[epicstruggle]

I was watching the news, and saw that about 1000 people were arrested at a protest in San Franscisco. My questions are: should penalties for not peacefully protesting be more severe, how much protesting should you do while troops are dying overseas, should you riot? (Please remember that currently the alert level in the US is high, the 2nd highest level)

Here is text from http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/03/20/spr....ap/index.html:

San Francisco had some of the largest anti-war activity, hobbling the morning commute. Thousands in roving bands temporarily took control of some downtown streets and closed several exits from the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge. Smaller splinter groups broke windows, heaved debris into streets and occasionally scuffled with police. Some protesters hurled rocks at trains, briefly halting service at a station in nearby Oakland

If police are trying to keep cities safe during times where threat of terrorist activity is high, should you be able to protest so destructively. I have no problem with protest that are peacefull, but at some point I would not mind slapping these self-serving people in jail for months at a time.

later,

[DemoCoder]

I heard these people on the radio. They said that since their voices were not heard in the protests before the war, they will SHUT DOWN THE ECONOMY and LIFE in the city so that their voice may be heard.

I question their right to do this, but moreover, what next? What if they are ignored this time and the war continues? Will they go further in their economic sabotage and actually destroy property or attempt political violence like in the 60s? Essentially, are these protesters willing to commit, in essence, dosmetic terrorism, because people won't listen to them? How far as they going to take this?

If you voice isn't heard, there are other ways to protest. Rather than SCREAM AT THE TOP OF YOUR LUNGS, INCOMPRENSIBLE SOUNDBITES, how about getting each protestor to contribute $10 and take out full page ads in every newspaper, or buy airtime? Hell, if you add up all the cities, there are supposedly hundreds of thousands of protestors, they could really wield some economic power.

If 10,000 people are taking off work for a whole day to protest, they are likely losing $1milllion in earnings total, that's more than enough to buy press, without sabotaging the entire city, so why not pay $10-80 instead to broadcast your message, in a well written, comprehensible form.


In california, they shut down the bus system. CHILDREN WERE UNABLE TO GET TO SCHOOL, SOME WERE TRAPPED IN THE CITY UNABLE TO GET HOME. One mother called the radio station saying her child was prevented from taking an EXAM because of the shutdown of the transportation system by the protesters.


Protesters think that if they walk around with signs saying "Bush == Hitler", and simply act ANGRY, it conveys their point, but all it really does is make them look like unreasonable lunatics.

But what's worse than someone who is an incomprensible socialist looney chomskyite, is someone who VOMITS and SHITS on the street, and tries to prevent people from going to work. That isn't going to buy you support.

[pax]

They arent all like that. Youll find all kinds in a large protest tho... any large protest...

[epicstruggle]

Originally Posted by pax

They arent all like that. Youll find all kinds in a large protest tho... any large protest...

1000/1000s sounds like a pretty big percentage to me. I say jail them for at least 3 months if they get violent, or dont follow the protest permitt they had to get.

the peace movement really isnt all that peacefull, and a large part of it, probably consists of radicals.

later,

[Babel-17]

I'm not in favor of protests that break the laws we need to live together. We all have beliefs and causes but we can't arbitrarily decide when we'll play by society's rules. One needs to ask if it meets the historical criteria.

But IIRC some ads have been refused by the media. The ads pushed the limits but the refusals to run them were I think judgement calls. The main thing is that this isn't a declared war in the traditional sense. So in a way people are at a bit more of a remove from the process.

That's still not a justification for antisocial behavior, I'm just trying to give some input to the context that I see being framed here.

[epicstruggle]

Whats interesting is that if they were in Iraq, these people would all be gassed, if not tortured, for protesting the government. I love the dichotomy.

later,

[Vince]

I think no American should question their ability to protest, for it's a very core belief which many would die to preserve.

But, having said that, it should be noted that, as was actually quite elequently stated in the Spiderman movie, With power comes responcibility and just because the government provides said rights, doesn'tmean they should be excersized when their effect is to the detriment of the Union.

While many leftists here, particularly those who hail from Europe, will tell you that nationalism and patriotism is a plague, a disease - I and history will show that the just love of a nation and the ideologies it stands for is a bond which will prevail. When our fellow citizens are fighting, we need to rally together, we need to support them, we need to become one as the Senate so gracefully has done.


Our troops today are fighting a rightous and just war against an enemy of the state whose very history demonstrates why this course of action is a necessity. Our fellow citizens in arms don't deserve this, just as the Soldiers didn't post-Vietnam. I consider said actions as elaborated by Democoder to border on treasonous for their effects in aiding enemies of the state by creating civil disturbace, chaos, and to deliberatly creating conditions which are adventagous to enemy states at the expense of the security of this nation. I'd support the enaction of regionalized Martial Law and the temporary suspension of Writs of Habeas Corpus with the intention of removing the domestic threat so that the resource of the US could be focused on the domestic protection of the Consititution and it's citizens.

