Beyond3D Forum

Teasy · 03-Dec-2002, 18:14

Can you be more specific about why you don't want to be more specific

Seriously is this sort of thing supposed to be kept secret by developers or are you afraid you'll start a flame war or something?

Because I really can't see how some specifics on Flippers combiner ops can start a flame war here.

ERP · 03-Dec-2002, 19:33

I'm not really worried about flame wars, I try and stay out of them for the most part.

Technically the NDA's cover everything about the hardware. I sometimes skirt the edges of NDA's, if the information is publically available. Conveniently NVidia describe in a lot of detail how NV20 and by inference NV2X functions. Nintendo don't do the same.
The exact function of the Flipper combiner isn't public, so I'd rather stay away from the issue. Personally I can't see any real reason the data is particularly secret, but I did sign the NDA.

Teasy · 03-Dec-2002, 19:38

When does this NDA end? When you stop deving for GameCube?

Its really annoying how secret Nintendo keeps things like this. As you say there just doesn't seem like any good reason to keep this sort of thing secret. Its almost like being secretive for the sake of it.

Blade · 03-Dec-2002, 20:15

Heh, yeah.. there doesn't seem to be a reason for their secrecy.

Then again, outside of the game development sector.. who needs to know? I guess that's their policy..

Luminescent · 03-Dec-2002, 20:45

ERP, I can understand you not being comfortable revealing specifics on the flipper. However, can you tell us if precision-wise (integer precision) it is competitive with the NV2X? Can it execute a significant amount of texture-reads/combiner ops per clock?

These are relative questions, so a yes or no would suffice.

Luminescent · 05-Dec-2002, 15:16

Anyone else with interest?

Glonk · 05-Dec-2002, 20:31

Several copies of the Gamecube SDK documentation have been leaked on the internet. Hardly rampant, though.

Teasy · 05-Dec-2002, 22:09

Glonk

Any idea where I could get one?

Glonk · 05-Dec-2002, 22:22

I have no idea, I only got a look at a couple of the sections (conveniently enough mostly about the TEV) because one of my classmates printed out some of the PDF files and had them at school.

They were very light on technical details, though, I didn't learn anything I didn't already know from these forums for the most part. I was hoping they'd go into more detail on how the TEV works, rather than just how to use it.

Maybe that's in another section I didn't see...

Teasy · 05-Dec-2002, 22:33

If you could find out where your friend got it from that would be great, or even what the file was called so I could search for it myself.

megadrive0088 · 05-Dec-2002, 22:57

i was in a chat last year were several people who had direct knowledge of Flipper talked for well over an hour about the various blocks within Flipper including TEV. i wish i could remember the finer details, but i cant, and i'd probably get it wrong so i won't bother. basicly, the Flipper was able to do thing that even the NV2A in XBox cant do. although NV2A was known to have more features overall.

Flipper's main advantage is it's on-dia 1T-SRAM - slightly over 3MB of it.

Anyway, I am curious about what the GPU/VPU will be for Nintendo's NEXT machine. ATI wants the contract. ATI will unviel R400 in summer 2003. R500 is also being worked on, for i assume, a 2004 release. R500
will be the second major chip from the ArtX/Flipper team (R300 was 1st)
assuming R400 is being done by R200 team. I'd expect the next Nintendo to use a chip that is one or two generations beyond R500.
if R500 comes in 2004, and the next Nintendo in 2006, that's two years after R500. so... either R600 or R700 will be "Flipper2" if you can call it that. there's no telling if Nintendo's next machine will be anything like GameCube. it might be completely different. but the technology is being R&D now, or at least researched...

zurich · 06-Dec-2002, 00:56

Who knows if Nintendo will want to foot the bill on a highend ATI part. They may prefer to go for a Radeon 9500-esque part.

PC-Engine · 06-Dec-2002, 02:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by zurich

Who knows if Nintendo will want to foot the bill on a highend ATI part. They may prefer to go for a Radeon 9500-esque part.

By 2006 the 9500 core would be severely outdated and dirt cheap. I don't think Nintendo wants their next console that crippled and that cheap.

zurich · 06-Dec-2002, 02:43

By 9500-esque I meant a cutdown/lowcost version of the current (for 2006) highend core.

megadrive0088 · 06-Dec-2002, 05:54

Quote:

By 9500-esque I meant a cutdown/lowcost version of the current (for 2006) highend core.

possible. but i was thinking that ATI will be contracted to build a graphics part that is talored to Nintendo's desired specifications. they may start with a R700, take what's not needed, out, and put in what Nintendo wants.
Or it might be a totally new design, apart from the Radeon line.

Blade · 06-Dec-2002, 06:03

It could be another Silicon Graphics/ArtX-esque part with some ATi influence.

PC-Engine · 06-Dec-2002, 07:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by megadrive0088

Quote:

By 9500-esque I meant a cutdown/lowcost version of the current (for 2006) highend core.

possible. but i was thinking that ATI will be contracted to build a graphics part that is talored to Nintendo's desired specifications. they may start with a R700, take what's not needed, out, and put in what Nintendo wants.
Or it might be a totally new design, apart from the Radeon line.

