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Old 23-Mar-2006, 12:48   #1
micky
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Default Gothic 2 or Morrowind?

Easy question...

Also why????
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Old 23-Mar-2006, 14:40   #2
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gothic2 definately.

there is an 'x' factor still. (oblivion cured the ES series of theisfactor though)

a few known issues:

soundtrack: gothic is much more subdued and nonintrusive on your consiousness, and pleasant throughout, even with repeating. transitions were seamless. morrowind soundtrack annoyed me after awhile. also morrowind had a cacaphoney of 'wildlife' sounds. high pitched and piercing (music was more piercing too). gothic2 (and oblivion do not)...much more natural. the music should be pleasant, but subdued (like a funeral home ambience) IMO.

balance issues. i sucked in morrowind (perhaps to my poor choices? i think it was my first hack and slash RPG) for a much longer time than in gothic2 (and now oblivion). gothic2 had fewer choices perhaps (easier to get it right sooner?), and with oblivion i know to focus on my favorite activity as skill rather than try to be everything at once?

also morrowind had a 'repetitive' problem after a while. i didn't have nearly that sense in gothic2 or oblivion (so far). but im not sure why. i just didn't get bored.
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Old 23-Mar-2006, 15:26   #3
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Easy: Gothic 2!

Its a much more focused experience than Morrowind, without forcing you down a tight linear path or restricting your freedom; there's always loads of stuff to do, but you never get lost; the factions add real replayability and different perspectives to the gameplay; the characters have personality and the world feels way less generic (real steep cliffs, overhangs and caves instead of heightmapped hills with some boulders slapped on top to make it look more like a mountain).

There are plenty of superficial weknesses to the game (mostly the controls and the somewhat awkward difficulty balancing), but if you look beyond those, the Gothic games are the best thing to happen to RPGs since Ultima 7.

Morrowind isn't shabby either. I'm a TES fan since Arena and I've spent many hours immersed in Morrowind. The freedom and choices it offers are awesome, as were the visuals for the time (animations sucked though). Its just too easy to loose track and motivation takes a huge plunge once you've spent a dozen or so hours in the game IMO.
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Old 24-Mar-2006, 00:18   #4
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Gothic 1.

Trust me, don't play Gothic 2 before finishing Gothic 1 first.

(from the sole fact you are asking for recomendation for the Gohic vs Morrowind, I'm deducting you must have never played *any* Gothic game )

You will thank me later. It has nothing to do with game difficulty, it's about story and immesion you might miss otherwise.
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Old 24-Mar-2006, 05:16   #5
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Gothic 2. Morrowind just isn't a particularly good game.

Morrowind is more like a sandbox. You have a flexible character system, you have game world with little restrictions and you can do whatever you want... that appeals to some people. Problem is that Morrowind fails as a GAME. At some point, the lack of focus makes the game mechanics, the level of difficulty and basically the whole concept just fall apart. There are huge imbalances in the game mechanics, the character system isn't anywhere as great in reality as it looks on paper (I found it rather tedious). The storyline is little more than a string of loosely connected quests and it fails horribly at creating any sort of suspense or even keeping the player interested in it.

Gothic 2 on the other hand just works. You still have a large game world with tons of things to do aside from following the main quest line but the game does a good job at keeping you on track. Gothic 2 is also much more immersive. NPCs have a schedule, they aren't just generic placeholders like in Morrowind. The game world in Gothic 2 is much more interesting than Morrowind's fugly grey/brown abomination. Gothic 2 is a great CRPG, Morrowind is an overrated piece of shit.
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Old 24-Mar-2006, 08:42   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L233
...Morrowind is an overrated piece of shit.
sums it up nicely...
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Old 24-Mar-2006, 10:07   #7
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Well, there's not much to add to what Gollum and L233 said...
I just want to emphasize that the world design in Gothic is still unmatched IMO (can't speak for Oblivion though, as I haven't played it yet.).
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Old 24-Mar-2006, 15:41   #8
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i just hope gothic3 (dual core and physx compatible i hear) is as good as oblivion. im fairly confident it will be...or dare i say, even better? (physx may just be the 'it' factor).

g3 isn't supposed to be a dx10 game is it? still slated for fall?
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Old 25-Mar-2006, 00:54   #9
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'Gothic 2' is more structured and focused, but has a very generic world, consisting almost entirely of standard D&D characters and environments. 'Morrowind' is less focused, has more bugs and glitches and yet creates a more convincing alternate reality. 'Morrowind' reaches for the stars and fails, 'Gothic 2' achieves what it sets out to do, but is far less ambitous and imaginative.
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Old 25-Mar-2006, 08:58   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplo
'Gothic 2' is more structured and focused, but has a very generic world, consisting almost entirely of standard D&D characters and environments. 'Morrowind' is less focused, has more bugs and glitches and yet creates a more convincing alternate reality. 'Morrowind' reaches for the stars and fails, 'Gothic 2' achieves what it sets out to do, but is far less ambitous and imaginative.
I wouldn't call Gothic "generic D&D" because it's not classical "high fantasy" from a stylistic point of view. Sure, there's magic and stuff but that's where it ends. You don't really have the usual fantasy races, the game is very human-centric. The style is much more "realistic medival" and down-to-earth than most fantasy RPGs.

