[Jawed]

IQ is also a missing piece. R600 might have R5xx quality AF and 8xMSAA - both of which will lead to much merriment, regardless of performance.

Jawed

[trinibwoy]

Originally Posted by Geo

Ghod.

Everyone who expects R600 to get ass-handed like the below, please raise your hand so we can laugh at you. I'm comparing "Application" to "Quality".

You tell em geo. I wish Kyle would post that on his front page and put his reputation on the line. Or is it too late for that?

But what's with all the euphemisms for the almighty. I've seen Ghod and Ghu so far - are you really avoiding calling his name in vain by moving around some letters?

[INKster]

Originally Posted by Jawed

IQ is also a missing piece. R600 might have R5xx quality AF and 8xMSAA - both of which will lead to much merriment, regardless of performance.

Jawed

Maybe he was talking about power consumption, noise, etc, and not necessarily about performance.
Beats me.

But i admit [H]'s quality has certainly decreased lately.
The last article about Vista has details unworthy of an enthusiast tech website.

[trinibwoy]

Originally Posted by Jawed

IQ is also a missing piece. R600 might have R5xx quality AF and 8xMSAA - both of which will lead to much merriment, regardless of performance.

Jawed

Of course but delays or Barcelona are completely irrelevant there. It's not like IQ improves over time and it certainly isn't helped along by a faster CPU. Now I really want to see AMD's angle on this whole thing. I'm not sure if R600's performance would change my opinion on the whole thing but I'd be more open to the strategic delay as a possibility if its gaming performance is below expectation.

INKster - can't really stamp something with the 5800 brand without referring to performance can you? I'm leaning towards Kyle being insane

[Jawed]

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Uh yeah and how would launching earlier have precluded that exactly? If Barcelona is going to be used to make R600 look good then that's silly because R600 will be benched against the competition on the same CPU. If R600 is going to be used to make Barcelona look good what was the purpose of delaying R600? So from a performance perspective what exactly is the point? Your heavier-duty, CPU tests would matter for nought just like they matter for nought in the current 3dmark since the score is identical for all graphics cards tested.

I guess "impact" is what we're left with? Please show me how launching R600 earlier would change the performance standing of AMD hardware?

Apart from anything else, can NVidia get 3DMk07 benching decently - maybe that's why their Vista drivers are so shit, they're concentrating on maximising 07 performance? Though the later AMD leaves R600, the more time they get

What if Barcelona, RD790 and R600 are joined by PCI-Express 2.0 and 07 is sensitive to this bandwidth? Regardless of that, optimising for 07 is easier if you own the entire system. NVidia's not going to have any Barcelonas for a while yet

Sadly, the headline 3DMk score is the only one that gets quoted in forums, on packaging, in adverts blah blah blah...

Jawed

[Geo]

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

But what's with all the euphemisms for the almighty. I've seen Ghod and Ghu so far - are you really avoiding calling his name in vain by moving around some letters?

Habits from a different subculture. . . (science fiction fans of a certain age)

[trinibwoy]

Originally Posted by Jawed

Apart from anything else, can NVidia get 3DMk07 benching decently - maybe that's why their Vista drivers are so shit, they're concentrating on maximising 07 performance? Though the later AMD leaves R600, the more time they get

Heh, well I don't know what to say to that. I can't fathom a world where decisions like this revolve around 3dmark07. I don't think I have enough of an imagination to go there. But maybe that's why Kyle is mad? Because AMD's obsession with 3dmark is against everything he's trying to do with his "gameplay evaluation" review style?

[Geeforcer]

I asked the question 3 pages ago and since it has not been answered yet I'll repeat it:

While the drawbacks of a delay are obvious, what are a tangible benefits of delaying R600? (and no, IMPACT! does count). What market dynamic will take place that will not only make up for losses associated with delay but also deliver additional profit to AMD VS the original launch schedule?

The "family launch" or "Barcelona demo" by themselves do not explain anything, since I have yet to see the breakdown of why Mid-March launch of R600 would negatively impact RVxxx launch in Mid-May OR render R600+K10 demo irrelevant.

[dnavas]

Originally Posted by Robin B

Why do everyone compare it to the 8800GTX when it`s going to be 6 months later ? Guess we all know that NV is ready when the R600 is out ....

Look at Geo's graphs above. The 9700 Pro was out roughly half a year before the 5800 Ultra as well (I see 9700 in Aug of 2002, while reviews of the Ultra popped up in late Jan 2003).

