Welcome, Unregistered.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Reply
Old 25-Nov-2008, 18:47   #101
DrJay24
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Internet
Posts: 2,465
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlStrong View Post
Not quite... the dithering effect in GTA4 was on textures...
It was on the shadows too, they were the worst offenders.
DrJay24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Nov-2008, 18:59   #102
AlNets
Posts may self-destruct
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a Mirror Darkly
Posts: 15,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DrJay24 View Post
It was on the shadows too, they were the worst offenders.
Well, in FC2's case, it looks very different from the dithering seen in GTA4. These shadows actually look interlaced of a sort or as though there is no interpolation occurring resulting in missing lines.
__________________
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Never scale-up, never sub-render!
(╯□)╯︵ □ Flipquad
AlNets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Nov-2008, 20:15   #103
warb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 1,056
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarretASUS View Post
Then there seem to be some inconsistencies found within the 360 version then if during some playthroughs it changes. And with regards to motion blur, my PS3 copy most definitely has the motion blur effect. Now if they are different in intensity between versions, I wouldn't know.
It's been updated again.
Quote:
UPDATE: We have tracked down exactly what causes the graphical glitch in the Xbox 360 version of Tomb Raider Underworld. And guess what? It is also in the PlayStation 3. Check out how to recreate the bug here.
We have taken this Head2Head offline and will be updating the content soon.
warb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Nov-2008, 23:07   #104
Arwin
Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posts: 14,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
Some Far Cry 2 action. PC is running at 4xAA, though the option for 8xAA is available.

Shot1:
PC: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1527/pc1cu7.jpg
360: http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1149/3601es6.jpg
PS3: http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4088/ps31py7.jpg

Shot2:
PC: http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1161/pc2cz4.jpg
360: http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/929/3602xe8.jpg
PS3: http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/292/ps32gp7.jpg

Think I'm gonna have to recapture the PC one as the field of view is clearly wrong. I think I'll add that unofficial patch. A couple of interesting observations - firstly, the shadowing on 360 is almost interlace-like in appearance. Not good at all. The image does look anti-aliased on both platforms though... 2xMSAA on 360 and 2xQAA on PS3? I'm sure the previous footage was zero AA...
Interesting. I think I'm going to agree with your AA suggestions, only in the case of the 360 the AA is applied and then the shadows are drawn, which could make sense if the AA is done in EDRAM and then the shadows in the final pass when the image is out of EDRAM again (you may in fact, laugh at me if this is a stupid idea). In fact, I'm thinking this achieves 4xAA on the 360, but this is masked by the shadows (seem to be not using transparency).

I'm thinking the PS3's shadows are drawn in the exact same way, but then the PS3 version relies on the Quincunx to get rid of the pixellation of the shadows. You can see this in the bits that are only very lightly shadowed, or are single thin shadows, where you can still see how the original pixel pattern on the 360 is the same on PS3 but mostly positively blended into the background by the full-screen Quincunx.

The advantage of this seems to be that when a shadow is added to another shadow, this looks very nice and is an effect you probably couldn't afford to do with transparency (which is apparently expensive on either system). But then they probably either couldn't figure out how to AA the shadows in the 360 version without taking the AA out of the EDRAM, or just didn't have enough time to figure out a different rendering method on the 360 to take the shadows into account.

It is refreshing to see a third party use Quincunx on the PS3, and use it cleverly, although downsides for multiplatform development are also apparent, and you do get a slightly more blurried image in which texture definition suffers somewhat. Definitely both images are 720p though, no upscaling.

Does this make any sense at all? I know everything I know about rendering from these forums, so no claims of authority on my part. Hopefully someone with more authority weighs in.

Makes me want to try the game out though!
Arwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Nov-2008, 23:37   #105
Arnold Beckenbauer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
Some Far Cry 2 action. PC is running at 4xAA, though the option for 8xAA is available.

Shot1:
PC: http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/1527/pc1cu7.jpg
360: http://img444.imageshack.us/img444/1149/3601es6.jpg
PS3: http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/4088/ps31py7.jpg

Shot2:
PC: http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1161/pc2cz4.jpg
360: http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/929/3602xe8.jpg
PS3: http://img149.imageshack.us/img149/292/ps32gp7.jpg

Think I'm gonna have to recapture the PC one as the field of view is clearly wrong. I think I'll add that unofficial patch. A couple of interesting observations - firstly, the shadowing on 360 is almost interlace-like in appearance. Not good at all. The image does look anti-aliased on both platforms though... 2xMSAA on 360 and 2xQAA on PS3? I'm sure the previous footage was zero AA...
It looks like the shadows aren't filtered. The same crap you can see in Battlefield 2 or NFS Most Wanted on every older Radeon (because of lacking PCF support).
BF2:
__________________
Hail Brothers and Sisters! Coranon Silaria, Ozoo Mahoke
Eta Kooram Nah Smech!

