[Ailuros]

How can anyone be certain nowadays with all the misguidance that occurs prior to launches? From all the guesses I'd make I'd say that the 512bit one would be the less likely, but don't put your money on it either cause I really don't know.

[R300King!]

Is the G80 maxing out its bandwidth right now or no? If so, in which tests or games?

Also, the G80 is capable of GDDR4 too, so when it does come out, it will increase its bandwidth further.

I personally think ATI-AMD(DAAMIT) should be releasing something right now as in terms of performance of their upcoming R600. All this does is let Nvidia sell boatloads of them to people who are "looking out" for something on the horizon. If the waters are a dead calm then of course the decision becomes more clear to get the G80 now. If we saw the R600 beats the G80 by even 10~20%, I think many people will wait to purchase.

Of course, this could mean DAAMIT doesn't have the goods to beats the mighty G80 and so better left quiet. If they are having clockspeed problems(as I've heard on the boards) then maybe it's quite possible this is the cause of the delay and the lack of any info on performance whatsoever. If that's the case then....

[Shtal]

The question been raise about 384bit mem vs. 512bit mem.

For example ATI X1900XTX bandwidth vs. X1950XTX bandwidth you only see small margin between two of them. It could be two reasons.
A. games right now don't take advantage of X1950XTX bandwidth.
-OR-
B. You need more powerful hungry GPU to utilize/take advantage with more bandwidth memory.

I just don't see what R600 will do with 512bit memory running 2GHz+ GDDR4.

[nAo]

It seems to me that making an efficient use of GDDR4 memory is harder wrt GDDR3.
Things get probably more interesting when the amoung of data moved per pixel increases (FP64, FP12, AA, etc..)

[Ailuros]

Originally Posted by Shtal

The question been raise about 384bit mem vs. 512bit mem.

For example ATI X1900XTX bandwidth vs. X1950XTX bandwidth you only see small margin between two of them. It could be two reasons.
A. games right now don't take advantage of X1950XTX bandwidth.
-OR-
B. You need more powerful hungry GPU to utilize/take advantage with more bandwidth memory.

I just don't see what R600 will do with 512bit memory running 2GHz+ GDDR4.

I wouldn't judge things that much considering bandwidth and it's effiency on the R580+ in comparison to possibilities on R600.

[ChrisRay]

Originally Posted by R300King!

Is the G80 maxing out its bandwidth right now or no? If so, in which tests or games?

Also, the G80 is capable of GDDR4 too, so when it does come out, it will increase its bandwidth further.

I personally think ATI-AMD(DAAMIT) should be releasing something right now as in terms of performance of their upcoming R600. All this does is let Nvidia sell boatloads of them to people who are "looking out" for something on the horizon. If the waters are a dead calm then of course the decision becomes more clear to get the G80 now. If we saw the R600 beats the G80 by even 10~20%, I think many people will wait to purchase.

Of course, this could mean DAAMIT doesn't have the goods to beats the mighty G80 and so better left quiet. If they are having clockspeed problems(as I've heard on the boards) then maybe it's quite possible this is the cause of the delay and the lack of any info on performance whatsoever. If that's the case then....

From what I have seen from people overclocking their 8800GTS, They dont seem to get much from overclocking the bandwith, ((marginal performance gains compared to core overclocking)) Even with less bandwith than an 8800GTX a 620 Mhz core GTS can give an 8800GTX at stock a run for its money and often outperform it. So its really hard to say just how much the extra bandwith is benefiting the Geforce 8800GTX.

[Ailuros]

Originally Posted by R300King!

Is the G80 maxing out its bandwidth right now or no? If so, in which tests or games?

Try 8x multisampling at it's highest resolution.

I personally think ATI-AMD(DAAMIT) should be releasing something right now as in terms of performance of their upcoming R600. All this does is let Nvidia sell boatloads of them to people who are "looking out" for something on the horizon. If the waters are a dead calm then of course the decision becomes more clear to get the G80 now. If we saw the R600 beats the G80 by even 10~20%, I think many people will wait to purchase.

