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#451 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 556
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Quote:
If its "bollux" then what exactly do you believe the purpose of triple buffering is if its not to increase performance in v locked games? |
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#452 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,567
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Quote:
http://www.lensoftruth.com/wp-conten...n_aa_00112.jpg Last edited by assurdum; 27-Aug-2009 at 13:19. |
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#453 | |
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Iron "BEAST" Man
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NGC2264
Posts: 8,383
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Quote:
Anyway when vsync is enabled there is no excuse to ditch triple buffering unless one wants the system to not be utilised and mostly idle. For example witcher does either 30fps or 60fps depending on situation with vsync however with D3Doverrider and forced triple buffering it is pretty much a solid 58-60fps experience. Same with Crysis. With just vsync and double buffering I get awlays 20 or 30fps but with triple buffering I get anywhere between 25-50fps (DX10 1440x900 4xAA UHQ). Vsync off = "poor mans choice" No triple buffering solution with vsync = Dumb unless system limitations prohibite the use of it
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"If you told me that if I ate a kilo of shit I would put on a pound of muscles, I would do it." -Arnold Schwarzenegger Last edited by Neb; 27-Aug-2009 at 13:28. |
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#454 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,562
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The difference with triple buffering with v-sync vs double buffering without v-sync is that you inject, - on average, half a frame of latency into the user-input - update - display chain.
For 60Hz DVI/HDMI connected displays this amounts to 8ms which is noticable enough in twitch first person shooters. Cheers
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#455 | |
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penguins
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,978
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Quote:
You have to see it in motion... a screenshot isn't going to show you the temporal artifacting there... It's not just a case of low res shadowing. Even the self-shadows on Batman exhibit SSAO artifacts.
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#456 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,567
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#457 | |
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penguins
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,978
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Quote:
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#458 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 201
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Hmm, the SSAO isn't noticeable at all in that 360 pic. It must not be enabled on all surfaces/character models at once. Or the implementation is too subtle in this case.
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#459 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 307
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Seems like there're a lot of misconceptions going on here regarding triple buffering.
Here're some facts 1. triple buffering does not affect frame rate performance. 2. double buffering with v-sync does however, because GPU stalls once back buffer is complete (no more buffers to fill in) until next update that's synced to the 60hz refresh rate. 3. turning v-sync off does not improve your frame rate performance, what it basically does is recovering what's lost by the v-sync GPU stall mentioned above. 4. triple buffering does not add more input latency over double buffering with v-sync which is the case with the most games out there. http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3591&p=2 I recommend this article for more info |
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#460 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,562
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Cheers
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I'm pink, therefore I'm spam |
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#461 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,090
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Quote:
see the top of this page like I said, IIRC the anandtech had some points that were bollux Quote:
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#462 | |
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Iron "BEAST" Man
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NGC2264
Posts: 8,383
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Quote:
About the framerate it is visible with use of FRAPs or debug info overlay. And despite whatever lag might be introduced due to triple buffering it still is more responsive to have 40-50fps than 30fps. Or 28fps than 20fps etc. For me it is plain obvious when triple buffering is not enabled as you really notice the framerate dips. 60 to 30fps for a second(s) is blatantly obvious as is 30 to 20fps. Like in Witcher going from 60fps directly to 30fps is like a 'rollercaster abruptly braking in throwing you slightly of balance'. While with triple buffering it is a steady 58-60fps, go figure which one is more pleasant and responsive to the player. Of course one could just disable vsync and be happy ignoring the plague of tearing frames (IMO worse than lack of AF). However some games just loose their smoothness by having vsync off. The games feel stuttery and not fluid despite high framerates. A good example is BF2 as back in the old times I had around 60fps and without vsync as visual output was twitchy and not coherent (Singleplayer) ofcourse due to the tearing, skipping frames/frame parts the transition between frames was not good enough to give a smooth 'even motion sequence'. Enabling vsync and triple buffering gave a butter smooth experience. Heavens bless triple buffering and vsync.
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"If you told me that if I ate a kilo of shit I would put on a pound of muscles, I would do it." -Arnold Schwarzenegger Last edited by Neb; 28-Aug-2009 at 10:40. |
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#463 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 556
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You're talking about as much as a 50% inprovement in average framerate in the best case scenario but more than that the actual perceptual improvement can not be understated as it becomes much harder to spot dropped frames. Tearing is just never a solution as far as I'm concerned, totally ruins the image consistancy and in the worst circumstances will make a game unplayable. Would I be happy to slightly lower the resolution of a few dozen textures to 100% get rid of that artefact in a console game? Hell yes I would, heck considering the complete lack of anisotropic filtering in most console games, I'd never notice the difference anyway. Last edited by brain_stew; 28-Aug-2009 at 14:12. |
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#464 |
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Member
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Austria
Posts: 699
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With correctly implemented triple buffering (always using the most recently completed frame at vblank) the only case where you get more latency than without vsync is when you would get tearing -- and the additional visual processing of that artifact distracts more than a few ms additional wait time.
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#465 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 523
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pseudo double buffer v-sync, does v-sync if the framerate is above 30, if less, then it falls back to double buffer without v-sync. |
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#466 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 682
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new here
about batman AA ps3/360 lends of truth comparison, has anyone noticed the differences in textures or drawing distance on the ground that both versions have. http://i30.tinypic.com/egtkx2.jpg http://i27.tinypic.com/a5ktw9.jpg to me the 360 version seems to have either better highlights or better mipmaping......or something different. I've been noticing that. does anyone have both versions to make a clearer comparison on that?
