[D3v0ur3r]

I've read many posts (none that I can think of here) around the web about how a heck of a lot of console players hate, despise, & loath the very thought of people using a mouse & keyboard to play FPS games on the console as well as a very great many even go as far as to say its cheating. Now on the other hand its perfectly acceptable to use a Steering Wheel in racing games against those that can only use a controller. To me this is complete nonsense. As far as I know FPS games were more designed for a KB/M & while I would think most racing games were originally designed for a controller. They normally work a lot better (at least for me) with a actual steering wheel. So if you can play a racing game better with a steering wheel & not be ridiculed by the controller purists then why not a KB/M for FPS games? Or do most controller purists rain down upon the steering wheel players as well & I've just never noticed it?

Surely I can't be the only one to have made this comparison before? Your thoughts on the subject will surely be interesting. But lets not flame please.

Edit: Btw, there are also a heck of a lot of console players I've read posts from that think they are every bit as good on the controller as anyone with a KB/M. So again why the hyper excited hate for those who would rather use it when playing a FPS game?

[Phil]

In a racing game, the differences between a controller and a steering wheel is far smaller (less noticable) and less of an issue than in a FPS between keyboard/mouse and a controller.

It's all about making an even playing field possible.

[Carl B]

The reason why is that a wheel gives a tactile advantage, but not a performance/response advantage; a very large difference that renders a gamepad gamer unable to compete against a keyboard&mouse gamer of identical skill in a game which supports both without handicapping.

[Mize]

So, basically, there's no hope in my controller skills ever catching up to KB/M?

[Carl B]

Originally Posted by Mize

So, basically, there's no hope in my controller skills ever catching up to KB/M?

Your skills yes, but your skills alone cannot overcome the tracking differential between a mouse and an analog stick.

[D3v0ur3r]

I honestly think the Wheel replies thus far is a complete matter of opinion. Every time I've raced a Wheel player with a controller I've lost. You generally can not make turns nearly as well with a controller as you could with a wheel. That alone imo is a rather large advantage.

[rbushner]

I think you are correct a wheel to the controller in a driving game is almost exactly like a KB/M to a controller in a FPS. A wheel is an advantage, not only in giving feedback, but it also gives much finer control than a controller.

I'm not good at FPSs, but I've seen plenty of people playing FPS with KB/M that I would easily beat with a controller. As long as multiplayer games match people according to their skill, I don't care what people use. If being cramped up at a desk is how you want to play, so be it. But I much prefer the feet up relaxed on the couch playstyle.

[archie4oz]

I don't think it can be stated one way or the other. All things being equal then yes you do get an advantage with mouse and keyboard vs. gamepad (same with wheel vs. gamepad). However it can vary from game to game. As far as shooters go, game pads don't always necessarily have the same sized hit box for a target as mouse and keyboard users do (on the same game). The gamepad may or may not also have subtle aim assists that mouse and keyboard users have. Plus while with a mouse you get more acceleration around an axis, the game could also constrain it to n number of degrees per millisecond to match the slew rate of the game pad.

In racing titles, gamepads have to have a lot of input buffering and dampening to make a car controllable (thanks in no small part to people's habit of "digital steering"). So in some ways game pad users get quite a bit of assist that one could to some degree be called "cheating." Chances are if a title supports both input methods then chances are using one or the other really isn't cheating because they should both be relatively well balanced (much the chagrin of the person using the wheel or mouse+keyboard).

[novcze]

Originally Posted by D3v0ur3r

I honestly think the Wheel replies thus far is a complete matter of opinion. Every time I've raced a Wheel player with a controller I've lost. You generally can not make turns nearly as well with a controller as you could with a wheel. That alone imo is a rather large advantage.

Steering Wheel is not such advantage . . . only real racing games fans own steering wheel and they are fast, y`know

[D3v0ur3r]

I am not a "real racing games fans" & I own a Momo for the PC. One could more then likely tell with my recent posts that I am a FPS fan. But I realize that I can play a racing game a lot better as well as enjoy the game & be emersed in the game a lot better with a good force feedback wheel. But I am one of those fellows that likes having better tools to play the game better. That's just me. So I have to very much disagree with you novcze as racing hasn't ever been my thing near as much as a FPS game is. I also intend on getting a decent wheel for the PS3 & I am still not a "real racing games fans". I just enjoy playing games well with better equipment to do it.