R600 might fail to "win" against an Ultra, or a GX2, but that doesn't make it a 5800....

I'm not sure why we're wasting the effort to justify Kyle's statement, but, if I was going to join in that (), maybe R600 went backwards on IQ (AF) to compete on benchmarks to where they thought G8 might land way back when.... *That* would be received pretty badly. It seems unlikely, though.

[Jawed]

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Of course but delays or Barcelona are completely irrelevant there. It's not like IQ improves over time and it certainly isn't helped along by a faster CPU.

No, but a big part of the 5800 picture was the atrocious IQ - some of which arose because IQ was lowered solely for benchmarking. It won't be as big a difference this time round, but it's just another of the nail's in that coffin that might get a second moment of glory.

Jawed

[Kaotik]

Originally Posted by Robin B

Why do everyone compare it to the 8800GTX when it`s going to be 6 months later ? Guess we all know that NV is ready when the R600 is out ....

Yes we do, it's been in the drivers for a while I think? By the name "8800 Ultra" which means 8800GTX with higher clocks. There's no indications of "G81" like chip as far as I know.

[Razor1]

Originally Posted by Geeforcer

I asked the question 3 pages ago and since it has not been answered yet I'll repeat it:

While the drawbacks of a delay are obvious, what are a tangible benefits of delaying R600? (and no, IMPACT! does count). What market dynamic will take place that will not only make up for losses associated with delay but also deliver additional profit to AMD VS the original launch schedule?

The "family launch" or "Barcelona demo" by themselves do not explain anything, since I have yet to see the breakdown of why Mid-March launch of R600 would negatively impact RVxxx launch in Mid-May OR render R600+K10 demo irrelevant.

simply put nothing, AMD is doing what they think its best with what they are delt with, it might not be the best of options they have taken, but best of options that are avialable to them.

[Anarchist4000]

Maybe the R600==5800 comparison was in reference to the work that went into the drivers. The old comparison would be ATI didn't spend much time optimizing drivers while Nvidia(to make up performance) spent a significant amount of time. The current would be the opposite where ATI spent a lot of time on drivers(making them stable for all OS's) while Nvidia didn't spent much time(completely dropping the ball on driver development). That's one messed up comparison but worth a shot. lol

As for the R600 and Barcelona AMD stated that for a desktop there isn't much to show because not many apps would take advantage of 4 cores over 2. How many times has anyone actually seen 100% CPU usage on a dual core outside of compressing something? Graphics are the one area where you might be able to take advantage of it and really demonstrate the power of the chip. I'm still curious if Barcelona will act like 4 cores or possibly revert to one giant core under certain cases. If you start processing vectors it would seem you could stretch the operations out over all 4 cores and run in parallel. That could have a rather significant impact for games if it was set up correctly.

Any chance they could be planning on launching R600 and Barcelona with a Crysis demo? If DX10 is beneficial to R600 it would make sense that they would attempt to showcase that advantage.

[BRiT]

Originally Posted by Geeforcer

While the drawbacks of a delay are obvious, what are a tangible benefits of delaying R600? (and no, IMPACT! does count). What market dynamic will take place that will not only make up for losses associated with delay but also deliver additional profit to AMD VS the original launch schedule?

It gives them more time to clear the channel of the older X1xxx series parts?

Other than that, I see nothing. We will never know the real reason the launch was delayed. It will always be spun by PRsters.

On another note, maybe the R600 == Nv5800 means in a month or so they will release the R650 which will greatly improve it's performance even more so.

[trinibwoy]

Stepping back a bit, who is going to be most impacted by whatever AMD shows behind closed in the next few weeks? The independent reviewers will be using their own CPU's supposedly. So who would AMD be targeting with this showcase? OEM's? Wall Street?

[3dilettante]

Originally Posted by Anarchist4000

I'm still curious if Barcelona will act like 4 cores or possibly revert to one giant core under certain cases. If you start processing vectors it would seem you could stretch the operations out over all 4 cores and run in parallel. That could have a rather significant impact for games if it was set up correctly.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say no. Everything shown so far shows the cores are completely separate.
There's no good way to make four separate cores come together and work off the same thread. There's too much communication and too many sources of error to make it possible to do very quickly.

[Razor1]

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

Stepping back a bit, who is going to be most impacted by whatever AMD shows behind closed in the next few weeks? The independent reviewers will be using their own CPU's supposedly. So who would AMD be targeting with this showcase? OEM's? Wall Street?

not wall street, stock prices would go up anyways if thier products are good since they will help top and bottom lines, and stock price I don't think is a major concern (on a scale) over other problems.

