Beyond3D Forum

rubank · 29-Nov-2002, 20:53

I´ve for some time been looking forward to review and benchmarks on this little baby, since it seems to sport some interesting tech and has a pricetag making it a viable alternative to mainstream cards.

Seeing in another thread that Modulor states he´s got one, and hinting at very good performance even in games, I really wonder why I can´t find any real reviews of the card.

Am I missing something?

It´s not only the Slipstream tech that´s interesting, what about the "highly programmable antialiasing"?

Modulor · 01-Dec-2002, 14:20

I am still working on a review of this card - with main focus on games and slipstream and some pictures of AA on VP760/VP560 in comparison to a Ti4200.This takes time - I can tell you

...
I`ll let you know when its done (maybe end of next week?). But don`t expect a "professional" review with technical,mathematical and logical details: benchmarks,screenshots and my point of view

...

edit:
And it will be in german only

...

martrox · 01-Dec-2002, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modulor

And it will be in german only

...

Well, that sucks.......

Ailuros · 01-Dec-2002, 15:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by martrox

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modulor

And it will be in german only

...

Well, that sucks.......

Doesn't for me :P

Modulor,

Which site are you writing for? If you want I could translate it for you (hopefully it isn't 30 pages long LOL). If yes drop me a PM.

rubank · 01-Dec-2002, 19:16

Good news

I can even live with the german..

Sage · 02-Dec-2002, 02:40

well between my german class in 4th grade, my friend Jan, and google i should be able to understand the review pretty well :P

rubank · 06-Dec-2002, 13:29

..waiting.. 8)

Dave Baumann · 06-Dec-2002, 13:35

I phoned 3Dlabs up ealier this week to see if we can get access to a sample. They still have some reservations about handing tus a board because we use games tests. I can understand that reservation as its not what they are aimed for at the moment, but its a bit of a shame - I don't want B3D to be purely limited to desktop/gaming 3D.

However, they said they would speak to "the powers that be" (i.e. Creative) so you never know...

rubank · 06-Dec-2002, 15:44

Dave,
seeing your good coverage of the P10 they should have no reason to hesitate. And delivering drivers for both OGL and DX why would they mind a little game benching to make a review complete?

Dave Baumann · 06-Dec-2002, 15:54

Well, looking at it from their point of view, their drivers are not optimised for gaming - we know this. The boards will likely look very poor (for gaming) in comparison to equivelent parts, so that could have some potential impact on Professional sales, possibly. However, more importantly the link of 3Dlabs to Creative is there now - people know that Creative are going to bring their own (3Dlabs) cards to the desktop market - if a 3Dlabs workstation board is tested with games and shown in a negative light that may taint peoples impressions prior to a real Creative board appearing with proper gaming drivers.

Whilst I was talking about P9 with them they did mention that "Slipstream" (ugh) is "Currently not enabled in the drivers as they are focusing on the Worstation end". If Slipstream is in P9, but not enabled in the workstation drivers what does that mean...?

Anyway, needless to say I'll be periodically dropping my name in their inbox just so they know we're here!

Modulor · 07-Dec-2002, 22:34

I finished page 15 today - the end is in sight

...
I sold the VP760 at ebay last week and the buyer is waiting. So i`ve to hurry up. Maybe 2 or 3 more days.
Don`t forget: I am a normal working guy with normal spare time, hence I`ve to use the nights too (my eyes look like these ->

). I have to test 4 cards in about 10 games and benchmarks with 5 resolutions and have to put this into the right form and so on...

rubank · 08-Dec-2002, 01:02

Good going, Modulor

Modulor · 11-Dec-2002, 00:52

Done!

http://www.tilebase.de

Sorry for the people out there without DSL/Cable - there are plenty of huge graphics. But every single pic is worth waiting for...
Have fun

Axel

rubank · 11-Dec-2002, 01:26

Wow,
that´s one hell of a review!

Well done, and thanks

PSarge · 11-Dec-2002, 12:17

I'm a little confused about some of the images, particularly the overdraw pictures on http://www.tilebase.de/reviews/VP560/VP560_18.html.

Are those VP760 or VP560? The text seems to suggest their both overlaid on each other, but maybe I've misunderstood the german.

P.S. I like all the Puma pictures

mboeller · 11-Dec-2002, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSarge

I'm a little confused about some of the images, particularly the overdraw pictures on http://www.tilebase.de/reviews/VP560/VP560_18.html.

Are those VP760 or VP560? The text seems to suggest their both overlaid on each other, but maybe I've misunderstood the german.