[Mintmaster]

Originally Posted by D3v0ur3r

I honestly think the Wheel replies thus far is a complete matter of opinion. Every time I've raced a Wheel player with a controller I've lost. You generally can not make turns nearly as well with a controller as you could with a wheel. That alone imo is a rather large advantage.

That's because people with a wheel play driving games a lot more.

On the PC, I found a wheel has a lot better control than a keyboard/gamepad, but that's because the former is analog and the latter is digital. Take any analog control, like a joystick, and there's no reason that a wheel would be any better other than the learning curve. One thing that was annoying on the PS2, however, is large deadzone in the analog sticks, and I don't know if that's improved on the PS3. Fine adjustments were hard with Gran Turismo because small movements in the thumbstick did nothing. I'll concede that a wheel has an advantage there.

However, someone good enough with the controller will be able to match the input signals of someone on a wheel. That is not even remotely true for a KB/mouse vs. controller.

[Arwin]

Originally Posted by Mintmaster

That's because people with a wheel play driving games a lot more.

On the PC, I found a wheel has a lot better control than a keyboard/gamepad, but that's because the former is analog and the latter is digital. Take any analog control, like a joystick, and there's no reason that a wheel would be any better other than the learning curve. One thing that was annoying on the PS2, however, is large deadzone in the analog sticks, and I don't know if that's improved on the PS3. Fine adjustments were hard with Gran Turismo because small movements in the thumbstick did nothing. I'll concede that a wheel has an advantage there.

You would have been right if it weren't for the d-pad, which has remained the preferred method of control for many controller players. The d-pad has considerable steering aid to make sure that you can't steer too much, something which is not present when using the analog stick. (I've extensively compared front wheel movement with all three methods of control) Having been part of and/or witness to some of the very toughest competitions (online time trials and sizeable LAN parties, where I've met several of the top European players in person), I can tell you that you can be competitive at the very highest level with all forms of control, and this is represented also in the online time trial databases (which require replay verification and everything, serious stuff). In the GT5 Prologue Demo by the way there is currently no deadzone whatsoever for either the wheel or analog stick, and that took me some getting used to. I'm sure in the final game it'll be configurable (as it is in for instance Forza 2).

In the main, and especially in LAN parties, there are clear advantages and disadvantages to both the d-pad and the wheel (being able to make more precise motions while in a turn vs being able to make more sudden motions without losing control, and being able to make faster transitions from turning left to turning right). But the main reason (also) many of the top players move to wheel control, is that you discover it's just so much more immersive and fun.

However, someone good enough with the controller will be able to match the input signals of someone on a wheel.

Again, vice versa isn't even necessarily true - you can't make as sudden transitions from left to right with a wheel as you can with a controller, d-pad or analog stick both.

That is not even remotely true for a KB/mouse vs. controller.

It's a hugely complex matter. The controller does have two analog sticks you can use, and depending on what a game does with that, there is a little bit more control possible for the combinatino of movement and aiming. So far for many games the importance of speed and precision in aiming seems to clearly outweigh that advantage in coordinated movement. But I must say, in a game like Bioshock the 360's analog stick give excellent combined control.

Games should support both even if it were just to settle the damn argument, and/or to find ways to improve the experience on both. Right now, Unreal looks like it will make that happen and while it would be much better if all games do it, and it's just one type of fps, its at least a start. Hopefully it's a successful experiment and others will follow.

After all, there are already special controllers out there that will make the point moot otherwise anyway.

[D3v0ur3r]

Nice reply Arwin. I did notice the D-pad was a lot better for Dirt then the Thumb stick just this past Sunday. Since I just got my PS3 late Friday night I spent a lot of Saturday messing about with PS3/TV settings, & trying to optimize the wireless connection as much as possible with the router.

Does anyone know if steering with the D-pad on the 360 is as nice as it is on the PS3?