Possibly OEM's, but high end products are only a fraction of OEM sales, so doesn't make much sense unless AMD is going to be doing something spectacular that no other company can touch is really the only justification that would be presumable and we know how many times that happens in a saturated market.

[INKster]

Originally Posted by BRiT

On another note, maybe the R600 == Nv5800 means in a month or so they will release the R650 which will greatly improve it's performance even more so.

And risk an Osborne Effect ? Not a chance...

[overclocked_enthusiasm]

Originally Posted by trinibwoy

I'm still a bit confused by this Barcelona factor that people are pushing. How exactly is Barcelona going to sell more GPU's and how is R600 going to sell more CPU's? It would be just as fast in May had it launched months ago. Please don't say it's the "impact" of a combined launch

I guess this is what I am saying. AMD has an image problem right now on 2 fronts.

1. Their CPUs are considered inferior to Intel's
2. Their GPUs are considered inferior to Nvidia's

In order to benchmark the R600 against the 8800 GTX they would have almost had to use a Core2Duo in some cases as that is the top CPU used to benchmark right now and that is where Nvida has their highest scores I assume. That would have made AMD look stupid and confirmed #1 above that Intel is fastest/better and only solved #2 IF iR600 really did beat G80.

Now by waiting, they can kill 2 birds with one stone and try to regain that lost mindshare via having the best/fastest GPU and CPU. No the quadcore Barcelona isn't going to be a desktop gaming part in general but they will argue that it shows "what is to come". AMD has an image problem and are considered a laggard right now. This is 1/2 PR and 1/2 good business. They certainly sacrificed some R600 family sales (assuming they were ready in volume) by delaying but they have bigger fish to fry than GPU sales right now.

It is no coincidence IMHO that Barcelona is being shown for the first time with R600 and RD790. AMD is selling their platform approach with arguably the best tech in all 3 categories IF they can pull it off. This positive PR buzz may jumpstart their lagging sales and certainly help to repair the "AMD is falling behind Intel" mindset that is taking root. Not to mention that this platform wide approach now makes alot more sense in May then it did in February considering the slow upgrade path of Vista.

[nutball]

Originally Posted by Geeforcer

I asked the question 3 pages ago and since it has not been answered yet I'll repeat it:

While the drawbacks of a delay are obvious, what are a tangible benefits of delaying R600? (and no, IMPACT! does count).

Well there's also the question of the tangible benefit of a 512-bit memory bus, which has gone unanswered for three months. Maybe the two are related, who knows. 5800 had a wrong-sized memory bus I believe, maybe that's what it's all about. It was a totally inappropriate solution compared to what the competition had on the market at the time, because the competition had wrong-footed them.

[trinibwoy]

Originally Posted by overclocked_enthusiasm

In order to benchmark the R600 against the 8800 GTX they would have almost had to use a Core2Duo in some cases as that is the top CPU used to benchmark right now and that is where Nvida has their highest scores I assume. That would have made AMD look stupid and confirmed #1 above that Intel is fastest/better and only solved #2 IF iR600 really did beat G80.

I see what you're trying to say but I differ on a couple points. R600 beating G80 on Core 2 Duo would not have diminished AMD's CPU reputation - everybody already knows that they are behind - there's nothing futher to prove. Regarding the last sentence in the above quote I believe you have to assume R600 does beat G80 for your point to stick.

This is 1/2 PR and 1/2 good business.

Agreed on the PR, not on the good business. If you are lagging the competition and are trying to catch up you would want to get your stars out on the field as soon as possible - you wouldn't wait till everything is "perfect". The competition isn't standing still while you wait for all your stars to line up.

It would be very nice for AMD if they can demonstrate that they are firing on all cylinders in CPU, GPU and chipset. But I don't believe it will have the impact on sales that some believe (compared to an early R600 launch). Maybe they are just taking time to regroup after the merger (that may be what you're saying). When will desktop variants of Barcelona come to market anyway?

[3dilettante]

Originally Posted by overclocked_enthusiasm

Now by waiting, they can kill 2 birds with one stone and try to regain that lost mindshare via having the best/fastest GPU and CPU. No the quadcore Barcelona isn't going to be a desktop gaming part in general but they will argue that it shows "what is to come". AMD has an image problem and are considered a laggard right now. This is 1/2 PR and 1/2 good business. They certainly sacrificed some R600 family sales (assuming they were ready in volume) by delaying but they have bigger fish to fry than GPU sales right now.