PS. Did those idiots end up trying to break into Vandenberg AFB so they could distrupt our Space Ops handeled out of there? I'd like to see them try, and fail in a hail of fire. I once worked with a guy who was AirForce security at a MinutemanIII silo in the very early '90s and these guys don't play around when it comes to breaches.

[DemoCoder]

I actually don't care if people protest the war (as much as I think it is utterly useless, since pulling out now would be far more dangerous and damaging to the future than finishing, what I disagree with is their methods.


Protest all you want, but don't

1) destroy property
2) hurt people (throwing rocks)
3) trepass on private property
4) seek to cause chaos
5) *obstruct people's freedom* (surround their car, block them, prevent them from entering their office building, stop their children from going to school, etc)

Learn from Ghandi, Martin Luther King, etc about how to peacefully protest, without acting like a terrorist.

[Vince]

I think we're in full agreement and you articulated it very well. I just had to say that this line of your's should be repeated, although it's effect would be negligable.

Originally Posted by DemoCoder

Learn from Ghandi, Martin Luther King, etc about how to peacefully protest, without acting like a terrorist.

[Silent_One]

epicstruggle wrote:

the peace movement really isnt all that peacefull, and a large part of it, probably consists of radicals.

I agree. heres an example of some of the more extreme advocates:
Craig Rosebraugh on the Anti-War struggle
http://www.phillyimc.org/article.pl?...mp;mode=thread

The only possibility of stopping this current military action is to engage in strategies and tactics which severely disrupt the war machine, the U.S. economy, and the overall functioning of U.S. society particularly how it relates to consumerism and the economy. Marches, picketing, rallies, parties, benefits, civil disobedience and even property destruction are pointless, and perhaps even counterproductive, unless they serve to severely disrupt the functioning of the political system and its economy. An atmosphere of severe unrest, if manufactured properly, will force the U.S. government to place military resources in the streets of the United States, will threaten the economy (the chief motive behind this military excursion) of the United States, and ultimately create a political atmosphere unfavorable for Bush to continue on with the war........So how is an atmosphere of severe unrest and disruption generated?.......

1) Attack the financial centers of the country. Using covert or black block techniques, depending on the situation, physically shut down financial centers which regulate and assist the functioning of U.S. economy. This can be done in a variety of ways from massive property destruction, to online sabotage, to physical occupation of buildings. However the latter I would shy away from, especially the open civil disobedience type of activities which purposely involve arrests. This movement needs all the assistance it can get and absolutely NO good will come from going to jail. Allowing yourself to be purposely arrested demonstrates that an individual has at least some faith in the U.S. legal system. This is completely foolish. One primary objective is to engage in serious unrest and disruption and NOT to get caught. Not getting caught means you are able to continue the struggle the next day.

2) Large scale urban rioting. With massive unrest and even state of emergencies declared in major cities across the country, the U.S. government will be forced to send U.S. troops into the domestic arena thereby taking resources and political focus away from the war. Unstable conditions in much of the country also serve as a political embarrassment for the Administration and could assist in forcing them to stop the war to deal with domestic concerns. Rioting should be focused on governmental agencies and corporations – especially those that are profiting from the war or destruction of life.

3) Attack the media centers of the country. It is the corporate media who has and continues to influence and control the minds of the mass body of people in the United States. These new media outlets cannot be utilized by the movement as they are owned by the very corporations one should be opposing. Using any means necessary, shut down the national networks of NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, etc. Not just occupations but actually engage in strategies and tactics which knock the networks off the air.

4) Spread the battle to the individuals responsible for the war and destruction of life – the very heads of government and U.S. corporations. No longer should these people be able to hide behind their occupations, living their lives in peace while they simultaneously slaughter countless people. Hit them in their personal lives, visit their homes, and make them feel personally responsible for committing massive atrocities.

5) Make it known publicly that this movement DOES NOT support U.S. troops as long as they are serving an unjust and horrifying political regime. Create an atmosphere lacking of support to assist U.S. troops at home and abroad in losing their morale and will to fight. If you are supporting the troops you are supporting this war and the very U.S. government that is the primary terrorist regime in the international arena.

6) Actively target U.S. military establishments within the United States. Again, following the above stated goal of NOT getting caught, use any means necessary to slow down the functioning of the murdering body.

7) When engaging in the above six activities, strike hard and fast and retreat in anonymity. Select another location, strike again hard and fast and quickly retreat in anonymity. Engage only in actions where you will be victorious. Do not be concerned with alienating the mainstream sectors of the movement – that mainstream has NEVER stopped a U.S. military activity or war. Do not get caught. DO NOT GET CAUGHT. Do not get sent to jail. Stay alert, keep active, and keep fighting. Remember, an action is only good (especially at this juncture in U.S. society) if it will serve to severely disrupt the political system of the country, its economy, and the corporate interests that drive this society.