And a paper launch would be a good idea at this point when it's projected release according to my understanding will take place in Q1 07? Needless to say that without having anything final yet it's way too risky to leak any performance numbers out. Last but not least why warn the competition about what's about to come? To give them even more ammunition for their upcoming G8x refresh?

Of course, this could mean DAAMIT doesn't have the goods to beats the mighty G80 and so better left quiet. If they are having clockspeed problems(as I've heard on the boards) then maybe it's quite possible this is the cause of the delay and the lack of any info on performance whatsoever. If that's the case then....

Some say that silence is gold and it applies in more than one cases; consider the above there might be a different perspective.

[ChrisRay]

Ailuros does bring up a good point with 4xAA being single cycle now through the ROPS. Bandwith will be less of a concern. But 8xQ will definately have much higher bandwith bottlenecks.

[Jawed]

Originally Posted by nAo

It seems to me that making an efficient use of GDDR4 memory is harder wrt GDDR3.
Things get probably more interesting when the amoung of data moved per pixel increases (FP64, FP12, AA, etc..)

R5xx can access GDDR3 as 8x32 - as opposed to traditional 4x64. With GDDR4 the burst length doubles, doesn't it? It seems to me that the combination of R5xx and GDDR4 results in access patterns that are similar to 4x64 GDDR3 GPUs.

So, what happens to a GPU that accesses GDDR3 as Nx64 when it's faced with GDDR4's double-length burst?

Jawed

[nAo]

Originally Posted by Jawed

So, what happens to a GPU that accesses GDDR3 as Nx64 when it's faced with GDDR4's double-length burst?

Dunno, but will see that soon. btw..what happens when you goe from 256 to 512 data bus..you have 16 32bit wide channels or 8 64bit wide channels?

[Jawed]

Originally Posted by nAo

Dunno, but will see that soon. btw..what happens when you goe from 256 to 512 data bus..you have 16 32bit wide channels or 8 64bit wide channels?

Presuming that the "narrowness", 32-bit, was a key goal of ATI's MC design, and with ATI being the "lead architect" for GDDR4, I think it's reasonable to pin my hopes on it being 16x32...

Jawed

[dnavas]

How do we lay out this board? If you take something like http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/nvid...-naked-big.jpg where are the other four chips going to go?

[Jawed]

On the back. They run cool so won't need substantial (any?) heatsinking.

Jawed

[no-X]

e.g. like this?

[Jawed]

Precisely, 1GB.

The difference being that's implemented as 2 chips per "32-bit channel".

Jawed

[dnavas]

Good point -- they do seem to have done that before.

[flopper]

I start to wonder about ATI/AMD.
Now we seen the 8800gtx crush and are crushing anything on the market due to the new gen.

Its silent from ATI, either due to we know we will beat them down (8800gtx) by a good margin and being ready for the G81 refresh.
or simply,
its the same or similiar in numbers and the deciding factor will be how the cards will make DX10 shine or not.

However interesting the DX9 numbers are and how good they also are, the Dx10 will be the gameplay level if its much better/efficent and look better and then the cards got to run the games at DX10 which then isnt avaible with any numbers to display what the cards do there.
I play mostly BF2142 and BF2 and some MMOG online which is my main playarena.
So as of now, my x1950xtx just runs those smooth and great at 1600x1200.

However, if I want to get Vista, and have DX10 then I would like to know what card to get since that are more interesting then todays massive boost in DX9.

3Dmark in all glory, but frames and eyecandy is what are useful for me. Even though I like the tech behind and also read such forums as this, which btw is great high level of technical lingo the end is that what does the card produce in real gameplay?

That is why I would like to see ATI/AMD produce such stuff when time is due.
DX10 is the name of the game next year. However, DX9 still be the main arena.
Vista will set a new standard for gamers or my guess it will flop big time.

[BrynS]

Uttar's concise transcript of NV's Q3 CC suggests that NV know that R600 will be a wee bit portly. EDIT: As per Uttar's clarification, Jen-Hsun's comment doesn't necessairly imply specific knowledge of R600 die size.