Btw. I had to RMA my FragFX. Dang shame its thumb stick didn't work. I thought the mouse movement was about as well as you could expect without true mouse support. I went from tard to instant master on RFoM with just aiming as that's all I could do. Was great. Don't know if I'll try & order another in fear I may have to RMA it as well.

Edit: Looks like there is a brand new XFPS as well. http://www.xcm.cc/XFPS_3.0_Sniper.htm

[Acert93]

Replace "Wheel" with "Arcade Stick", "Flight Stick", ad nauseum. The issue isn't about a "level playing field" as the host of advantage giving perephrials indicates. FASA and Epic have both gone on record that their games are fairly balanced with gamepad/KB&MS. Which isn't a surprise considering how developers have done a lot to improve gamepad support in FPS with adhesion, time base acceleration, auto-aim, non-linear X/Y movement, and so forth that address the issues gamepads have. Putting it all together your good console FPS players are very good. If you really wanted a level playing field FPS would all be in SDTV with no 5.1 sound and no headsets allowed with an artificial bloated pings to keep everyone in the same range (e.g. over 100ms).

In the past people complained about KB/MS no being comfortable in the living room and the stigma of PC gaming. Now you have lap boards like the FragFX and Phantom setup and the invasion of HTPCs. Then it was competitive balance, but with simple "exclude" filters online and the improvements made in gamepad input game design this isn't as much of an issue either. The real issues are you have millions of hardcore gamers who have played FPS for years who are quite good. As a business model you don't want them flooding in and killing the casuals. And if you're MS you don't want them jumping ship at all.

But the entire competitive advantage concept falls on its face when you consider all the upgraded experiences console makers offer, both in input devices as well as in experience. Someone with a headset, large HDTV, 5.1 sound, low latency connection, with an arcade stick (or wheel, or flight stick, etc) absolutely has an advantage.

But I don't see any kevetching about HD displays, surround sound, network advantage, headset unbalancing teamplay, etc.

The squeaky wheel gets the oil, especially if it makes money. And the console gamers have made it very clear they are ALL about personalization and customization (and you're SOL if you don't have a headset, stop being so cheap and go buy one!)... as long as it keeps those damn hardcore PC FPS gamers off their platform.

But its ok to get owned by an arcade sitck

[D3v0ur3r]

Nice points although I am not sure I get your over all point. Epic said they will offer the option to make servers either controller only, KB/M only, or a mix. That right there is the answer to this whole argument imo. With the cost we pay to play with these things you should have the option to use whatever you prefer. Hopefully Epic will be blazing the path for the future. So far its my opinion that the controller purists are just hypocrites based on a lot of the points Joshua Luna just pointed out as well as the Wheel vs controller being acceptable BS.

[fallguy]

Saying a kb/m is cheating is ignorant. Its simply a better way to control, and anyone should have the option. Its time console makers and devs get on the ball with this.

Saying its cheating, is like saying that someone with a 60" HDTV is cheating, when playing vs someone who has only a 19" TV.

[AlphaWolf]

Originally Posted by fallguy

Saying its cheating, is like saying that someone with a 60" HDTV is cheating, when playing vs someone who has only a 19" TV.

Apples and potatoes. The size of the display has no appreciable effect on the game experience, if you could only see a % of what the person could on the larger display you might have a point.

Its fine to allow multiple input devices if the developer wants to take the time to balance them properly.

[Acert93]

[quote=AlphaWolf;1084511]Apples and potatoes. The size of the display has no appreciable effect on the game experience, if you could only see a % of what the person could on the larger display you might have a point. [/QUOTE

So you are saying gaming in 640x480 is equivalent to gaming at 1080p

And yes, in many games, people with larger widescreen displays do see more. And resolution has an advantage of finer detail (especially useful for picking out objects in the distance). 5.1 sound is superior to stereo because it gives you a better orientation. Headsets allow you to communicate with your teammates for more cooperation and strategy. Low latency gives you faster reaction time and a better presentation of where objects really are. And so forth. The impact every element has varies game to game and gamer to gamer, but it is unrealistic to say that online gaming is a level playing field. And the console manufacturers with their host of options and perephrials have created this environment. If they wanted it completely level they would cater to only the lowest common denominator.