[Heathen]

Completely disgusting outlook IMHO.

[kyleb]

sometimes people get confused and scared and they wind up supporting hateful and destructive things. i don't like to see it and i think we should work to avoid such things, but i do have to point out that many of you commenting on this are a bunch of pots calling the kettle black.

[epicstruggle]

not sure how I am a pot. I have not joined a demonstration that has destroyed property. I have supported a war that wants to liberate the people of Iraq. Most of that support comes from talking to people, donating money, food to charities that send packages to our military, and by post in forums. Not sure how that makes me a pot, please explain.

later,

[kyleb]

because the methods you support also involve things like violence toward others, trespassing, and the destruction of private property. i understand that you belive it is for a good cause, but i hope you might understand that so do the protestors who do the same things; so you are both in the same boat from where i sit.

[epicstruggle]

part of saddams surrender during the gulf war was that he would do certain things. He did not do those things. Now we take steps to make sure he doesnt do anything other than lie still 6 feet underground.

later,

[Joe DeFuria]

Originally Posted by kyleb

because the methods you support also involve things like violence toward others, trespassing, and the destruction of private property.

The difference is, we believe that things like "violence toward others, trespassing, and destruction of private property" as you put it can be a valid and justified means of achieving an end.

On the other hand, some of these "peace protestors" who claim that such things are unacceptable, "only make things worse", etc., use the same means themselves to try and reach an end.

In other words, one set of folks is being completely hypocritical.

i understand that you belive it is for a good cause, but i hope you might understand that so do the protestors who do the same things;

We understand that. It's just that when the "cause" is "No violence!", and to promote your cause you, well, are violent....

[pax]

Hhhe Ghandi advocated civil disobedience that "obstructed people movements\freedoms" and partook in such protests. There are diff levels of protests the probs are that the handful of violent protesters provoke a response from police on all the protesters. No one can gurarantee everyone will behave but police should go after those who dont behave and leave the regular protesters alone. Ther have been reports of unknown peoples joining in protests at the last minute who are very violent... sabotage?

[Heathen]

that guy is promoting Terrorism against his own country, how you can anything positive in that Kyleb is beyond me, let alone try and bring what our troops are doing down to that level.

So far the southern Shi'aa are literally staging welcome parties for the UK/US troops.

Also take a look at the Arab world, not exactly significant opposition from them is there? Ever considered they would be welcome to see the back of Saddam as well?

[Heathen]

Ther have been reports of unknown peoples joining in protests at the last minute who are very violent... sabotage?

Rent-a-mobs, we get them quite a lot over here.

[epicstruggle]

If the peace protesters were not behind the destruction, then they should take more care where and when they protest. They should own up for any problems. And there were about 1000 protesters arrested, so i guess thats alot a sizable percentage of the san fran. protest.

later,

[kyleb]

Originally Posted by Joe DeFuria

We understand that. It's just that when the "cause" is "No violence!", and to promote your cause you, well, are violent....

yes, i know and note that and i do not support such things by any means.

Heathen, it seems you missunderstood what i said as well.

[Joe DeFuria]

Originally Posted by kyleb

yes, i know and note that and i do not support such things by any means.

Yes, and we know this.

That doesn't exaplain callus us "pots" (hypocritical). You are saying you don't agree with us. Entirely different things.

[Heathen]

Heathen, it seems you missunderstood what i said as well.

Maybe you should choose you words with more care.

I can understand why the protestors are protesting (they disagree with the war - I do have fun hurling verbal abuse at them on the way to work) but when somebody starts promoting terrorism in public I knida get a bit het up (Had a mate killed in NI by a so called 'peace protestor'). To me it sounded like you were making an apology for him.[/quote]

[Sharkfood]

Anyone that has tried to get through Market street in the 'city will know these people are terrorists.. pure and simple.

There need to be more piers and holding facilities available to round up these whackos as they are taunting and damaging cars as they pass by as well as parked cars on the streets.

This isn't a protest- it's gang warfare terrorism by extremists. They are proving themselves to be no better than the terrorists they defend, which now shows clear their belief system and derivation therein.

[kyleb]

well i choose my words with as much care as i feel is needed to express my point, but i am not a psychic so i cannot help but to be at least occasionally misunderstood. anyway, i was merely pointing out what i see as the cause of such things. assuming your friend was not a clear and direct threat to the life of the one who killed him, i belive an equal fate would be fair punishment for the alleged "peace protestor." i am not a take sides kind of guy so i don't make apologies for people, i just call it how i see it.


oh and Joe, this goes back to the difference between you and i as to how we value details when compared to principles; and the difference in matters of our opinions that come from that. i would go on to explain myself but i am afraid that it would be futile so i hope you might be willing to let it go with the understanding that it is how i feel, as i understand that you belive i am wrong.