I think the graphics chip will have embedded memory again like Flipper.

03-Dec-2002, 20:15	#29
Blade Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,168	Heh, yeah.. there doesn't seem to be a reason for their secrecy. Then again, outside of the game development sector.. who needs to know? I guess that's their policy.. __________________ Blade "Two suns in the sunset. Could be.. the human race.. is run."

06-Dec-2002, 00:56	#37
zurich Kendoka Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,376	Who knows if Nintendo will want to foot the bill on a highend ATI part. They may prefer to go for a Radeon 9500-esque part. __________________ 12" PowerBook 1.33 Ghz with 20" Cinema Display Athlon XP 2Ghz Windows MCE HTPC flickr me

06-Dec-2002, 02:43	#39
zurich Kendoka Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,376	By 9500-esque I meant a cutdown/lowcost version of the current (for 2006) highend core. __________________ 12" PowerBook 1.33 Ghz with 20" Cinema Display Athlon XP 2Ghz Windows MCE HTPC flickr me

06-Dec-2002, 06:03	#41
Blade Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,168	It could be another Silicon Graphics/ArtX-esque part with some ATi influence. __________________ Blade "Two suns in the sunset. Could be.. the human race.. is run."

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03-Dec-2002, 18:14	#26
Teasy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Newcastle Posts: 4,568	Can you be more specific about why you don't want to be more specific Seriously is this sort of thing supposed to be kept secret by developers or are you afraid you'll start a flame war or something? Because I really can't see how some specifics on Flippers combiner ops can start a flame war here.

03-Dec-2002, 19:33	#27
ERP Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Redmond, WA Posts: 3,146	I'm not really worried about flame wars, I try and stay out of them for the most part. Technically the NDA's cover everything about the hardware. I sometimes skirt the edges of NDA's, if the information is publically available. Conveniently NVidia describe in a lot of detail how NV20 and by inference NV2X functions. Nintendo don't do the same. The exact function of the Flipper combiner isn't public, so I'd rather stay away from the issue. Personally I can't see any real reason the data is particularly secret, but I did sign the NDA.

03-Dec-2002, 19:38	#28
Teasy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Newcastle Posts: 4,568	When does this NDA end? When you stop deving for GameCube? Its really annoying how secret Nintendo keeps things like this. As you say there just doesn't seem like any good reason to keep this sort of thing secret. Its almost like being secretive for the sake of it.

03-Dec-2002, 20:45	#30
Luminescent Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 1,036	ERP, I can understand you not being comfortable revealing specifics on the flipper. However, can you tell us if precision-wise (integer precision) it is competitive with the NV2X? Can it execute a significant amount of texture-reads/combiner ops per clock? These are relative questions, so a yes or no would suffice.

05-Dec-2002, 15:16	#31
Luminescent Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 1,036	Anyone else with interest?

05-Dec-2002, 20:31	#32
Glonk Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Markham, Ontario Posts: 334	Several copies of the Gamecube SDK documentation have been leaked on the internet. Hardly rampant, though.

05-Dec-2002, 22:09	#33
Teasy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Newcastle Posts: 4,568	Glonk Any idea where I could get one?

05-Dec-2002, 22:22	#34
Glonk Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Markham, Ontario Posts: 334	I have no idea, I only got a look at a couple of the sections (conveniently enough mostly about the TEV) because one of my classmates printed out some of the PDF files and had them at school. They were very light on technical details, though, I didn't learn anything I didn't already know from these forums for the most part. I was hoping they'd go into more detail on how the TEV works, rather than just how to use it. Maybe that's in another section I didn't see...

05-Dec-2002, 22:33	#35
Teasy Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Newcastle Posts: 4,568	If you could find out where your friend got it from that would be great, or even what the file was called so I could search for it myself.

05-Dec-2002, 22:57	#36
megadrive0088 Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 700	i was in a chat last year were several people who had direct knowledge of Flipper talked for well over an hour about the various blocks within Flipper including TEV. i wish i could remember the finer details, but i cant, and i'd probably get it wrong so i won't bother. basicly, the Flipper was able to do thing that even the NV2A in XBox cant do. although NV2A was known to have more features overall. Flipper's main advantage is it's on-dia 1T-SRAM - slightly over 3MB of it. Anyway, I am curious about what the GPU/VPU will be for Nintendo's NEXT machine. ATI wants the contract. ATI will unviel R400 in summer 2003. R500 is also being worked on, for i assume, a 2004 release. R500 will be the second major chip from the ArtX/Flipper team (R300 was 1st) assuming R400 is being done by R200 team. I'd expect the next Nintendo to use a chip that is one or two generations beyond R500. if R500 comes in 2004, and the next Nintendo in 2006, that's two years after R500. so... either R600 or R700 will be "Flipper2" if you can call it that. there's no telling if Nintendo's next machine will be anything like GameCube. it might be completely different. but the technology is being R&D now, or at least researched...

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