Beyond3D Forum

joe75 · 03-Oct-2005, 11:11

http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61021

Eurogamer: On the technical side, Spartan's impressive. Hundreds of people on screen, in a total - er - war. What's intriguing to use is that how that games, even this late in the software cycle, are visually impressive. Last time, PS1 games were looking distinctly shoddy. But not the PS2 Spartan: Total Warrior...

Clive Gratton: It's interesting - and Sony is going to love me for this. I'm not even being facetious. Stop me if I'm going too techno, but there's a number of sub-processors in Sony's PS2. And there's one which no-one uses ever: Vector-unit Zero. Sony engineers, they'll continually say "Use Vector Unit Zero. The secret to speed is User Vector Unit Zero". And no-one does, as no-one can find a decent use for it. And the secret is, I have.

I'd written the framework for the game, the display engine and the AI. All of that during pre-production. And then we got the rest of the team on board, who didn't really know what they were getting into. I'm constantly, throughout the entire project, cracking the whip to make thing works faster, better, smaller, faster, FASTER! Any bits of code which were taking too long, I'd first sit down and look at them algorithmically. If it was doing too much work, I'd write a load of hand coded assembly language. A large chunk of this game is written in hand coded assembly language on the vector units. It's... a miracle of technology!

.
.

For example, everyone's talking about High Dynamic Range for next generation platforms, and we've got it running on PS2.

... expect BIG thingy from incoming God of War2 etc.,ehh.

LunchBox · 03-Oct-2005, 11:16

thankies for sharing!

an impressive find

can't wait to see the game in its final form.

bRoNx · 03-Oct-2005, 11:41

I can't say that was the easiest article to read! They need to fire their editor...'teh spelling errors'!

Oh yeah...

Quote:

Originally Posted by joe75

expect BIG thingy from incoming God of War2

Are these guys working on GOW2?

therealskywolf · 03-Oct-2005, 12:38

Where does i says it is using HDR? Are you crazy? Not to mention Xbox is running this game with ease, and it doesn't have HDR.

Titanio · 03-Oct-2005, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealskywolf

Where does i says it is using HDR? Are you crazy? Not to mention Xbox is running this game with ease, and it doesn't have HDR.

"For example, everyone's talking about High Dynamic Range for next generation platforms, and we've got it running on PS2"

I'd wonder about the implementation, of course..

Gholbine · 03-Oct-2005, 12:59

Let's hope Sony's new machine doesn't take as long to max-out as the PS2 did.

hugo · 03-Oct-2005, 13:18

Wow they're trying to do HDR on the PS2 now?The PS2 sure has lots of tricks behind its sleeves.

dantruon · 03-Oct-2005, 13:23

i knew vector 0 is powerful but not this powerful.

Shifty Geezer · 03-Oct-2005, 13:31

HDR doesn't need floating point representation. Most HDR pictures (photos) are made of 2 separate photos of the same scene taken at different exposures. Using this method you can combine 2 8bit per channel images and assemble them into an HDR image.

mckmas8808 · 03-Oct-2005, 13:48

Good find. It kind of makes me want to play the game. Yeah lets hope the PS3 can be a tad bit easier to program for.

AlStrong · 03-Oct-2005, 13:59

Someone want to remind me what the VU0 does, please?

Quote:

Originally Posted by london-boy

Right.
The day i see 20M polygons, HDR, subsurface scattering, harmonic lighting, all that jazz u said on a game, it will be the day i cut my balls off.

...

1 out of 4 isn't so bad.

london-boy · 03-Oct-2005, 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alstrong

Someone want to remind me what the VU0 does, please?

...

1 out of 4 isn't so bad.

Ok you get half of one of my balls.

Richard · 03-Oct-2005, 14:16

I guess this Vector Unit Zero doesn't help with keeping actors from floating...

The article was a good read. Btw, despite all the "HDR" mentions, the actual practical cases he mentions seem to amount to bloom as pp.

Shifty Geezer · 03-Oct-2005, 14:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alstrong

Someone want to remind me what the VU0 does, please?

Everything. It can realtime raytrace in 64 bit float precision with DOF, GI, AA, RAC, IMHO, AFAIK, and run complex AI on 65535 enemy entities too. At least, that's what some people would have us believe

london-boy · 03-Oct-2005, 14:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Everything. It can realtime raytrace in 64 bit float precision with DOF, GI, AA, RAC, IMHO, AFAIK, and run complex AI on 65535 enemy entities too. At least, that's what some people would have us believe

You forgot donuts.

therealskywolf · 03-Oct-2005, 14:33

I love it when Devs make it look like they have this amazing looking game running with all the the bells and wistles on the PS2....then we look at it and it's like "Ok...". The game doesn't look anything special, they sound like the guys that did Area 51, all they talked was how great their tech was on the PS2....then i played the Xbox and PS2 versions, and despite the Xbox version looking better, they both didn't look anything special, they looked alright, just that.

I allways laugh when these guys rave so much.