P.S. I like all the Puma pictures

No correct. Use Your mouse.

Arrow besides the picture = VP 760
Arrow above picture = VP 560

I like the overdraw-picture of village-mark. It shows that the KyroII and the VP 560 work the same way. When the KyroII works best the VP 560 works best too.

[edit]
I don't think that the overdraw-tool really show the overdraw, but the amount of textures used per pixel too. If you look at the pictures then you can see that every texture layer is counted as one additional overdraw. So the tool show too much overdraw, but the trend should be clear. Slipstream clearly reduces the overdraw. I would like to see the KyroII pics for comparison cause then you would see how much overdraw the Slipstream-tech reduces in reality.

Seems village-mark is single textured!

PSarge · 11-Dec-2002, 13:12

Ahh, the mouse over thingy doesn't seem to work on my browser (Mozilla - Linux)

Odd.

Fine on IE though.

Kristof · 11-Dec-2002, 15:06

I am not sure what those images actually show... what do these colors actually show ? There seem to be no block based areas which I find odd since most of these EarlyZ systems are based on, say, 8x8 block areas so I would expect some of the areas to be blocky.

Also the Fortune image confuses me, somehow Villagemark drops to 1 layer but Fortune still sees overdraw rates of over 8... I find that really weird... why would Fortune not be pure 1 layer... whats weirder is that the left area toggles between 1 and 2 layers, but on the right it jumps up... why can the left area be flattened and the right not ?

IMHO what these images show is not really what the card does, the villagemark shot seems to be an ideal result - as can be created, for example, when you do a depth render first and then use early Z and regular Z tests and you only change the color based on Z-passes. This means that even though you still do a hell of a lot of work because the depth render makes Z_test perfect you get these results but they are not indicative of the actual HSR capability.

Anyway what does this mode actually do...

Also the actual final fillrate result is still quite poor, fortunes fillrate capability is still way below the numbers that todays brute force cards can produce. Seems like all this proves is just that the 870 plain sucks at early HSR and that the 560 actually is now trying to do some. The delta you might see could be "EarlyZ" versus "no EarlyZ" rather than true deferring advantages ?

Does anyone know what the true raw fillrate of this card is ?

Althornin · 11-Dec-2002, 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSarge

Ahh, the mouse over thingy doesn't seem to work on my browser (Mozilla - Linux)

Odd.

Fine on IE though.

Works for me in Moz (1.2.1).

Nice review, although the translators mangle the text.

Luminescent · 11-Dec-2002, 21:21

What do you guys think about the VP560?

BTW, how does it perform when anti-aliasing?

Modulor · 12-Dec-2002, 07:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luminescent

...
BTW, how does it perform when anti-aliasing?

Framerate decreases by 50%. I only made 3 benchmarks with AA: RtcW/Q3A and Dungeon Siege (the results are shown in the tables)...

Luminescent · 12-Dec-2002, 13:20

Wow, that is one big hit. I really wish 3D labs would make a set of drivers for real-time 3D performance (a bit too much to ask for, but as a gamer you can dream).

29-Nov-2002, 20:53	#1
rubank Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 147	Any news/reviews on 3DLabs VP560? I´ve for some time been looking forward to review and benchmarks on this little baby, since it seems to sport some interesting tech and has a pricetag making it a viable alternative to mainstream cards. Seeing in another thread that Modulor states he´s got one, and hinting at very good performance even in games, I really wonder why I can´t find any real reviews of the card. Am I missing something? It´s not only the Slipstream tech that´s interesting, what about the "highly programmable antialiasing"?

06-Dec-2002, 13:35	#8
Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh... Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,951	I phoned 3Dlabs up ealier this week to see if we can get access to a sample. They still have some reservations about handing tus a board because we use games tests. I can understand that reservation as its not what they are aimed for at the moment, but its a bit of a shame - I don't want B3D to be purely limited to desktop/gaming 3D. However, they said they would speak to "the powers that be" (i.e. Creative) so you never know... __________________ Expand. Accelerate. Dominate. Tweet Tweet!

06-Dec-2002, 15:54	#10
Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh... Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,951	Well, looking at it from their point of view, their drivers are not optimised for gaming - we know this. The boards will likely look very poor (for gaming) in comparison to equivelent parts, so that could have some potential impact on Professional sales, possibly. However, more importantly the link of 3Dlabs to Creative is there now - people know that Creative are going to bring their own (3Dlabs) cards to the desktop market - if a 3Dlabs workstation board is tested with games and shown in a negative light that may taint peoples impressions prior to a real Creative board appearing with proper gaming drivers. Whilst I was talking about P9 with them they did mention that "Slipstream" (ugh) is "Currently not enabled in the drivers as they are focusing on the Worstation end". If Slipstream is in P9, but not enabled in the workstation drivers what does that mean...? Anyway, needless to say I'll be periodically dropping my name in their inbox just so they know we're here! __________________ Expand. Accelerate. Dominate. Tweet Tweet!

