Beyond3D Forum

antlers · 29-Mar-2003, 15:05

when we do this?

If one violates the Geneva Conventions, so does the other, certainly.

epicstruggle · 29-Mar-2003, 15:21

actually i dont think you get what is happening. You equate military personal dressing in civilian clothes(what iraq is doing) and government employees conducting covert intelligence and assasinations (what the cia is doing). There is a difference.
-if a soldier is captured he has some rights under the geneva convention
-if a cia operative is captured, he has absolutly no rights under the geneva convention since he is not a soldier.

Im almost 100% positive that what i have stated is correct. However if you find information that contradicts what i have stated. Please post. Thank you.

later,

Sxotty · 29-Mar-2003, 15:28

Well I will grant that is actually a good point. There is one difference though, they do it so that more civillians can get killed, and we do it to try and keep more people from dying.

Of course just because you have a legitmate excuse it is still not excusable, and that is why earlier I stated that people who dress in civillian clothing do not fall under the protection of the geneva convention, therefore if they are taken POW they have to expect to be shot in the forehead and left to rot. If no one minds if we kill all surrendering iraqis who have fought dressed as civillians than I say its fair.

edit:
I see you beat me too it epic struggle, and you have bullited points I am out done

RM. Andersson · 29-Mar-2003, 15:32

Someone in civilan clothes that is fighting has no rights at all according to the geneva convention.
And if other civilians get killed as a result of his actions he is responsible for it.

I mean if soldiers in civilian clothes are standing in the middle of a crowd and they attack other soldiers it´s their fault if the real civilians get killed.
The other soldiers have the right to shoot back if they would die if they didn´t. And they cant be blamed in any way after something like that.

epicstruggle · 29-Mar-2003, 15:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sxotty

edit:
I see you beat me too it epic struggle, and you have bullited points I am out done

We still have made the same general points. My only problem is that some of the fadawen(sp?) troops are forcing (holding guns to the heads of children) civilians to fight for them. I wish saddam would fight with a little bit more honor. I would hate to know that we killed civilians fighting to keep their children from being shot and only because of that.

later,

RM. Andersson · 29-Mar-2003, 15:58

It´s very difficult if the enemy respects no rules at all and is using every dirty trick there is. That will hurt civilians. But the enemy must be blamed for it. Because such enemy can often decide where and how to fight. Not always but sometimes there will be no other choice than to fight on his terms.

Bogotron · 29-Mar-2003, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by RM. Andersson

Someone in civilan clothes that is fighting has no rights at all according to the geneva convention.

Actually, in the Geneva convention if a civilian sees an invading army and takes up weapons to fight for his country, even without being enrolled in a military unit, he is still awarded POW status.

Article 4 subsection A-6:
"6. Inhabitants of a non-occupied territory, who on the approach of the enemy spontaneously take up arms to resist the invading forces, without having had time to form themselves into regular armed units, provided they carry arms openly and respect the laws and customs of war."

So fighters in civilian clothes do sometimes have rights. The tricky part is figuring out if they really are civilians or undercover army personell (militay uniform under civilian clothes is a dead giveaway, everything else might be trickier). And if there is any doubt about their status:

Article 5:
"Should any doubt arise as to whether persons, having committed a belligerent act and having fallen into the hands of the enemy, belong to any of the categories enumerated in Article 4, such persons shall enjoy the protection of the present Convention until such time as their status has been determined by a competent tribunal."

Again, "competent" being up for considerable debate.

epicstruggle · 29-Mar-2003, 16:31

makes it more clear. Remember thought that the coalition has called the people who have surrendered or have been captured "ePOWs" (enemy POWs) maybe this is the way they decided to deal with all these dirty tricks.

later,

29-Mar-2003, 15:05	#1
antlers Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 457	How can we complain about Iraqi fighters in civilian clothes when we do this? If one violates the Geneva Conventions, so does the other, certainly.

29-Mar-2003, 15:21	#2
epicstruggle Passenger on Serenity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Object in Space Posts: 1,891	actually i dont think you get what is happening. You equate military personal dressing in civilian clothes(what iraq is doing) and government employees conducting covert intelligence and assasinations (what the cia is doing). There is a difference. -if a soldier is captured he has some rights under the geneva convention -if a cia operative is captured, he has absolutly no rights under the geneva convention since he is not a soldier. Im almost 100% positive that what i have stated is correct. However if you find information that contradicts what i have stated. Please post. Thank you. later, __________________ "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts"

29-Mar-2003, 16:31	#8
epicstruggle Passenger on Serenity Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Object in Space Posts: 1,891	makes it more clear. Remember thought that the coalition has called the people who have surrendered or have been captured "ePOWs" (enemy POWs) maybe this is the way they decided to deal with all these dirty tricks. later, __________________ "everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts"

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29-Mar-2003, 15:28	#3
Sxotty Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Under a Crushing Burden Posts: 4,290	Well I will grant that is actually a good point. There is one difference though, they do it so that more civillians can get killed, and we do it to try and keep more people from dying. Of course just because you have a legitmate excuse it is still not excusable, and that is why earlier I stated that people who dress in civillian clothing do not fall under the protection of the geneva convention, therefore if they are taken POW they have to expect to be shot in the forehead and left to rot. If no one minds if we kill all surrendering iraqis who have fought dressed as civillians than I say its fair. edit: I see you beat me too it epic struggle, and you have bullited points I am out done

29-Mar-2003, 15:32	#4
RM. Andersson Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 26	Someone in civilan clothes that is fighting has no rights at all according to the geneva convention. And if other civilians get killed as a result of his actions he is responsible for it. I mean if soldiers in civilian clothes are standing in the middle of a crowd and they attack other soldiers it´s their fault if the real civilians get killed. The other soldiers have the right to shoot back if they would die if they didn´t. And they cant be blamed in any way after something like that.

29-Mar-2003, 15:58	#6
RM. Andersson Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 26	It´s very difficult if the enemy respects no rules at all and is using every dirty trick there is. That will hurt civilians. But the enemy must be blamed for it. Because such enemy can often decide where and how to fight. Not always but sometimes there will be no other choice than to fight on his terms.

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