[djskribbles]

another difference between gamepad and wheel is its much harder to feather the gas (at least if you use the traditional control setup where a regular button is the gas). in GT, accelerating out of the apex with a gamepad is a little more difficult as you're pretty much stomping on the gas causing you to spinout (with higher powered/rwd cars anyway)... you have to keep tapping the button so you don't give it too much gas. with wheel/pedal, you can easily give it the right amount of gas necessary.

but yeah, i agree the difference between kb/m and gamepad is more than wheel and gamepad.

[AlphaWolf]

Originally Posted by Joshua Luna

So you are saying gaming in 640x480 is equivalent to gaming at 1080p

Why would it? I used to turn down settings and resolution all the time for online play, because it actually improved my play.

And yes, in many games, people with larger widescreen displays do see more. And resolution has an advantage of finer detail (especially useful for picking out objects in the distance).

Size of the display should affect your viewing distance, if you're sitting 15' away from a 19" screen its because you're an idiot, they can't help you there. Changing perspective (WS/SD) most certainly can have an affect on play, but I never said otherwise. You're really reaching with the detail (while it might change what you look for, it shouldn't really have an appreciable affect on play once you learn it).

5.1 sound is superior to stereo because it gives you a better orientation. Headsets allow you to communicate with your teammates for more cooperation and strategy. Low latency gives you faster reaction time and a better presentation of where objects really are. And so forth. The impact every element has varies game to game and gamer to gamer, but it is unrealistic to say that online gaming is a level playing field. And the console manufacturers with their host of options and perephrials have created this environment. If they wanted it completely level they would cater to only the lowest common denominator.

No its not always a level playing field, that doesn't mean they shouldn't make an effort to keep as balanced as possible. There is no doubt that input device is the biggest balance issue (especially when you start talking macros).

[Mintmaster]

Originally Posted by Arwin

You would have been right if it weren't for the d-pad, which has remained the preferred method of control for many controller players. The d-pad has considerable steering aid to make sure that you can't steer too much, something which is not present when using the analog stick.

Interesting. I knew the d-pad has limits on the rate of steering movement, but I didn't know about steering aid limiting how far you can steer.

In the GT5 Prologue Demo by the way there is currently no deadzone whatsoever for either the wheel or analog stick, and that took me some getting used to. I'm sure in the final game it'll be configurable (as it is in for instance Forza 2).

Good to know. I hate the deadzone in GT3, and as a consequence I almost used the stick like I would use the d-pad (sort of like PWM).

Again, vice versa isn't even necessarily true - you can't make as sudden transitions from left to right with a wheel as you can with a controller, d-pad or analog stick both.

Maybe you could argue that the analogue stick can switch faster than the wheel, but the wheel can still be faster than what's necessary to achieve the perfect lap. Grab the centre of the wheel and twist your wrist if you have to.

I disagree about the d-pad, though. Racing games put a rate limiter on how fast the simulation's internal wheel moves when controlled by a digital input for obvious reasons. Most games map to an analogue control in a 1:1 manner.

It's a hugely complex matter. The controller does have two analog sticks you can use, and depending on what a game does with that, there is a little bit more control possible for the combinatino of movement and aiming. So far for many games the importance of speed and precision in aiming seems to clearly outweigh that advantage in coordinated movement. But I must say, in a game like Bioshock the 360's analog stick give excellent combined control.

Maybe there are situations in some games where two analogue XY inputs are essential, but my point is that a controller could never match the inputs to a game that a mouse can generate.

[-tkf-]

With the current consoles i still don´t understand why the developers doesnt let the online servers decide if they accept kb+mouse.

I can´t play any of the current FPS games on consoles without getting extremely frustrated. Resistance,Killzone 2, Halo 3 are wasted on me.

[rekator]

Wheels it's for a better immersion and a more realist feeling like in reality… and it's more easy this gamepad due to assist like Archie4oz explain.
Are a Kb+M the real way to make a gunfight… no… Wiimote was more closer to reality than a Kb+M.
Kb+M is far aways from real, the opposit of the wheel, for me Kb+M is more easy and kill the immersion in game, but I understood that for competition it's the better choice
So it's normal to not authorized Kb+M vs Gamepad… Kb+M got a very huge advantage

[Phil]

Originally Posted by fallguy

Saying a kb/m is cheating is ignorant. Its simply a better way to control, and anyone should have the option. Its time console makers and devs get on the ball with this.