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Carl Sagan- The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. |
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#467 | |
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penguins
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,978
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Quote:
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#468 | |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 682
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http://www.lensoftruth.com/wp-conten...n_aa_00112.jpg and even on the second rollover pic you can see 360 version having that same glimmer effect, it's shrunken down though. for the second pic, i too think the texture is different, but it could all be do to the sloppiness of the texture that's showing such distortion. it seems to be the same ground texture, just a distortion on ps3's version. more 1080p uncompressed shots of both versions would help. hmmmmm, in IGN's review for batman AA they said quote "the graphics tend to be sharper on the Xbox 360 when compared to the PS3, which packs a 1.2 GB install that lasts for three minutes."1.2 GB install that lasts for three minutes. Still, it's not enough to matter in terms of how great this game truly is so don't expect a score difference in terms of reviews. Of course, the PS3 also has the exclusive ability to take on challenges as the Joker, but I'm not including that in this review because the Joker stuff isn't on the game disc -- it's free DLC you get from the PlayStation Store." http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/101/1016701p3.html now, they would only say something like that if they had already did a comparison, so it seems that they did. what i liked about what IGN's written review is that they had a sense of compassion and respect for both versions and left out what they had over each other. (whereas with lends of truth they did a finer comparison which is what do but left out more specific detail of what the 360 version had and depicted in their shots, and left out that ps3's version comes with a mandatory installation.) i think if you're going to make the two steps to make nitpick comparison you should take the extra step to bring forth all the nitpicking details......after all their quote states "just telling the truth"
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Carl Sagan- The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. |
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#469 | |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 2,090
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in the first screenshot, xbox looks like its high res (but Im no expert like quaz)
2nd one imposible to say, the camera is further back thus a lower mipmap level is used on the ground which will always leads to blurring btw Nebula/brain_stew about D3DOverrider Ild never heard of this application before though my point still stands Quote:
eg >>1. triple buffering does not affect frame rate performance. plainly false as the whole reason for it is to lock the frame rate to vsync refresh, #2 is corect but 3+4 are both false
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#470 |
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Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 100
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Let sum up something obvious. V-sync=for weak system.
V-sync only add control delay no matter how much you like V-sync, though a system that can always deliver above the target framerate doesn't need V-sync because it is more powerful. Which mean there's no screen tearing or no obvious screen tearing with more direct control because the more ppwerful system rarely or doesn't fall under 30 or 60fps. You have 2 choice Samsung+V-synced game(200ms of input delay) or a Panasonic+no V-synced(30ms of input delay) game. Well the difference is that the guy with the Panny will probably enjoy more his game than the guy with the Samsung. |
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#471 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 682
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about batman AA, IGN stated "the graphics tend to be sharper on the Xbox 360 when compared to the PS3, which packs a 1.2 GB install that lasts for three minutes."
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/101/1016701p3.html I'm guessing they too already did a comparison, and judging by the out come they already came to terms. funny how lends of truth never mentioned anything about a mandatory installation for the ps3 version, isn't that something that the 360 version doesn't have a comparison of the two batman console versions just turned up at gametrailers. http://www.gametrailers.com/video/co...n-arkham/55191 the first 40 seconds is bs cause those movie scenes are all pre-rendered. ( they should sit closer to their TVs of their comparison i noticed a few things, at around 1:13 on a closes up of a person apparently there appears to be some lack of self shadowing on ps3's part. (under nose and eyes) http://i29.tinypic.com/2zqzj2o.jpg it's better seeing it in motion. at 1:46 you see some differences in ground detail on both versions. http://i28.tinypic.com/e1b402.jpg even in this blurry pic i print screened you see some differences in 360's version. (in ground highlights ) and at around 2:13 you see what looks like a very good reason why not to make a comparison video. an uncompressed 720p (or 1080p upscaled) comparison would be very much appreciated
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Carl Sagan- The beauty of a living thing is not the atoms that go into it, but the way those atoms are put together. |
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#472 | |
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Regular
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 8,979
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Quote:
Vsync on and triple buffering is fine for casual play but the small bit of lag is just too infuriating for twitch play for some of us. I keep revisiting the issue with each new video card I get, but the situation remains the same for the most part. Vsync off for twitch games. Vsync on and triple buffering on for slower paced more casual games (like RTS, RPG, adventure games, etc.) Sorry for the off topic but it's a pet peeve when people try to blow off others that prefer Vsync off for twitch games. Regards, SB |
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#473 | ||
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penguins
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,978
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Quote:
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#474 | |
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Grumpy Mod
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In a pretty pink padded cell
Posts: 26,045
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Quote:
(I'll remove this OT post once read)
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Shifty Geezer ... Tolerance for internet moronism is exhausted. Anyone talking about people's attitudes in the Console fora, rather than games and technology, will feel my wrath. Read the FAQ to remind yourself how to behave and avoid unsightly incidents. |
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#475 | ||
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Iron "BEAST" Man
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: NGC2264
Posts: 8,383
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Quote:
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You either get ~8ms lag or unfinished frames making it harder to see whats going on due to interupted fluidity in visual output. Also screen tearing is still present at above 30fps or 60fps or inbetween. So you still need vsync. Turning of vsync in any PC game that runs beyond 30fps should be proof enough (locked framerate 30fps still tearing, locked 60fps still tearing). CoJ Blood Bound should be another title to use as it is above 30fps and tears noticably on 360 as observed in this thread. EDIT: I assume control response is also something to factor in. Wireless versus directly connected etc. Myself use a wired 500Hz(present setting)/1000Hz poll rate, 2000DPI mouse.
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"If you told me that if I ate a kilo of shit I would put on a pound of muscles, I would do it." -Arnold Schwarzenegger Last edited by Neb; 29-Aug-2009 at 14:42. |
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