[RussSchultz]

Anybody want to place bets on when the new Palestinian PM will be assasinated by a radical group opposed to peace?

Kind of morbid, but I expect him to be "Rabin"ized if it becomes apparent that a peace settlement is imminent.

[Stvn]

I'll take a peice of that action. I could use to make an easy buck.

No doubt Sharon too is wearing a kevlar vest these days too with all the "peace in da mid-east" stuff he has been rappin' lately.

One does have to wonder though if a clensing of the old guard isnt in order for the whole region (Arab and Jew).

*sigh*

In the words of Rodney King:

"Whay can't we awl just get along?"

-stvn

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by RussSchultz

Anybody want to place bets on when the new Palestinian PM will be assasinated by a radical group opposed to peace?

Kind of morbid, but I expect him to be "Rabin"ized if it becomes apparent that a peace settlement is imminent.

I wouldn't be surprised. The level of hatred built up between the palestinians and the israelis is simply amazing. I just hope we're smart about using our forces in Iraq to force them to sit down at the table, and make the terrorist groups/warmongerers on both sides chill out.

It might be the only hope left for that region in the near future.

[K.I.L.E.R]

Originally Posted by Natoma

I wouldn't be surprised. The level of hatred built up between the palestinians and the israelis is simply amazing. I just hope we're smart about using our forces in Iraq to force them to sit down at the table, and make the terrorist groups/warmongerers on both sides chill out.

It might be the only hope left for that region in the near future.

Everyones dream. Even though it's just that... A DREAM!

[MrsSkywalker]

http://www.msnbc.com/news/801833.asp?vts=042920031740

I'd give it 17 days, 13 hours and 42 minutes...or, um, thereabouts.

[Silent_One]

I wouldn't be surprised. The level of hatred built up between the palestinians and the israelis is simply amazing. I just hope we're smart about using our forces in Iraq to force them to sit down at the table, and make the terrorist groups/warmongerers on both sides chill out.

It might be the only hope left for that region in the near future.

Natoma-
Please clarify. Who do you mean by them? Both sides? How does being smart on how we use our forces in Iraq make a "radical group opposed to peace" chill out?

[DemoCoder]

Another suicide bomb goes off in Israeli restaurant/disco/etc on the day the PM is sworn in. Coincidence, or deliberate as in Hamas's previous acts of conducting bombing campaigns on the eve of diplomatic initiatives?

[pax]

If its impossible for the Israelis to stop the terrorism after all these years I dont see how this new pm and cabinet will do any better. Considering the means at the disposal of the Israeli army. The only way to abate the terrorist acts is for Israel to withdraw their settlements. Any more excuses and foot dragging by the Israeli gov will only give the terrorists more ammo in their recruitment drives.

Israel could recapture the moral high ground overnight by removing the 300 000 or so in the settlements in the west bank and gaza and relocating them in Israel proper (along with the proposed deal that no palestinians can return to Israel proper as a trade-off). It has the power to implement pretty much any peace deal save for completely preventing terrorism. Once the settlements are out I dont have any qualms about Israel telling the palestinians that any economic coexistence between them and the palestinian state will be determined by the ending of terrorist attacks. I can understand the palestinian territories being sealed off from Israel if they dont. Although it will be as essential for palestinians to have a healthy economy to deter terrorism it doesnt have to be Israels responsibility when so many wealthy arab nations are there to help the new palestinian state.

[DemoCoder]

That only works Pax if Hamas, et al, only want the West Bank/Gaza Strip, and that other governments in the middle east desire peace with Israel and that all parties are willing to accept the reality of the Israeli state.

What about the right of return? Do you really think that Israel, whose entire existence is to provide a secure homeland for Jewish self-rule (and a Jewish theocracy at that), want to flood their country with millions of Palestinians?

I think the idea that Palestinian statehood and withdrawl from the occupied terratories is enough to ensure peace in the middle east is a little too optimistic. What about Syrian occupation of Lebanon? What about Iranian aspirations? The problems of the Palestinians are as much Israel's fault as they are the other Arab league members, and don't forget what they did after the fall of the Ottomans.

Israel and the Palestians themselves might want peace, but they are not the only actors playing in the region and not all of them see a resolution of the Palestinian issue as in their interest.

[Nagorak]

The real question is whether his assassin will be Israeli or Palestinian. Too bad there's no way to separate all the violent extremists on both sides and lock them in an arena to fight it out.