The problem is the market. There are simply not enough console gamers willing to play FPS games with a keyboard/mouse, since in the majority of cases (and traditionally), a console is hooked up to a TV that for the most part sits somewhere in the livingroom with the couch and all. Having keyboard/mouse users participate in online matches together with the majority of those who use a controller would be highly frustrating for most users.

If you are to implement keyboard/mouse for online play - they should be split into seperate rooms to that everyone more or less has a equal playing field. Splitting the user base though is not something game devs would like to do though (less players online).

[Arwin]

[QUOTE=Mintmaster;1084540]Interesting. I knew the d-pad has limits on the rate of steering movement, but I didn't know about steering aid limiting how far you can steer.

Good to know. I hate the deadzone in GT3, and as a consequence I almost used the stick like I would use the d-pad (sort of like PWM).

Maybe you could argue that the analogue stick can switch faster than the wheel, but the wheel can still be faster than what's necessary to achieve the perfect lap. Grab the centre of the wheel and twist your wrist if you have to.

Typically, yes, but there are definitely exceptions, in Rally or Rally-like driving for instance. And don't forget that force-feedback (and in some cars at especially at lower speeds and when using the Driving Force Pro, 900 degrees of steering) makes it even harder to pull off a quick left right wheel movement. But yes, overall, the two even out, and you can achieve a near perfect lap with both, as is witnessed at the highest level of competition. But, you do sometimes see trends that in certain race styles d-pad wins more, and in other wheels.

Back when I got the df pro first, I used 900 degree mode on GT3, which doesn't actually support it. Thus there was no mapping to how much you need to turn the wheel at different speeds, causing you to have to turn a rather lot for everything. Definitely a downside in most cases, but then I found a track (Apricot Hill) and a slow car (old mini cooper) where I could actually pull off a great lap. And with such low powered cars, it's all about keeping the tire friction to the absolute minimum possible, so getting the smoothest line possible is essential. After 20 laps of getting used to it and perfecting it, I literally obliterated the then best time (though mind you competition on that combination wasn't tough, but it had been driven by one of the best guys back then and I beat that by several seconds), and got called out for that online subsequently several times. Fortunately I had saved the replay. (racing games that don't allow you to save a proper replay suck!)

I disagree about the d-pad, though. Racing games put a rate limiter on how fast the simulation's internal wheel moves when controlled by a digital input for obvious reasons. Most games map to an analogue control in a 1:1 manner.

I don't think many people are even aware of this (almost forgot it myself), but actually when studying this I discovered that the d-pad on the PS2's controller, like many of the other buttons, can be read both analog and digital, and it is in fact read analog in GT4 if I remember correctly. But obviously in this game it's not mapped 1:1 and there's some definite assists there. But this is the case in more games than you might think.

Maybe there are situations in some games where two analogue XY inputs are essential, but my point is that a controller could never match the inputs to a game that a mouse can generate.

Nope, not in terms of precision and speed. But with all the assists, and depending on the game, who knows? I'd like to find out for sure somehow. Maybe it's easier to get a great console gamer to configure a controller on a PC and set up a match, or may set up certain kinds of tests. What we've not discussed for instance, is how many d-pad GT players haven't been able to make the transition to the wheel at all. They never got as fast as they were with the d-pad, and didn't have the patience to invest enough time to overcome their huge investment of learning to pay the game with the d-pad over several years. Even if we have different default capabilities between keyboard/mouse and controller, we're absolutely seeing something similar when it comes to that kind of transition.

And I certainly personally prefer the controller these days (I go way back on PC with fps games). Just more comfortable and certainly when everyone uses it these things don't matter.

All in all I really agree with most people ... Just support the keyboard and mouse, all these consoles can do this easily enough, and it would open up the console market both to more gamers, and to more genres. But nobody (except now Epic) seems to want to make this investment. But if Epic is successful, then this may change. I might buy their game just for that reason alone, even though I'm not otherwise interested in the game.