Find Chuck Norris.
Arnold Beckenbauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 25-Nov-2008, 23:55   #106
Richard
Mord's imaginary friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: PT, EU
Posts: 3,513
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Beckenbauer View Post
It looks like the shadows aren't filtered. The same crap you can see in Battlefield 2 or NFS Most Wanted on every older Radeon (because of lacking PCF support).
WRT Most Wanted, you mean when the shadows are cast across a vehicle right? Because on the ground they were properly filtered IIRC (Radeon X850).
__________________
The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true. - James Branch Cabell
Richard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 00:14   #107
Arnold Beckenbauer
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,018
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard View Post
WRT Most Wanted, you mean when the shadows are cast across a vehicle right? Because on the ground they were properly filtered IIRC (Radeon X850).
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-vide...ics-nfsmw.html
It looks unfiltered on all Radeons.
__________________
Hail Brothers and Sisters! Coranon Silaria, Ozoo Mahoke
Eta Kooram Nah Smech!

Find Chuck Norris.
Arnold Beckenbauer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 00:52   #108
Richard
Mord's imaginary friend
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: PT, EU
Posts: 3,513
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Beckenbauer View Post
http://www.ixbt.com/video/itogi-vide...ics-nfsmw.html
It looks unfiltered on all Radeons.
Ah okay, nevermind then, I thought you meant the MW shadows looked like the ones from BF2. For reference, I was talking about this, using one of the shots from your link: when the tree shadows are cast across the red car in the centre of the screenshot, the shadow "edges" are sharp whereas in the ground they are soft.
__________________
The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds, and the pessimist fears this is true. - James Branch Cabell
Richard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 09:54   #109
MazingerDUDE
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 307
Default

just dled Super SF2 HD Remix


http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SF2HD1080P.jpg

there seems to be some kind of dithering artifact going on around edge of characters at 1080P


http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SF2HD720P.jpg

seems smoother at 720P, but with of course, a lot less details


could this be a bug?


PS3 version BTW
MazingerDUDE is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 11:31   #110
Dr Evil
Anas platyrhynchos
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 4,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
The shadows are nasty looking, I noticed that when I played the game, I have a 100" screen currently and at that size the shadow artifacts look pretty bad. The X360 version is sharper and draws more on the screen though.
Dr Evil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 12:18   #111
vanquish
Naughty Boy!
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 462
Default

I have a question about Quincunx AA, a lot of PS3 titles use it eg TR:UW, Quantum of Solace, Assassins Creed, Resistance 1 (2?), and even Killzone 2.

Wheras basically no 360 titles do, is this due to architecture differences on the PS3 (eg SPE's) that make it more viable? Or are devs simply more interested in reducing aliasing in their PS3 titles these days, given the traditional lack of AA in PS3 ports.

As I understand the storage cost is the same as 2xMSAA, but the perceived effect is higher (eg =4xMSAA) but it blurs textures.

Last edited by vanquish; 28-Nov-2008 at 00:11.
vanquish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 12:24   #112
grandmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,159
Default

Quincunx is incorporated in hardware in nVidia graphics chips.

Here's Street Fighter HD Remix on 360. There is something a bit odd at 1080p... almost as though the art has been vertically scaled - badly.

Shot1:
720p: http://img392.imageshack.us/img392/3794/720p000dg0.jpg
1080p: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/5567/1080p000bz9.jpg

Shot2:
720p: http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/304/720p001hg0.jpg
1080p: http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/7285/1080p001fj0.jpg

Shot3:
720p: http://img184.imageshack.us/img184/5999/720p002zs0.jpg
1080p: http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/3112/1080p002sj6.jpg

Shot4:
720p: http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/1277/720p003ul8.jpg
1080p: http://img206.imageshack.us/img206/305/1080p003fe4.jpg
grandmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 12:31   #113
Arwin
Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posts: 14,924
Default

Strange. What's the size of the game as download?
Arwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 12:36   #114
user542745831
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,092
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by MazingerDUDE View Post
just dled Super SF2 HD Remix
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SF2HD1080P.jpg
there seems to be some kind of dithering artifact going on around edge of characters at 1080P
http://www3.telus.net/public/dhwag/SF2HD720P.jpg
seems smoother at 720P, but with of course, a lot less details
could this be a bug?
PS3 version BTW
So the game is suffering from that at 1080p on both consoles? PS3 and Xbox 360?