Morrowind on the other hand is exactly the generic over-the-top D&D high fantasy claptrap and renaming Dark Elves to "Dunmer" doesn't change that. It's Elves and fantasy races just fucking everywhere. Morrowind comes across like the effort of a 12-year old who has only know D&D and tries to create something "new" by shuffling around ancient high fantasy concepts and elements and slapping a few new names unto them. I've done more creative shit as the game master of my RPG group when I was 14 and I'm not a particularly creative person.

I disagree that Morrowind creates a "more convincing alternate reality". You can't do that with such a bland, boring, ugly word and certainly not with generic NPCs who are little more than the vessels for masses of hyperlinked text.

Morrwind didn't "reach for the stars" and fail, Morrowind built one of these cardboard Western towns which created the illusion for long enough to make idiots and the cretins of the game media believe that they had something great at their hands, at least until their reviews were published. In that regard, Morrowind didn't fail, it was a huge success.

Maybe Oblivion is the Jesus of CRPGs with a reacharound. It would be the first time Bethesda ever made an even half-decent game. It will probably swamp the player with shitloads of stuff to do and all the morons will go "OMGz teh freedom!!!1" . And like in Morrwind, where the core of fanbois never made it past Vivec and never saw the whole game concept come crashing down, the problems will only become apparent AFTER all the 90+% reviews have been written.

Last edited by L233; 25-Mar-2006 at 14:58.
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Old 25-Mar-2006, 10:44   #11
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I sense much hate in you...
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Old 25-Mar-2006, 16:16   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L233
I wouldn't call Gothic "generic D&D" because it's not classical "high fantasy" from a stylistic point of view.
It's also a German made game, which I'm sure has nothing to do with your over-the-top bias.
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Old 25-Mar-2006, 17:07   #13
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Well, his rant might be a bit over the top, but he does have a point.

The only thing that struck me as somewhat generic in Gothic 1/2 were the orcs, other than that I liked it so much because much of the world was so refreshingly different from most standard fantasy RPGs.
Morrowind on the other hand had me frequently thinking of standard high fantasy clich├ęs, wrapped in new names. Sure, at first glance much of the world looks very promising and unconventional, which made the realization that much of it is smoke and mirrors much more disappointing.

Oh, and I don't think you get pot-smoking cultists in standard high fantasy...
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Old 25-Mar-2006, 17:47   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplo
It's also a German made game, which I'm sure has nothing to do with your over-the-top bias.
Not at all. FarCry is German-made and I think the game is overrated. Neocron is another German-made game and I think it's a horrible abomination and should be destroyed. A game is either good or it isn't, national bias has nothing to do with it.

It's really simple - Morrowind sucks and Gothic 2 does not. Besides, calling the Gothic series "generic D&D fantasy" is rather ridiculous and makes me wonder whether you've actually played the game or if you've ever been exposed to classical D&D-style high fantasy. Likewise, presenting Morrowind as an alternative to the standard fantasy fare is a rather sad joke. Gothic has been steering clear of most of the more common fantasy cliches, with the exception of Orcs, so please be honest.

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Old 25-Mar-2006, 20:58   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L233
Gothic has been steering clear of most of the more common fantasy cliches, with the exception of Orcs, so please be honest.
Look, I loved 'Gothic 2' as a game, but you cannot get any more generic than knights, dragons, orcs, wizards, necromancers etc. Just look at the box art below:



Also, your dislike for 'Morrowind' borders on the pathological. I can only imagine your mother hit you over the head with the collectors edition too many times when you were a child.
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Old 25-Mar-2006, 23:07   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diplo
Look, I loved 'Gothic 2' as a game, but you cannot get any more generic than knights, dragons, orcs, wizards, necromancers etc. Just look at the box art below:
But there you have the crux of the problem:
G2 looks generic on the surface - but it is much more.
Morrowind is the exact opposite.
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Old 26-Mar-2006, 00:21   #17
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Yeah, the box art tells the whole story

Magic? Medival weaponry and armour? It's fantasy, after all. Without that stuff, it wouldn't be fantasy.

