[TheChefO]

Originally Posted by Mefisutoferesu

... well, yeah, that's why they like the PS3 so much. Less hinderence, which kinda helps my point there.

You're missing the point. The hinderance has NOTHING to do with hardware. it has to do with sales and customer desire. In 2008 no customer will desire ps2 quality games.

[Mefisutoferesu]

Originally Posted by scooby_dooby

No you completely misunderstood my post. I'm saying current gen sales are stagnating, and overall install base is not a good indicator for software sales, as seen by X360 dominating the tops of the charts month after month despite having at best 2% of the install base of PS2.

Simply put SE will make much more money by releasing on PS3 than PS2 because current generation sales are dying, especially when you consider their probable release date of 2008.

Again, you're forming ficitious truths through correlation rather than causation. You have nothing that clearly explains why current gen sales are stagnating. Nor any evidence that suggests that the trend would effect FF's sales as well. Also, to say that install base isn't a good indictator is kinda... look install base marks potential and probabliity. SE has to sell to only 7% of the PS2 install base to make their usual 7 mil. With a largew percentage of that in Japan and the western "jgamer" well represented on the PS2 it seems statisically that they would be able to make that &% easier than a 70% install base on a console where the user base is mostly western and, at least seemingly, far less representative of western gamers who play Jp games. In other words, you're fooling yourself into thinking that since 360 games are doing better in sales than PS2 that obviously the market segement that repsonds to FF is on 360. You're correlating thing that really have nothing to do with eachother and seeing it as a cause. Not the most eloquently put, but you get it right?

Originally Posted by TheChefO

You're missing the point. The hinderance has NOTHING to do with hardware. it has to do with sales and customer desire. In 2008 no customer will desire ps2 quality games.

When was FFXIII confirmed for 2008? Also, you have no PROOF of this. Find me evidence, non-anecdotal, that if FF was going to come out on PS2 it wouldn't sell as well. It's just your opinion that you're arguing as fact.

[TheChefO]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

The primary sales of FF have always been in Japan, where there is zip XB360 installed base. I don't think there's much precedence for believing XB360 owners' taste care much for JRPG either. The XBox platform is strong in racers and shooters and western games, which suggests the owners want that sort of game. If they wanted JRPGs, wouldn't they have bought a PS2 instead? I guess sales for FFXI on XB360 would give an indicator of how well the FF franchise might do. But it's not enough to say 'there's more of this console, hence you'll sell more'. The consideration is which platform has the more potential buyers for your game, which isn't always the platform with the most units (until you get way out ahead). On PS3 Squenix are pretty much guarenteed about as many million unit sales in Japan as there are PS3s sold there by the game's launch (assuming not a prolonged release). Maybe 2-3 million? Overall they'd need a high percentage of XB360 owners to buy into it to equal sales, with no PS like certainty that those owners want it.

I also don't beleive if a new FF was launched on PS2, it would go overlooked because the 'platform is dying'. The reason to move on isn't a numbers game or money game, but because they want to create better products! They want to try new stuff, and make more immersive experiences. You even get that explanation from the interview. FFXIII was being developed for PS2, and after producing the demo for PS3, they didn't want to go back. If they hadn't have produced that demo, FFXIII would have still been released on PS2 and sold millions (unless released really really late), costing a lot less for Squenix to produce. There's no way they'll make as much money from FFXIII on PS3 as they would PS2.

Agreed but you're assuming this is a regular game/franchise with this sales analogy. If MS announced this game as exclusive on 360 what do you think would happen to the 360 userbase in Japan? In light of the recently announced price and subsequent shock even in Japan, they would buy 360's in droves. This is one of the few examples of the carriage before the horse. This game will create its own userbase. In otherwords whereverthis game goes the gamers will follow.

Onto their reasoning. All of the above arguments say what exactly against the benefits of making this game multiplat?

[TheChefO]

Originally Posted by Mefisutoferesu

Again, you're forming ficitious truths through correlation rather than causation. You have nothing that clearly explains why current gen sales are stagnating. Nor any evidence that suggests that the trend would effect FF's sales as well. Also, to say that install base isn't a good indictator is kinda... look install base marks potential and probabliity. SE has to sell to only 7% of the PS2 install base to make their usual 7 mil. With a largew percentage of that in Japan and the western "jgamer" well represented on the PS2 it seems statisically that they would be able to make that &% easier than a 70% install base on a console where the user base is mostly western and, at least seemingly, far less representative of western gamers who play Jp games. In other words, you're fooling yourself into thinking that since 360 games are doing better in sales than PS2 that obviously the market segement that repsonds to FF is on 360. You're correlating thing that really have nothing to do with eachother and seeing it as a cause. Not the most eloquently put, but you get it right?

well in that case why do they even make an english version of this game if western gamers aren't interested?