Of course, if people weren't so retarded they would realize that they just have to IGNORE the suicide attacks. Whenever they respond to them or set back peace negotiations because of them, it just gives the terrorists what they want. Frankly, getting the US to attack Iraq and polarizing the Middle East situation was exactly what Bin Laden wanted. (Before someone starts coughing up some patriotic bullshit they heard on the radio, realize I'm talking about his general desire, not that he specifically knew and wanted the US to attack Iraq in particular).

The Israeli government Wednesday condemned an early morning suicide bombing in Tel Aviv that killed three civilians, saying the violent act proved the new Palestinian government under Prime Minister Abu Mazen "is an utter failure."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/...nce/index.html

Gotta love the ridiculousness of the people on both sides of this conflict. He's been in power all of what...not even a day? WTF? How in the hell could he accomplish any major reforms (or even minor ones) in that period of time? He's probably still working on stocking his desk!

Once again, this serves as a great excuse for the extremists on both sides to bolster their positions. Looks like the terrorists win again. Yay!

[pax]

Well Im not saying all will be fine in the medium term, No doubt the pent up fanaticism wont go away overnight. But withdrawal is an easy and necessary step towards the goal of peace or at least more peace in the area. I dont think the other players in the area will have as many willing Palestinian volonteers for their terror groups if a modest palestinian state with a healthy economy are allowed to come about.

I dont agree with the right of return of palestinians in Israel proper. Its not the question of time or any legal justification since they were ethnically cleansed from Israel. Its the issue that Israel proper is very small. Once the settlements have been handed over to the Palestinian state I think it will be a decent trade off to an official no right of return deal of some sort.

Its really overdue to try and defuse a lot of the reasons used for so long for the terrorist recruiter... Like the recent announcement that US will pull out of Saudi Arabia... many have been clamoring for that for a while now. Whether we like it or not we have to respect the fact that many muslims consider the whole state of Saudi Aarabia holy land... But when these things languish the irritation can become serious.

Even in the rosiest of scenarios Israel should expect some terrorist activity still. To expect total stoppage of all terrorism from the current impoverished palestinian autority is unrealistic and cant be used to stop the handover. It will only guarantee a worsening of the problem over time if they stick to this.

[Mariner]

As I understand it, a great deal of the Israel/Palestine problem is with some of the various orthodox Jewish sects. They see passages in the Torah as God promising His 'Chosen People' possession of much of the land in the middle east. Therefore, if they cede land to the Palestinians they are directly disobeying the words of God and committing sacrilege.

The Jew who assassinated Rabin believed this - the assassination was committed on religious grounds, not political.

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

The same can the said for Israel. The moment a leader is elected who wants to settle with peace, he will be assasinated, most likely by his own people.

Extremism is what the world needs to rid off, on BOTH sides. Unfortunatly the only two familar tactics - appeasement and assualt, both fail pretty miserably and bread ever larger groups of extremists, hence the state of the world today.

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by Silent_One

Natoma-
Please clarify. Who do you mean by them? Both sides? How does being smart on how we use our forces in Iraq make a "radical group opposed to peace" chill out?

"Them" and "both sides" meaning the israelies and palestinians. The warmongering israelies and palestinians. We in the US generally call one side Sharon's government, and the other side terrorists, but they all have the same intent. The complete destruction of one another, no matter who gets in the way, i.e. civilians.

Both sides are guilty of those atrocities. Now, we've been able to use our army to put pressure on countries like Iran and Syria to cease their terrorist activities. I see no reason why we couldn't put pressure on the israelies and palestians to do the same thing. Force the two sides to sit down, like a parent would do to two children fighting over the same piece of candy. heh.

[Joe DeFuria]

Originally Posted by Natoma

We in the US generally call one side Sharon's government, and the other side terrorists, but they all have the same intent. The complete destruction of one another, no matter who gets in the way, i.e. civilians.

I disagree.

I don't see Israeli gov't wanting the complete destruction of "palestine", more than they want to exist in a non-violent state. (Not that there aren't some Israelis that would support the complete destruction of palestinians as a means to that end, but I don't see Isreal itself with that position.) I do believe the "Palestinian" authority does want the destruction of Isreal, and is not particularly interested in peaceful coexistence.

Both sides are guilty of those atrocities.

Both sides do have their share of attorcities. Palestinians a larger share.

Now, we've been able to use our army to put pressure on countries like Iran and Syria to cease their terrorist activities. I see no reason why we couldn't put pressure on the israelies and palestians to do the same thing. Force the two sides to sit down, like a parent would do to two children fighting over the same piece of candy. heh.

