BDA disabling BD-R/RE playback in new Blu-Ray standalones & firmwares to curb piracy!

Ruined · 08-Aug-2007, 16:28

The Blu-Ray Disc Association is permanently crippling BD-R playback in new players now. It is being done to curb piracy, at the expense of people who like to produce their own hidef discs (for weddings, sports events, backups, etc). They are apparently coming out with special AACS blanks, but they aren't available now and it is unknown how compatible they will be - and they could be very expensive.

Say goodbye to open formats like DVD-R/DVD+R if Blu-Ray wins the format war:

Quote:

Originally Posted by paidgeek, Sony Insider/Employee on AVSFORUM

Blu-ray players were never supposed to support BDMV authored content using ordinary data type BD-R or BD-RE media. An exemption was made for a number of months so that available blank discs could be used for testing and other promotional activities; this exemption expired recently...

...The players were not permitted to play movie content from the current blank media to begin with. There was an exception made for a short period of time to help facilitate testing and demonstrations. This issues has been given consideration since before the launch of the format. The fundamental issue is easy to understand. The studios cannot accept the use of blank media for making clones of copyrighted discs. The computer industry wants to empower consumers to fully utilize the format and that is fine, so long as measures are taken to protect copyright...

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post11237686
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&#post11240083
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=886153
http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=25294
http://forums.support.roxio.com/inde...howtopic=23713

pcchen · 09-Aug-2007, 10:13

IMHO, it's acceptable if they have a simplified format which can be easily authored on a DVD-R or a BD-R/RE disc, such as the AVCHD which can be played on Playstation 3. (I think most Blu-ray players can play AVCHD discs, can someone confirm that?) Otherwise, it would be a serious problem because HDV camcorders are very affordable now and I think many people would want to be able to play their edited HD home movies on their HD players.

HD DVD players should be able to play the so-called 3X DVD format, which is essentially a DVD with HD DVD contents.

Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. · 09-Aug-2007, 11:16

And so it begins.

Will we see BR burners that can do bitsetting like the DVD burners that can make discs as DVD-ROM rather than DVD+R/DVD-R ?

Color me Dan · 09-Aug-2007, 23:47

What is an AACS blank? Preloaded with AACS for reading on a BR device?

Either way i don't think Sony would or could keep people from watching their recorded materials on Blu-Ray. They themselves have released Blu-Ray HandyCams and BR writers so no reason to think they'd shoot themselves in the foot.

MfA · 10-Aug-2007, 02:01

Do BR drives have RFID readers? They will either need that or on-line signing to prevent cheap reverse engineered copies of their recordable discs. My guess is even with RFID that will happen though ... these ICs are too easy to reverse engineer. A crippled format like 3X-DVD makes a little more sense, but personally I don't really see the point in having such short duration discs.

pcchen · 10-Aug-2007, 07:25

Current DVD-R/RW does not support CSS. It's impossible to burn CSS-protected DVD on a DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW. There are discussions about making a new CSS-enabled DVD-R specification.

If they decides to go the same route for BD-R/RE, they can easily disable playing any discs without AACS protection. Therefore, any discs burning with a normal, non-AACS BD-R/RE would not play on a Blu-ray player. That mean a BD-R/RE will only be good for storing data, or video not in BDMV formats. It's still possible that a player will play files storing on a BD-R/RE disc, just not in the BDMV formats.

Personally, I think there have to be a good way for home movie makers to make their own discs.

Mintmaster · 12-Aug-2007, 03:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by pcchen

HD DVD players should be able to play the so-called 3X DVD format, which is essentially a DVD with HD DVD contents.

Can they? I've always wondered if a high definition format recorded on a DVD-R can play on the HD-DVD players. What formats do they accept?

A bit OT, but do you know if WMV-HD burnt on a DVD can play on a XBox 360?

pcchen · 12-Aug-2007, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintmaster

Can they? I've always wondered if a high definition format recorded on a DVD-R can play on the HD-DVD players. What formats do they accept?

A bit OT, but do you know if WMV-HD burnt on a DVD can play on a XBox 360?

To my understanding, the 3X DVD format is basically HD DVD contents on a traditional DVD. 3X means the data rate is 3X of a normal DVD, to match the data rate of a 1X HD DVD. There could be other restrictions, though.

About the Xbox 360 thing, I think Xbox 360 can only play your own WMV files through a Media Center PC (it may be changed but I'm not sure about it). The commercial WMV HD discs (such as the Terminator 2 Extreme Edition) can't be played on a Xbox 360.