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01-Dec-2002, 14:20	#2
Modulor Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 11	I am still working on a review of this card - with main focus on games and slipstream and some pictures of AA on VP760/VP560 in comparison to a Ti4200.This takes time - I can tell you ... I`ll let you know when its done (maybe end of next week?). But don`t expect a "professional" review with technical,mathematical and logical details: benchmarks,screenshots and my point of view ... edit: And it will be in german only ...

01-Dec-2002, 19:16	#5
rubank Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 147	Good news I can even live with the german..

02-Dec-2002, 02:40	#6
Sage 13 short of a dozen Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Southern Methodist University Posts: 935	well between my german class in 4th grade, my friend Jan, and google i should be able to understand the review pretty well :P

06-Dec-2002, 13:29	#7
rubank Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 147	..waiting.. 8)

06-Dec-2002, 15:44	#9
rubank Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 147	Dave, seeing your good coverage of the P10 they should have no reason to hesitate. And delivering drivers for both OGL and DX why would they mind a little game benching to make a review complete?

07-Dec-2002, 22:34	#11
Modulor Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 11	I finished page 15 today - the end is in sight ... I sold the VP760 at ebay last week and the buyer is waiting. So i`ve to hurry up. Maybe 2 or 3 more days. Don`t forget: I am a normal working guy with normal spare time, hence I`ve to use the nights too (my eyes look like these -> ). I have to test 4 cards in about 10 games and benchmarks with 5 resolutions and have to put this into the right form and so on...

08-Dec-2002, 01:02	#12
rubank Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 147	Good going, Modulor

11-Dec-2002, 00:52	#13
Modulor Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 11	Done! http://www.tilebase.de Sorry for the people out there without DSL/Cable - there are plenty of huge graphics. But every single pic is worth waiting for... Have fun Axel

11-Dec-2002, 01:26	#14
rubank Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Sweden Posts: 147	Wow, that´s one hell of a review! Well done, and thanks

11-Dec-2002, 12:17	#15
PSarge Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: UK Posts: 147	I'm a little confused about some of the images, particularly the overdraw pictures on http://www.tilebase.de/reviews/VP560/VP560_18.html. Are those VP760 or VP560? The text seems to suggest their both overlaid on each other, but maybe I've misunderstood the german. P.S. I like all the Puma pictures

11-Dec-2002, 13:12	#17
PSarge Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: UK Posts: 147	Ahh, the mouse over thingy doesn't seem to work on my browser (Mozilla - Linux) Odd. Fine on IE though.

11-Dec-2002, 15:06	#18
Kristof Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Abbots Langley Posts: 732	I am not sure what those images actually show... what do these colors actually show ? There seem to be no block based areas which I find odd since most of these EarlyZ systems are based on, say, 8x8 block areas so I would expect some of the areas to be blocky. Also the Fortune image confuses me, somehow Villagemark drops to 1 layer but Fortune still sees overdraw rates of over 8... I find that really weird... why would Fortune not be pure 1 layer... whats weirder is that the left area toggles between 1 and 2 layers, but on the right it jumps up... why can the left area be flattened and the right not ? IMHO what these images show is not really what the card does, the villagemark shot seems to be an ideal result - as can be created, for example, when you do a depth render first and then use early Z and regular Z tests and you only change the color based on Z-passes. This means that even though you still do a hell of a lot of work because the depth render makes Z_test perfect you get these results but they are not indicative of the actual HSR capability. Anyway what does this mode actually do... Also the actual final fillrate result is still quite poor, fortunes fillrate capability is still way below the numbers that todays brute force cards can produce. Seems like all this proves is just that the 870 plain sucks at early HSR and that the 560 actually is now trying to do some. The delta you might see could be "EarlyZ" versus "no EarlyZ" rather than true deferring advantages ? Does anyone know what the true raw fillrate of this card is ?

11-Dec-2002, 21:21	#20
Luminescent Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 1,036	What do you guys think about the VP560? BTW, how does it perform when anti-aliasing?

12-Dec-2002, 13:20	#22
Luminescent Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Miami, Fl Posts: 1,036	Wow, that is one big hit. I really wish 3D labs would make a set of drivers for real-time 3D performance (a bit too much to ask for, but as a gamer you can dream).

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