So...if there's one piece of candy that cannot be "split", what is your solution to the problem with the children? Take the candy away from both and keep it for yourself? Give it to one child and "promise" the other child some concession? How do you determine who gets it, and what the concession is....simply agree to what the "candyless child" demands should be a concession?

[Natoma]

I don't know if one can say the palestinians have a "larger share" of the violence over there. I mean, how much do we actually see of the israeli-on-palestinian atrocities in the media?

Take the woman a few weeks ago who was crushed by a bulldozer. I propose that had she been palestinian and not american, you wouldn't have heard a word about it. However, we hear about every single "suicide bombing" (lets face it, it's just murder. suicide bombing sounds so, sterile. dunno why) and it's front page news.

See the disparity is coverage? I do.

As for the peace process, I think that the Israelies should be required to give up all the new settlements they've created on the West Bank and return them to the Palestinians. The Palestinians should disband Hamas and disavow all support for terrorist networks. And Israel as a country needs to fully integrate the palestinians into their government, with full representation.

I'm not optimistic about the chances of that happening however. I don't think the creation of a palestinian state, separate from Israel, is going to occur or be a long term viable solution. Why? Because the palestinians view Jerusalem just as the Israelies do. Lets not forget that it was Sharon's visit to a holy Islamic Shrine in Jerusalem that triggered the current intifadeh. However, being that Jerusalem is the capital of Israel, one can see how that would get messy.

So it gets back to my original solution of having today's "Israel" be a mesh of jew and arab, with complete representation for both. I just think, given the religious needs of both cultures, that's the only way it's truly going to be resolved.

[Silent_One]

Both sides are guilty of those atrocities. Now, we've been able to use our army to put pressure on countries like Iran and Syria to cease their terrorist activities. I see no reason why we couldn't put pressure on the israelies and palestians to do the same thing. Force the two sides to sit down, like a parent would do to two children fighting over the same piece of candy. heh.

What pressure on Iran and Syria? Are you saying that our armys presents in Iraq, along with some tough talk by Powell and Rumsfield, has caused Iran and Syria to cease their support of terrorist activities? So Syria & Iran have now renounced terrorism?
And now that that's done we simply have to force the "two children" to stop fighting? Or we will.......what?

[RussSchultz]

Or we will.......what?

boycott hummus and tabouli?

[Silent_One]

New Mid-East peace plan launched
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2988373.stm

The "roadmap" was drafted by envoys from the United States, European Union, United Nations and Russia........It calls for an immediate ceasefire, a crackdown on Palestinian militants, an Israeli withdrawal from Palestinian towns and the dismantling of Jewish settlements erected since 2001. ..<sinp>...... Officials on both sides have reacted guardedly to the plan.

Israeli foreign ministry spokesman Mark Sofer told the BBC: "Before anything can happen we are hoping and praying that Abu Mazen takes the bull by the horns and implements what he said he would... He has to really bring an end to terrorism."

Palestinian legislator Hanan Ashrawi, for her part, urged the international community "to make sure that Israel complies by stopping this policy of assassinations, incursions, killings, home demolitions, land confiscations, expansion of settlements".

The Palestinian militant group Hamas rejected the "roadmap" outright.

"It is a plan to liquidate the Palestinian cause," Hamas leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin said.

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by Silent_One

What pressure on Iran and Syria? Are you saying that our armys presents in Iraq, along with some tough talk by Powell and Rumsfield, has caused Iran and Syria to cease their support of terrorist activities? So Syria & Iran have now renounced terrorism?
And now that that's done we simply have to force the "two children" to stop fighting? Or we will.......what?

I said we placed pressure on those countries. I didn't say whether it was successful or not.

If we can place pressure on Iran and Syria with bellicose words, why not Israel and Palestine? Frankly the situation between them concerns most of the arab world, moreso than the deposition of saddam hussein.

[Joe DeFuria]

Originally Posted by Natoma

I said we placed pressure on those countries. I didn't say whether it was successful or not.

If we can place pressure on Iran and Syria with bellicose words, why not Israel and Palestine? Frankly the situation between them concerns most of the arab world, moreso than the deposition of saddam hussein.

That's not a relevant analogy, IMO.

We're not putting pressure on Iran and Syria so that they behave well toward one another. We're putting pressure on them to behave toward us. That's a major difference.

In other words, we are a "first party" in the Syria / Iran case, and a third party in the Israel / Palestinian case.

[Silent_One]

Damn Joe you beat me to it

[Natoma]

However, considering the billions of dollars, as well as military equipment we funnel to Israel, I'm sure we could at least make Israel make concessions. And I'm sure that there are ways to twist the arms of the palestinians as well.