Originally Posted by NVIDIA Q3 Conference Call

[...]
Q: Question on die size. G80 die size looks much bigger, losing the small die size advantage? Gross margins?
A: Second question first. This time around, the competition has an infinitely large die size. The die size is higher, but the ASPs are also higher.
[...]

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Originally Posted by BrynS

Uttar's concise transcript of NV's Q3 CC suggests that NV know that R600 will be a wee bit portly.

Apparently that's just a weak joke because R600 is MIA, hence "infinitely large". Don't read too much into it. Probably just a way for Jen-sun to divert the question on G80 margins given it's large die size.

[Geeforcer]

Originally Posted by BrynS

Uttar's concise transcript of NV's Q3 CC suggests that NV know that R600 will be a wee bit portly. EDIT: As per Uttar's clarification, Jen-Hsun's comment doesn't necessairly imply specific knowledge of R600 die size.

No, the exchange went like this:

Analyst: "Before your had a die-size advantage, but no longer with next generation... what gives?"
Jen: "Well, competitor's next-gen product is not even out - so you can't really say who has die size advantage. Right now, their die size is infinitely large"

Translation: Let’s see how big R600 is before we start talking about die size advantage.

[Ailuros]

...and I thought that size matters after all :blush:

[SugarCoat]

Originally Posted by Bjorn

From what i've seen in the reviews so far, the 8800 definitely has better IQ (AF f.e) then what ATI (AMD) has right now. And they also support 8X MSAA + the different CSAA modes. On the other hand, Ati has had their 6X MSAA for ages so i'd be rather surprised if they didn't do something better for this generation.

I agree nVidia has better AA again, which isnt abnormal, their AA is usually quite good anyway, but from most of the screenshots i've seen, especially in Oblivion levels where theres alot of stones on a walkway, IQ = pretty much identicle short of whipping out the magnifying glass, and both even have mipmap issues in the same sections where you can see it change from one level to the next. Perhaps its a title thing.

[Mark]

Assuming GDDR4 @ 1.4GHz on a 256bit bus, that gives you 89.6GB/s bandwidth... on a 512bit bus it gives you 179.2GB/s... the 8800 GTX has 86.9GB/s.

I'm thinking ATI will go with the design that makes the R600 competitive, not the one that makes it competitive+uber-expensive to produce.

[Arun]

Originally Posted by Ratchet

Assuming GDDR4 @ 1.4GHz on a 256bit bus, that gives you 89.6GB/s bandwidth... on a 512bit bus it gives you 179.2GB/s... the 8800 GTX has 86.9GB/s.

I'm thinking ATI will go with the design that makes the R600 competitive, not the one that makes it competitive+uber-expensive to produce.

Words of wisdom. Someone give this man a cookie...!


Uttar

[Moloch]

Originally Posted by flopper

I start to wonder about ATI/AMD.
Now we seen the 8800gtx crush and are crushing anything on the market due to the new gen.

Its silent from ATI, either due to we know we will beat them down (8800gtx) by a good margin and being ready for the G81 refresh.
or simply,
its the same or similiar in numbers and the deciding factor will be how the cards will make DX10 shine or not.

However interesting the DX9 numbers are and how good they also are, the Dx10 will be the gameplay level if its much better/efficent and look better and then the cards got to run the games at DX10 which then isnt avaible with any numbers to display what the cards do there.
I play mostly BF2142 and BF2 and some MMOG online which is my main playarena.
So as of now, my x1950xtx just runs those smooth and great at 1600x1200.

However, if I want to get Vista, and have DX10 then I would like to know what card to get since that are more interesting then todays massive boost in DX9.

3Dmark in all glory, but frames and eyecandy is what are useful for me. Even though I like the tech behind and also read such forums as this, which btw is great high level of technical lingo the end is that what does the card produce in real gameplay?

That is why I would like to see ATI/AMD produce such stuff when time is due.
DX10 is the name of the game next year. However, DX9 still be the main arena.
Vista will set a new standard for gamers or my guess it will flop big time.

Perhaps the silence is the calm before the storm