting out.

He seems pretty good at managing the camera. The camera is controlled by your right thumbstick anyway. You can adjust it if you don't like the view. If you press it down, you lock on. Press it again if you don't want locking. When autolock is on, you lose camera control. Give it up to get the camera back.

At 3:00, He jumped into the horde of Dreglings to save Ostrava. Look at how he take them down without autolock.

EDIT:
I remember you're using a Royal. Your primary weapon would be the Rapier. It has piercing action instead of swinging. So your damage area will be smaller. This may be the problem. If you prefer to swing your weapon like the gentleman above, then you might want to change your weapon. I'm using a Falchion now. I am also a Royal.

[oramay]

Originally Posted by patsu

If you want, you can tell me all the details and I can ask there. There are a lot more DS experts on GAF compared to B3D.

Thanks a lot. My problem is this:
I know one of the assassination targets is Biorr, but I also know he will help distract the blue dragon in 1-4 and make my life easier there. As I understand it, he either dies in the process or disappear from the current game after that regardless. So, I'm thinking if I can get the best of both worlds. Can I first take the assassination order, then go to kill the blue dragon and see Biorr dies in the process of helping me, and then go back to Nexus to collect reward? If I can't get the reward without killing him myself, can I still get the next assassination job after he's gone, or will I be stuck?

[patsu]

Posted here

It's a tricky question. I wonder if anyone else thought of that.

[oramay]

Originally Posted by patsu

Posted here

It's a tricky question. I wonder if anyone else thought of that.

Thanks, I know what to do now. I'd just do the assassinations first.

[patsu]

Damn it, I got invaded by 2 Black Phantoms tonight.



Just finished off the 2-1 boss, got my body back and continued exploring.

I didn't see the first invasion message. So I thought he was an in-game BP. He appeared with 2 other in-game enemies I had not seen before. Was able to dispatch all of them relatively quickly.



The second BP invasion message appeared almost immediately after I killed the first one. I was worried about the possibility of a third BP, and decided to call it quits.

I fired up the Evacuate spell, but it didn't $^&#^$# work ! May be that spell doesn't work when invaded ? I paid 20K to learn it. Tried 2 more times; still nothing. I was losing precious time.

I hurried back to the Archstone on-foot and not surprisingly, met the new BP in a narrow tunnel head-on. My weapon setup was all wrong because I was trying to cast the Evacuate spell. I also suffered from bleeding from the first encounter. Took a few hits immediately, but fortunately missed a Soul Arrow. I had over 20K on me and had to wave goodbye to them now. [Ph*ck !]


I rolled forward clumsily to pass him and avoided more attacks. Was determined to make a dash to the Archstone. It's about 30 seconds away. Also trying to heal and change my weapon config like all at the same time while fumbling around. My hands were cold, and I felt feverish (!). Didn't even have time to scream or breathe.

He was running behind me, swinging his sword. I bumped into him after barely equipping my Falchion. For the first time, I was able to see his outfit (Fluted armor with long sword ?). No wonder I had a chance to re-equip; fluted armor must be heavy and slow.

While that thought lingered in the air, the fight was over.

He got careless and I got lucky. I rolled into him while his shield was down.
Had enough stamina left to dish out a few rapid slashes. I just upgraded my Crescent Falchion too.



The screen read, "The Black Phantom was Destroyed !"

Screw you, I don't want to stay any longer... going home now.

[patsu made it back to the Nexus to change his pants]

[szymku]

I always use poison daggers on black phantom, throw one and then avoiding their attacks until they die from poisoning... I wonder why they didn't carry antidotes....

[patsu]

Ha ha... now I have to worry about incoming poison daggers too.


It was fun anyway. Was planning for future BP invasions as I drove home. The Evacuate spell (actually, a miracle) was my original plan for handling unwelcomed BP encounters. I wanted to go home early tonight. I think it worked out okay in the end. Earned extra souls to spend. Am a little more confident with BP encounters.


I got another scare in 4-2 yesterday. Was sandwiched between 2 Shadowmen as they revived. Couldn't roll pass the Shadowman behind me. He's too big (or the tunnel was too small). Panicked and suddenly forgot which button was "Attack". My fingers kept mashing the [] button as a reflex. Wasted 20 half-moon leaves but I survived long enough to remember R1. Killed the Shadowman in time, and escaped with a sliver of health.

I tell ya... this game reminds me of an old friend. He always told me, "Don't pray too hard, you might get it". I wanted to try a horror game. This one nearly gave me heart attack.

[Prophecy2k]

Does anyone know of any possibility of this game coming to Europe?

[oramay]

I fired up the Evacuate spell, but it didn't $^&#^$# work ! May be that spell doesn't work when invaded ? I paid 20K to learn it. Tried 2 more times; still nothing.

I think you can't go back to Nexus when an invasion is still going on. You can't go back even if you touch the archstone of your current area. However, Evacuate is well worth the price because it makes souls farming more efficient.

The first time I saw an invasion notice, I tried to run away as well. I was in 4-1 at the time. I knew an invader is ejected when the host runs across different areas separated by archstone. Then, I realized I haven't faced the 4-1 boss yet, and hence have nowhere to run. The guy was upon me when I was still thinking what to equip. Fortunately, I managed to kill the guy but I was anxious and nervous for the whole process and quit game afterward to take a breather.

[Carl B]

I haven't found an amulet yet - if you learn miracles do they dish one out to you, or do you need to track one down in the world? If it's the later, don't spoil it for me as to where!