Nick Laslett · 03-Oct-2005, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by therealskywolf

I love it when Devs make it look like they have this amazing looking game running with all the the bells and wistles on the PS2....then we look at it and it's like "Ok...". The game doesn't look anything special, they sound like the guys that did Area 51, all they talked was how great their tech was on the PS2....then i played the Xbox and PS2 versions, and despite the Xbox version looking better, they both didn't look anything special, they looked alright, just that.

I allways laugh when these guys rave so much.

I take it you haven't played this game?

sytaylor · 03-Oct-2005, 15:21

Seem to remember the last splinter cell on the ps2 wasn't too shabby...

london-boy · 03-Oct-2005, 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by sytaylor

something...

What u doing in here!! Don't you know it's dangerous!! Get out before you get burnt!! OUT!!

And check your emails biatch, or is the BT server playing around again?

scooby_dooby · 03-Oct-2005, 15:37

"Seem to remember the last splinter cell on the ps2 wasn't too shabby..."
I seem to remember the GFX stunk compared to the XBOX version. Got a 7 at gamespot, vs a 9 for the XBOX version.
I just hope it doesn't take dev's this long to figure out CELL, it's like 6 years since launch and dev's are barely figuring out how to use the 2nd VU?

When's this game due out? The proof is in the tasting...

Mmmkay · 03-Oct-2005, 16:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by scooby_dooby

"Seem to remember the last splinter cell on the ps2 wasn't too shabby..."
I seem to remember the GFX stunk compared to the XBOX version. Got a 7 at gamespot, vs a 9 for the XBOX version.

Okay, thats the second time I've seen you swing that strawman now. How can you remember that the graphics stink when you obviously havent played the PS2 version as you need to backup your claims by presenting a gamespot review? For what it's worth, IGN gave the Xbox version 10 and PS2 9 for graphics. For a secondary development platform that isnt a bad score.

It's also interesting to note that Gamespot gave the PS2 version the second worst review on the internet... agenda perhaps?

vliw · 03-Oct-2005, 16:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by dantruon

i knew vector 0 is powerful but not this powerful.

VU0 is as powerful as VU1 but underused yet

it seems incredible but it's true.

scificube · 03-Oct-2005, 16:22

It has already been stated by devs that the PS3 is easier to work with than the PS2. Devs also don't have to make Cell do magic in that it has a good friend in RSX being a real GPU. Sony also seems quite determined to provide developers with better tools and support to leverage the hardware. The PS3 also this time will be at an overall disadvantage with respect to raw power to no other console we know about in the next round so it is highly unlikely the situation will arise that games need to be toned down in the overall in order to be ported to the platform. The major hurdles that developers must overcome for the PS3 are the same for the X360 in the majority of cases so if devs are mystified by the PS3 they will also be by the X360.

I feel we should expect to see good things from both the PS3 and the X360 in that they both have much more going for them in various areas than their predecessors respectively.

london-boy · 03-Oct-2005, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by vliw

VU0 is as powerful as VU1 but underused yet

it seems incredible but it's true.

Ciao Fra!

VU0 is not actually "as powerful" as VU1, it has smaller caches and it doesn't have a direct connection to the GS, it's just a little isolated thing to help the core or the VU1 out, which is why it has never been used much, and byt the time PS3 comes out, not many people will keep bothering.

robofunk · 03-Oct-2005, 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mmmkay

Okay, thats the second time I've seen you swing that strawman now. How can you remember that the graphics stink when you obviously havent played the PS2 version as you need to backup your claims by presenting a gamespot review? For what it's worth, IGN gave the Xbox version 10 and PS2 9 for graphics. For a secondary development platform that isnt a bad score.

It's also interesting to note that Gamespot gave the PS2 version the second worst review on the internet... agenda perhaps?

Wait when did Gamespot becone Xbox ******s?

03-Oct-2005, 11:11	#1
joe75 Naughty Boy! Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 95	Use Vector Unit Zero ... It's... a miracle of technology! http://eurogamer.net/article.php?article_id=61021 Eurogamer: On the technical side, Spartan's impressive. Hundreds of people on screen, in a total - er - war. What's intriguing to use is that how that games, even this late in the software cycle, are visually impressive. Last time, PS1 games were looking distinctly shoddy. But not the PS2 Spartan: Total Warrior... Clive Gratton: It's interesting - and Sony is going to love me for this. I'm not even being facetious. Stop me if I'm going too techno, but there's a number of sub-processors in Sony's PS2. And there's one which no-one uses ever: Vector-unit Zero. Sony engineers, they'll continually say "Use Vector Unit Zero. The secret to speed is User Vector Unit Zero". And no-one does, as no-one can find a decent use for it. And the secret is, I have. I'd written the framework for the game, the display engine and the AI. All of that during pre-production. And then we got the rest of the team on board, who didn't really know what they were getting into. I'm constantly, throughout the entire project, cracking the whip to make thing works faster, better, smaller, faster, FASTER! Any bits of code which were taking too long, I'd first sit down and look at them algorithmically. If it was doing too much work, I'd write a load of hand coded assembly language. A large chunk of this game is written in hand coded assembly language on the vector units. It's... a miracle of technology! . . For example, everyone's talking about High Dynamic Range for next generation platforms, and we've got it running on PS2. ... expect BIG thingy from incoming God of War2 etc.,ehh. Last edited by joe75; 03-Oct-2005 at 11:19.