Sxotty · 21-Aug-2007, 21:27

I am sure HD-DVD will do something as bad, but this is the reason I want HD-DVD to win the war. I simply trust Sony not at all b/c of their past actions. They are on the bottom of my list so anything else is better.

Color me Dan · 22-Aug-2007, 11:32

I keep hearing this an awful lot these days that Sonys past actions makes them untrustworthy. Yet the only thing i can think of would be the DRM scandal which is nothing compared to what other companies have done. Is there a site with some form of recaps that are trustworthy for me to read about this?

As far as i understand they have always pushed for their own formats, but never forced them on users. But as i said, i would love to be able to read up on this.

Silent_Buddha · 23-Aug-2007, 14:22

You only have to look as far as MP3 players to see where Sony shot themselves in the foot and lost to the Ipod years before Apple even came up with the idea of an Ipod.

Sony went from practically dominating the portable music industry (walkman cassette and CD players) to being a complete non-factor with MP3 players due to their insistance for many years that only Sony DRM protected songs could be played on their MP3 players. You could NOT play standard MP3's on sony players for many years. And anything you ripped using the software for the player was automatically DRM'd.

By the time Sony reversed their decision and allowed unprotected MP3's to be played on their players, they'd already gotten a bad reputation and the Ipod was now out and gaining headway. And thus the Ipod brand replaced the old Sony Walkman brand as the HIP thing to have for portable music.

Regards,
SB

Mariner · 23-Aug-2007, 17:34

I briefly owned a Sony Net-minidisc player. A very nice device at the time but the Sony software was absolutely shocking and I soon ditched it for an MP3 player.

Certainly an example of Sony shooting themselves in the foot due to their need to DRM things up the wazoo!

joyroy · 31-Aug-2007, 00:48

And heres the rest of the answer:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post11335652

Quote:

Originally Posted by paidgeek, Sony Pictures Insider on AVSForum

First of all, for those who have been waiting for my follow-up post on this topic, thanks for your patience...

After doing some research, here is what I have been able to clarify.

Blu-ray players first manufactured after Spring of this year are required to support BD-RE v3.0 media (AACS enabled) for playback of recordings where copyright has been asserted (e.g. digital broadcast, managed copy from a Blu-ray movie and similar).
These same players may playback authored content from other sources (e.g. home movies) where copyright is not asserted from either BD-RE V3.0 or v2.1 (currently available) media.

An exception was made for players produced before Spring this year such that they may playback authored BD movie content from BD-RE V2.1 media, even though they may not support V3.0 media. The PS3 is already fully compliant with the latest requirements. Other players may or may not be depending on current firmware revisions.

The simple summary is that a consumer can author their own content as they wish using currently available media and play it back on any player that was released prior to Spring 07' as well as any player released since that time, provided that the player can support BD-RE V3.0 media. If a newer player cannot yet support that media type, then BD-RE 2.1 support can be enabled as soon as firmware allows the player to do so.

The specifications are designed not to inconvenience any customer who wants to author content they own.

joyroy · 31-Aug-2007, 01:00

I guess I can't add links yet.

avsforum dot com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11335652#post11335652

Silent_Buddha · 31-Aug-2007, 18:08

Which begs the question, if someone rips a BD title and strips the AACS info (can this be done?) and then burns it to a BD-ROM, how will the player know?

Or in an extreme case if someone rips a BD title and re-authors it and then burns it to a BD-ROM, how will the player know?

Regards,
SB

joyroy · 31-Aug-2007, 19:22

My guess is the players won't know at all.

So basically piracy will continue.

crespowu · 08-Jan-2008, 10:00

I think it's hard to curb piracy.

adamj · 23-Jan-2009, 18:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by joyroy

My guess is the players won't know at all.

So basically piracy will continue.

I agree, i think there are a lot of people who even doesn't know about Blu-Ray.

Adam Jan,
_________________
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nathan3011 · 26-Feb-2009, 11:34

Piracy is so wide spread i don't see that anything that we can do will ever make it non-existent at all, but i respect Blu-Ray for trying.

I just don't see how they can stamp this out altogether as there is too many people that are ripping off DVD's and pirating them out!

10-Aug-2007, 02:01	#5
MfA Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 3,656	Do BR drives have RFID readers? They will either need that or on-line signing to prevent cheap reverse engineered copies of their recordable discs. My guess is even with RFID that will happen though ... these ICs are too easy to reverse engineer. A crippled format like 3X-DVD makes a little more sense, but personally I don't really see the point in having such short duration discs. Last edited by MfA; 10-Aug-2007 at 02:18.