When we're talking about "generic", we're talking mainly about style and content . High Fantasy with all its cliches can be best described as "tolkienesque".

The TES world is, like so many high fantasy worlds, a cliche filled Tolkien rip-off. Huge epic backstory with an ongoing struggle of good vs evil or order vs chaos over the course of millennia. It's the Silmarillion all over again, or an extremely inept version of it. Oblivion starts with the most dispicable cliche of all - you're the hero of some sort of vision or prophecy. That's high fantasy right there - be as god damn epic as possible, not matter how contrived the result may be. It's this insufferable gigantomania that is a staple of high fantasy and TES is chock full with it. Gothic just doesn't have that. You start a convict who tries to find his way out of a prison and end up as a pawn for a powerful mage. Sure, you'll eventually end up being the hero but you're not declared the messiah right from the start.

And then there is style. I'll just make up a bullshit term and call Gothic's style "low fantasy". "Low fantasy" takes a much more realistic approach to artwork design. Things are modeled closer to medieval European architecure. Everything is a bit smaller, less massive. It's a lot more believable than the high fantasy stuff. You don't have these epic scale, huge cities. You don't have have the massive architecure or the spectacular ruins and neither does the artwork go batshit crazy with the exotic stuff.

Yes, in a way Gothic is more "conventional" as in "closer to reality" but when we're talking about fantasy games, the "OMGz let's make it bigger, shinier and more exotic weeee" high fantasy formula has been done to death. THAT's actually the cliche in the context of games.

The reason why Gothic feels so distinctly different from most other fantasy CRPGs is the less fantastic and more medieval approach. It may not be particularly creative but _not_ being as outlandishly fantastic as humanly possible actually feels fresh in this day and age. We've done the super-epic and the ultra-exotic a million times before.



Last edited by L233; 26-Mar-2006 at 00:32.
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Old 27-Mar-2006, 22:19   #18
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I agree with L233 - Morrowind is stylistically like a single player Everquest. How generic high fantasy RPG can you get? The clothes, armour, weapons - even spells are low key in Gothic 2, as is the architecture - the fact you are a criminal rather than a prophised saviour etc is away from the norm. Plus how can Morrowinds empty world/silent towns be more immersive/beleivable compared to Gothic 2's NPC's working during the day, drinking in the pub in the evening and going to bed at night?

No CRPG has ever felt as real to me as creeping around Gothic 2's main town at night breaking into the rich quarter to steal to order for the thieves guild. Morrowind really failed on that score.
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Old 27-Mar-2006, 23:04   #19
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I have played a lot of games and Gothic II is my all time favorite; the story is so so, but the gameplay is loads of fun and the RPG elements are well implemented. Deus Ex is a distant second, and Morrowind an even more distant third.

But I do agree that, even though both games are somewhat standard fantasy, I think the world of Morrowind is more fleshed out (way beyond a mere Tolkien copy).

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Old 28-Mar-2006, 23:59   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randell
Plus how can Morrowinds empty world/silent towns be more immersive/beleivable compared to Gothic 2's NPC's working during the day, drinking in the pub in the evening and going to bed at night?
..or NPC, who gets up in the morning, and then, before attending the pub, takes a long, laud piss in front of his house?

BEAT THAT, OBLIVION!! LOL

Just wanted to add, that from all 3 Gothic games released so far (G1, G2 and G2+NoR), I consider the pure G2 being the weakest of them. People who skipped G1 and started with G2 have done themselves disfavour. The NoR shows what the G2 was actually intended to be.
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Old 30-Mar-2006, 09:45   #21
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Well, I just have to say that while Morrowind definitely has its issues, what it does do extremely well is offer a huge sandbox to play in, with a number of different factions (each one in and of itself can almost be considered a separate game).

Anyway, I'm just ecstatic about Oblivion. Seems to fix all of the outstanding problems with Morrowind (at least in my mind: I can't guarantee those RPG fans that didn't like Morrowind would enjoy Oblivion, but I love it), as well as offering an even larger world with more interesting content.
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Old 05-Apr-2006, 15:07   #22
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Speaking of tolkienesque fantasy cliches, looks like in the Oblivion you can even meet Sauron himself.

I mean WTF? Do they think we don't go to cinemas?
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Old 05-Apr-2006, 17:00   #23
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Dremora looked like that in Morrowind too, before those movies I believe.
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Old 05-Apr-2006, 17:40   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swaaye
Dremora looked like that in Morrowind too, before those movies I believe.
lol, omg total ripoff! call eastman & laird...
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Old 06-Apr-2006, 02:15   #25
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http://tes.ag.ru/mw/artwork/creatures/cr_dremora.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dremora

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