[scooby_dooby]

Originally Posted by Mefisutoferesu

Why is it so hard to take what a developer says at face value? Explain to me, why you don't believe them with EVIDENCE. Otherwise, they like the PS3 hardware. Live with it.

Because it's a ridiculous statement. You're telling me the producers of the game threw millions of dollars in revenues down the toilet because their development team liked the hardware so much?

In the world of business that's not how it works, you think producers care how much 'fun' their dev team is having? It's ruled by the almighty dollar, and if SE thought they could make more money by releasing it on PS2 then that's what they would do.

[scificube]

Originally Posted by TheChefO

well in that case why do they even make an english version of this game if western gamers aren't interested?

Because western gamers on PS2 are interested?

[Mefisutoferesu]

Originally Posted by TheChefO

well in that case why do they even make an english version of this game if western gamers aren't interested?

OMG, are you PURPOSELY being obtuse? You sit there agree with shifty and then make grossly over generalized what I said as to make your counter point?

With a large percentage of that in Japan and the western "jgamer" well represented on the PS2 it seems statisically that they would be able to make that &% easier than a 70% install base on a console where the user base is mostly western and, at least seemingly, far less representative of western gamers who play Jp games.

I never said western gamers weren't interested. In fact, as I said, I basically said the same thing shifty said.

Originally Posted by Shifty

I don't think there's much precedence for believing XB360 owners' taste care much for JRPG either. The XBox platform is strong in racers and shooters and western games, which suggests the owners want that sort of game. If they wanted JRPGs, wouldn't they have bought a PS2 instead?

[scificube]

Originally Posted by scooby_dooby

Because it's a ridiculous statement. You're telling me the producers of the game threw millions of dollars in revenues down the toilet because their development team liked the hardware so much?

In the world of business that's not how it works, you think producers care how much 'fun' their dev team is having? It's ruled by the almighty dollar, and if SE thought they could make more money by releasing it on PS2 then that's what they would do.

The marketing teams and other higher ups could like it just the same for "HD" appeal, "establishing a PS3 presence", "Getting a return of all the time and money spent on the FFIV demo for PS3" etc.

Money runs the show...but the quickest/easiest route is not always taken to it if there are other benefits to not doing so immediately that could translate into higher revenues later on down the line.

[Mefisutoferesu]

Originally Posted by scooby_dooby

Because it's a ridiculous statement. You're telling me the producers of the game threw millions of dollars in revenues down the toilet because their development team liked the hardware so much?

In the world of business that's not how it works, you think producers care how much 'fun' their dev team is having? It's ruled by the almighty dollar, and if SE thought they could make more money by releasing it on PS2 then that's what they would do.

Yeah, that's fairly reasonable statement, buuuut this is Kitase's dev team we're talking about. These guys are sorta the cornerstone of modern numbered FFs. There's a certain give and take to keep both sides happy. The bean counters were probably none too happy about it, but maybe they negotiated a way around making it profitable in the long run, sometimes even bean counters can show a little farsightedness.

Hypothetically, the deal could have been something along the lines of "fine we'll move it to the PS3, BUT we get spin offs". Certainly would explain how Nomura's team came into making versus instead of KH3 or just a break. FFXIII was in development while KH2 was still being worked on... wouldn't have made much sense for Nomura's team to be on versus, BUT maybe with the shake/change up who knows. It's hypothetical, but the point is neither you nor I know what wacky highjinks are going on behind the scenes, so cut these guys some slack. Maybe, it seems ridiculous because we're missing huge pieces of the puzzle. I think we should just assume they are telling the truth until a tangible piece of evidence says otherwise.

[Bobbler]

Originally Posted by TheChefO

Check the latest sales data for 360 - They're coming in at 5.5million right now. Look at historical sales data for Christmas and you'll see they will have difficulty in not hitting 10million by the end of the year.

I think you need to look at the actual sales charts again. They're around 3 million worldwide at the moment. Those targets set by MS are for shipping -- they've never been talking about sales.

It is at roughly 1.8 million sold in the US now -- Europe is around 1 million and the rest is around 200-250k (give or take).

Around the christmas season you can expect about 1.5million sold in NA -- Europe might see a million in nov/dec as well, and Japan will probably be another 20k that month if they're lucky. The next 3 months isn't going to account for ~5 million (these are typically slow months also).