03-Oct-2005, 11:16	#2
LunchBox Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: California Posts: 901	thankies for sharing! an impressive find can't wait to see the game in its final form. __________________ "the anonymity of the internet gives people the ability to grow e-balls..."

03-Oct-2005, 12:38	#4
therealskywolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lisbon Posts: 429	Where does i says it is using HDR? Are you crazy? Not to mention Xbox is running this game with ease, and it doesn't have HDR. __________________ Red Orchestra, 2 on 2 on some beta map, i was like 1 mile from the MG gunner, all i could see were the bursts of fire! My companion under fire... i pick up my standard rifle and trust my instinct. He was dead.....The 1 Mile Hit - Spawn - :)

03-Oct-2005, 13:23	#8
dantruon Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 487	i knew vector 0 is powerful but not this powerful. __________________ is all about the games !!

03-Oct-2005, 13:31	#9
Shifty Geezer uber-Troll! Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Under my bridge Posts: 26,428	HDR doesn't need floating point representation. Most HDR pictures (photos) are made of 2 separate photos of the same scene taken at different exposures. Using this method you can combine 2 8bit per channel images and assemble them into an HDR image. __________________ Shifty Geezer ... Tolerance for internet moronism is exhausted. Anyone talking about people's attitudes in the Console fora, rather than games and technology, will feel my wrath. Read the FAQ to remind yourself how to behave and avoid unsightly incidents.

03-Oct-2005, 12:59	#6
Gholbine Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 294	Let's hope Sony's new machine doesn't take as long to max-out as the PS2 did.

03-Oct-2005, 13:18	#7
hugo Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 172	Wow they're trying to do HDR on the PS2 now?The PS2 sure has lots of tricks behind its sleeves.

03-Oct-2005, 13:48	#10
mckmas8808 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 6,744	Good find. It kind of makes me want to play the game. Yeah lets hope the PS3 can be a tad bit easier to program for.

03-Oct-2005, 14:16	#13
Richard Mord's imaginary friend Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: PT, EU Posts: 3,506	I guess this Vector Unit Zero doesn't help with keeping actors from floating... The article was a good read. Btw, despite all the "HDR" mentions, the actual practical cases he mentions seem to amount to bloom as pp.

03-Oct-2005, 14:33	#16
therealskywolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Lisbon Posts: 429	I love it when Devs make it look like they have this amazing looking game running with all the the bells and wistles on the PS2....then we look at it and it's like "Ok...". The game doesn't look anything special, they sound like the guys that did Area 51, all they talked was how great their tech was on the PS2....then i played the Xbox and PS2 versions, and despite the Xbox version looking better, they both didn't look anything special, they looked alright, just that. I allways laugh when these guys rave so much. __________________ Red Orchestra, 2 on 2 on some beta map, i was like 1 mile from the MG gunner, all i could see were the bursts of fire! My companion under fire... i pick up my standard rifle and trust my instinct. He was dead.....The 1 Mile Hit - Spawn - :)

03-Oct-2005, 15:21	#18
sytaylor Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Halifax, UK Posts: 201	Seem to remember the last splinter cell on the ps2 wasn't too shabby... __________________ Can't stop the violence I love it, No-one's immune you can't stop it. Random hate, when I'm lashing out at you, it's a way of life.

03-Oct-2005, 15:37	#20
scooby_dooby Regular Join Date: May 2005 Location: E-town, Alberta Posts: 8,418	"Seem to remember the last splinter cell on the ps2 wasn't too shabby..." I seem to remember the GFX stunk compared to the XBOX version. Got a 7 at gamespot, vs a 9 for the XBOX version. I just hope it doesn't take dev's this long to figure out CELL, it's like 6 years since launch and dev's are barely figuring out how to use the 2nd VU? When's this game due out? The proof is in the tasting...

03-Oct-2005, 16:22	#23
scificube Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 836	It has already been stated by devs that the PS3 is easier to work with than the PS2. Devs also don't have to make Cell do magic in that it has a good friend in RSX being a real GPU. Sony also seems quite determined to provide developers with better tools and support to leverage the hardware. The PS3 also this time will be at an overall disadvantage with respect to raw power to no other console we know about in the next round so it is highly unlikely the situation will arise that games need to be toned down in the overall in order to be ported to the platform. The major hurdles that developers must overcome for the PS3 are the same for the X360 in the majority of cases so if devs are mystified by the PS3 they will also be by the X360. I feel we should expect to see good things from both the PS3 and the X360 in that they both have much more going for them in various areas than their predecessors respectively. __________________ stagnation culminates from complacency Last edited by scificube; 03-Oct-2005 at 16:32.

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