21-Aug-2007, 21:27	#9
Sxotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Under a Crushing Burden Posts: 3,575	I am sure HD-DVD will do something as bad, but this is the reason I want HD-DVD to win the war. I simply trust Sony not at all b/c of their past actions. They are on the bottom of my list so anything else is better. __________________ You bought horse armor didn't you?

23-Aug-2007, 17:34	#12
Mariner Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 979	I briefly owned a Sony Net-minidisc player. A very nice device at the time but the Sony software was absolutely shocking and I soon ditched it for an MP3 player. Certainly an example of Sony shooting themselves in the foot due to their need to DRM things up the wazoo! __________________ Tha's all I can stands, and I can't stands no more...

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09-Aug-2007, 10:13	#2
pcchen Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Taiwan Posts: 1,555	IMHO, it's acceptable if they have a simplified format which can be easily authored on a DVD-R or a BD-R/RE disc, such as the AVCHD which can be played on Playstation 3. (I think most Blu-ray players can play AVCHD discs, can someone confirm that?) Otherwise, it would be a serious problem because HDV camcorders are very affordable now and I think many people would want to be able to play their edited HD home movies on their HD players. HD DVD players should be able to play the so-called 3X DVD format, which is essentially a DVD with HD DVD contents.

09-Aug-2007, 11:16	#3
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros. Regular Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 5,210	And so it begins. Will we see BR burners that can do bitsetting like the DVD burners that can make discs as DVD-ROM rather than DVD+R/DVD-R ?

09-Aug-2007, 23:47	#4
Color me Dan Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 292	What is an AACS blank? Preloaded with AACS for reading on a BR device? Either way i don't think Sony would or could keep people from watching their recorded materials on Blu-Ray. They themselves have released Blu-Ray HandyCams and BR writers so no reason to think they'd shoot themselves in the foot.

10-Aug-2007, 07:25	#6
pcchen Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Taiwan Posts: 1,555	Current DVD-R/RW does not support CSS. It's impossible to burn CSS-protected DVD on a DVD-R/RW and DVD+R/RW. There are discussions about making a new CSS-enabled DVD-R specification. If they decides to go the same route for BD-R/RE, they can easily disable playing any discs without AACS protection. Therefore, any discs burning with a normal, non-AACS BD-R/RE would not play on a Blu-ray player. That mean a BD-R/RE will only be good for storing data, or video not in BDMV formats. It's still possible that a player will play files storing on a BD-R/RE disc, just not in the BDMV formats. Personally, I think there have to be a good way for home movie makers to make their own discs.

22-Aug-2007, 11:32	#10
Color me Dan Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 292	I keep hearing this an awful lot these days that Sonys past actions makes them untrustworthy. Yet the only thing i can think of would be the DRM scandal which is nothing compared to what other companies have done. Is there a site with some form of recaps that are trustworthy for me to read about this? As far as i understand they have always pushed for their own formats, but never forced them on users. But as i said, i would love to be able to read up on this.

23-Aug-2007, 14:22	#11
Silent_Buddha Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,862	You only have to look as far as MP3 players to see where Sony shot themselves in the foot and lost to the Ipod years before Apple even came up with the idea of an Ipod. Sony went from practically dominating the portable music industry (walkman cassette and CD players) to being a complete non-factor with MP3 players due to their insistance for many years that only Sony DRM protected songs could be played on their MP3 players. You could NOT play standard MP3's on sony players for many years. And anything you ripped using the software for the player was automatically DRM'd. By the time Sony reversed their decision and allowed unprotected MP3's to be played on their players, they'd already gotten a bad reputation and the Ipod was now out and gaining headway. And thus the Ipod brand replaced the old Sony Walkman brand as the HIP thing to have for portable music. Regards, SB

31-Aug-2007, 01:00	#14
joyroy Registered Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	I guess I can't add links yet. avsforum dot com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=11335652#post11335652

31-Aug-2007, 18:08	#15
Silent_Buddha Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 3,862	Which begs the question, if someone rips a BD title and strips the AACS info (can this be done?) and then burns it to a BD-ROM, how will the player know? Or in an extreme case if someone rips a BD title and re-authors it and then burns it to a BD-ROM, how will the player know? Regards, SB

31-Aug-2007, 19:22	#16
joyroy Registered Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 4	My guess is the players won't know at all. So basically piracy will continue.

08-Jan-2008, 10:00	#17
crespowu Registered Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 1	I think it's hard to curb piracy.

26-Feb-2009, 11:34	#19
nathan3011 Registered Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 1	Piracy is so wide spread i don't see that anything that we can do will ever make it non-existent at all, but i respect Blu-Ray for trying. I just don't see how they can stamp this out altogether as there is too many people that are ripping off DVD's and pirating them out!