[Bad_Boy]

Hate to break up this wonderful discussion, but to my attention, we seem to have some new (but small) screenshots.
FFXIII: http://www.famitsu.com/game/coming/2...54802,0,0.html

FFvsXIII: http://www.famitsu.com/game/coming/2...54811,0,0.html
thx to someone over at GAF for the links.

I think this is one of those games id buy just to see the pretty graphics at work alone.

[Bobbler]

Originally Posted by Bad_Boy

Hate to break up this wonderful discussion, but to my attention, we seem to have some new (but small) screenshots.
FFXIII: http://www.famitsu.com/game/coming/2...54802,0,0.html

FFvsXIII: http://www.famitsu.com/game/coming/2...54811,0,0.html
thx to someone over at GAF for the links.

I think this is one of those games id buy just to see the pretty graphics at work alone.

This is going to be exciting to see when it comes out -- looks rather stunning.

[Mefisutoferesu]

[Moderated : Magazine Scan]



If that's in battle blizzaga... ... you know when you start laughing because you're really really happy? Yeah... need to control that.

That'd be pretty awesome if they do what I think they're doing. Namely using spells/attacks to create tactical set ups. Like those weak to blizzard might get frozen in ice, giving you another opportunity to attack or the built up ice might form a sort of shield seperating you from some of the enemies after the attack. I've really been hoping they'll extend the FFX-2 engine with this sort of stuff. Strategy, beauty, and speed all in one neat package.

Now to read!

[scooby_dooby]

Originally Posted by Bobbler

It is at roughly 1.8 million sold in the US now -- Europe is around 1 million and the rest is around 200-250k (give or take).

Where are you coming up with the numbers for EU and the rest of the world? Seem a little out of whack to me, if US is tracking at 1.8 then canada surely must be around 180k. Then there's the other 29 countries around the world. I think 250k is wayyy low.

Anyways, feel free to PM me your sources, as this is totally off-topic.

[liverkick]

Originally Posted by Mefisutoferesu

That'd be pretty awesome if they do what I think they're doing. Namely using spells/attacks to create tactical set ups. Like those weak to blizzard might get frozen in ice, giving you another opportunity to attack or the built up ice might form a sort of shield seperating you from some of the enemies after the attack. I've really been hoping they'll extend the FFX-2 engine with this sort of stuff. Strategy, beauty, and speed all in one neat package.

I hope you're on to something there. In fact didnt the dev team mention something about the battle system having some FFX-2 influences?

edited- my fault. even foreign mags eh?

[StefanS]

Originally Posted by liverkick

Full scan here (credit to yoshaw at e-mpire forum)

Scans are not allowed on these fora!!!

[BenSkywalker]

Originally Posted by TheChefO

I was originally replying to Benskywalker as he drew an analogy to the cartridge days and the "need" for this storage ratio. But you are correct, this is vering off-topic.

Ontopic - as has been said before, this decision to put FF on ps3 only, is 100% political - not technical.

It all fits together. You are either advocating redundancy being utilized in an extreme fashion or surrendering next gen assets. Those are the choices you have if you are dealing with anything but an extremely linear title for the type we are talking about. Which huge compromise should they make so there won't be a technical reason for them not to do it?

As far as next gen goes the same issue is going to apply then. If your storage medium isn't a couple orders of magnitude greater then your available RAM then you are going to be looking at either content tailored well below the limitations of your systems capabilities or you are going to be facing a lot of redundancy in your assets. If you don't agree- please point out what other options there are. I would assume that the next gen platforms will be using a next gen optical medium. As far as quoting Wikipedia for pricing- would you like me to rewrite one of their articles talking about DVD9 costs skyrocketing to greater then $5K per disk? It only takes a few minutes.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by TheChefO

Onto their reasoning. All of the above arguments say what exactly against the benefits of making this game multiplat?

You can say that about pretty much every game. FF has always been exclusive, like quite a few third party games. I don't know the reasoning behind it but SE obviously have theirs. Could be they liked working with the hardware. Could be they are very happy with the relationship with Sony. Could be the demo for E3 05 gave them a surprising leg-up on development. Could be something totally different. I don't think the reason was an HD drive, and I don't think the article was even talking about that as Arwin has pointed out. If instead of this thread being titled "SE explains why FFXIII is PS3 exclusive - DVD9 not enough" it was entitled "SE explains why FFXIII is dropped from PS2 in favour of PS3", it'd have been truer to the interview and been a lot shorter.