Barcelona would be a bad choice to show it isn't a laggard for the R600's target market.
A quad core pre-release Barcelona at a maximum of 2.4 GHz is not likely to match a 3 GHz dual core A64 at any game or gaming benchmark due to its reduced single-threaded performance.

If AMD tries to use Barcelona+R600 as a way to appeal to gamers, it is a very poor choice.

R600 will be CPU-limited, and Barcelona will get negative press in a market it is completely unsuited for.

It is no coincidence IMHO that Barcelona is being shown for the first time with R600 and RD790.

Actually, it could be argued it is. If R600 wasn't so late, it would have been out 6 months prior to Barcelona's earliest production silicon (rumor has it it is close to this point). Barcelona is likely still months out from launch for servers. It is a quarter or more beyond that for a desktop variant.

The family launch is a fun coincidence they're trying to spin like they've planned it all along.

[Geeforcer]

Originally Posted by overclocked_enthusiasm

I guess this is what I am saying. AMD has an image problem right now on 2 fronts.

1. Their CPUs are considered inferior to Intel's
2. Their GPUs are considered inferior to Nvidia's

In order to benchmark the R600 against the 8800 GTX they would have almost had to use a Core2Duo in some cases as that is the top CPU used to benchmark right now and that is where Nvida has their highest scores I assume. That would have made AMD look stupid and confirmed #1 above that Intel is fastest/better and only solved #2 IF iR600 really did beat G80.

Now by waiting, they can kill 2 birds with one stone and try to regain that lost mindshare via having the best/fastest GPU and CPU. No the quadcore Barcelona isn't going to be a desktop gaming part in general but they will argue that it shows "what is to come". AMD has an image problem and are considered a laggard right now. This is 1/2 PR and 1/2 good business. They certainly sacrificed some R600 family sales (assuming they were ready in volume) by delaying but they have bigger fish to fry than GPU sales right now.

It is no coincidence IMHO that Barcelona is being shown for the first time with R600 and RD790. AMD is selling their platform approach with arguably the best tech in all 3 categories IF they can pull it off. This positive PR buzz may jumpstart their lagging sales and certainly help to repair the "AMD is falling behind Intel" mindset that is taking root. Not to mention that this platform wide approach now makes alot more sense in May then it did in February considering the slow upgrade path of Vista.

IMO there are several problems with this argument. I fully agree that AMD is not thrilled by having to match its GPUs with Core 2s for the best performance. But, the launch event itself is not going to sell GPUs - the reviews will and unless AMD is shipping a K10 system to every reviewer this is moot point. Furthermore, considering IQ setting high-end cards are benchmarked at nowadays, K10 Vs Core 2 Vs Athlon X2 will have little to none impact on the results, at least in single GPU configuration.

Another point that need to be emphasized is that K10 is NOT being lunched at this time - we are still several months away from that release. As such, this is not going to jump-start their lagging CPU sales for the simple reason that there are no CPUs to buy. So is the argument now that people are more likely to buy R600 because it was demoed with K10s at the launch event then they would have been had it already been released and this will offset lost sales due to delay? I mean, I can't dismiss the possibly that there are people who would have read X2900 reviews on March 20th and would not have wanted one, but after hearing about the launch event and reading reviews on May 20th will all of the suddenly want one... but I have hard time believed that there are enough of them for AMD to go through the embarrassment of canceled launch.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the consumer K10 is not due till Fall. Try as I might I have trouble envisioning how delaying R600 NOW will make people more likely to buy CPUs THEN.

[overclocked_enthusiasm]

I didn't realize the single threaded performance disadvantage of Barcelona in benchmarking today's games. You guys are infinitely smarter than I on those topics.

In that case, I am going to resort back to my original position that they botched the launch so bad that it ran into the other cards so they decided to do a whole family launch instead...an attempt to make lemonaid out of lemons.

[jimmyjames123]

While I can see why some may find it appealing to have a "family" launch, think of the nightmare it will cause for reviewers. All of a sudden they would have to work up articles on so many different brand new products all at once. Since time is limited, that would mean that the reviewers may not be able to go into as much depth on each specific hardware piece as they may have wanted to.

If R600 hardware was ready to ship last month, and quantities were considered good and drivers were considered good, then it would make little sense not to launch it. Clearly the R600 was deficient in one or more of these areas as of last month. Note that AMD is stressing that the R600 hardware is good to go and could have been shipped already, but they don't mention anything about having very good quanties or having optimal drivers to back that up.