And what about the black bars at the left and right side of the picture of your screenshots grandmaster? Is the game pillarboxed?

If yes, what could be the reason for that? To compensate overscan of some displays?

But why at 1080p, too then? Most 1080p displays should support 1:1 display.

Strange.

Last edited by user542745831; 26-Nov-2008 at 12:44.
user542745831 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 12:59   #115
Arwin
Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posts: 14,924
Default

The 1080p shots from the PS3 seem to be completely different from the 360 version though - the PS3's 1080p is proper 1080p, but the 360 I don't know what's happening there, something really weird.
Arwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 13:11   #116
grandmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,159
Default

The 360 download is around 380-390MB by the way.
grandmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 13:45   #117
lbartley
Junior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 47
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
The 360 download is around 380-390MB by the way.
That's a little interesting, usually the PS3 file sizes are larger...
lbartley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 13:49   #118
Arwin
Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posts: 14,924
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
The 360 download is around 380-390MB by the way.
Well then it probably shouldn't be the source material/art - the PS3 is 303MB apparently.
Arwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 14:30   #119
AlNets
Posts may self-destruct
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a Mirror Darkly
Posts: 15,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
There is something a bit odd at 1080p... almost as though the art has been vertically scaled - badly.
A poorer scaling algorithm, but at the same time, the image isn't blurred... a curious trade-off. Looking at the 720p shots closely, it seems the problems are still there, but are amplified (more noticeable) at 1080p. :s Perhaps a problem with the sprite technology they're using?

The environments appear to be fine (and even sharper than 720p upscaled to 1080p using a lanczos filter), so they're likely drawn at 1:1 pixel ratio.
__________________
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Never scale-up, never sub-render!
(╯□)╯︵ □ Flipquad
AlNets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 14:45   #120
Dr Evil
Anas platyrhynchos
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Finland
Posts: 4,779
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Beckenbauer View Post
It looks like the shadows aren't filtered. The same crap you can see in Battlefield 2 or NFS Most Wanted on every older Radeon (because of lacking PCF support).
BF2:
http://www.abload.de/img/screen0017byf.jpg
That doesn't really look like the X360 version of Far Cry 2 though, which shadows look like they are rasterized.
Dr Evil is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 14:48   #121
grandmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,159
Default

I'm not going to buy the PS3 version just to grab it (can't say I'm really THAT impressed with the 360 one to be honest), but the weirdo scaling method seems to be in MazingerDUDE's shots as well. Where there should be smooth lines, there are odd dimples, just as on 360.

It's as though vertical resolution is being stretched and rather then blur, they're doubling the odd line.

The pillaring is there by default by the way. I'm actually wondering if scaling down vertically will cure the sprites of their problems.

Last edited by grandmaster; 26-Nov-2008 at 15:18.
grandmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 15:07   #122
AlNets
Posts may self-destruct
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a Mirror Darkly
Posts: 15,178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
It's as though vertical resolution is being stretched and rather then blur, they're doubling the odd line.
It may be worth noting that the oddity has a 5-5-6 regularity. (5-pixels from a pixel of the double pixel wide column to the next, 5-pixels to the next occurrence, then 6 pixels to the next, and then it starts again)

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
I'm not going to buy the PS3 version just to grab it
They don't offer a demo?

Quote:
I'm actually wondering if scaling down vertically will cure the sprites of their problems.
It does but... hm...
__________________
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Never scale-up, never sub-render!
(╯□)╯︵ □ Flipquad
AlNets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 15:26   #123
grandmaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,159
Default

That sounds like a 'nearest neighbor' Photoshop resize technique... it means that more than 12% of the character detail has been lost.

There's no playable demo that I can see on the US PSN, and it's not available at all in the EU.

Last edited by grandmaster; 26-Nov-2008 at 16:02. Reason: crap maths
grandmaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 17:06   #124
Rotmm
Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 688
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
There's no playable demo that I can see on the US PSN, and it's not available at all in the EU.
I'd wait until tomorrow, as Thursday is PSN day for demo's, movies and the like.
Rotmm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 26-Nov-2008, 17:14   #125
rekator
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: France
Posts: 672
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by grandmaster View Post
That sounds like a 'nearest neighbor' Photoshop resize technique... it means that more than 12% of the character detail has been lost.

There's no playable demo that I can see on the US PSN, and it's not available at all in the EU.
So the game is not a 1080p native?
If yes, why not using the hardware scaler of the 360? Who give good results.
On PS3 I understood the need to implement a good software scaler, but in this game it's seem to not be good?
And I don't think that SF2 use all the resourcse of the PS3 so you have room for made a really good software scaler, like the DVD upscale of the PS3.
rekator is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 14:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.