[Megadrive1988]

http://movies.teamxbox.com/speedtree_pangaea.wmv

fairly impressive stuff. I have no idea where this is actually from (other than teamxbox) what hardware it's running on, or what it is supposed to represent, other than that it is realtime, and *not* prerendered CG


edit: some quick googling turns up that its from Nvidia.

[Fodder]

Or perhaps from SpeedTree.

[McFly]

It's integrated into the Unreal Engine 3.0, so you can guess where you will see those trees.

Fredi

[Agisthos]

"SpeedTreeRT™ Named Sole Foliage Middleware Partner for Next Generation Xbox® Platform"

“Next generation Xbox players will quickly come to appreciate ― and expect ― SpeedTree powered titles.”

Tracey Frankcom
Xbox Tools &
Middleware Manager

[Shrike_Priest]

While I can definitely see the benefits of having a tool like this, I'm very concerned about what this will do to art direction. Sure, I'm aware that SpeedTree is very customisable, and you have a lot of freedom, but since it's so easy to just generate a bunch of trees, I'm thinking that we might see a lot of devs "cop out".

You know the whole "Nvidia-effect" syndrome, where every game used the same bump-mapping and texture effects. Everything looked the same. I'm worried you'll be able to look at a next gen tree and it'll scream "cut and pasted SpeedTree".

The demo looks impressive but some of the trees just look boring

Hopefully they'll bring this over to PS3 and Revolution though, or at least some variant.

[PC-Engine]

Originally Posted by Shrike_Priest

While I can definitely see the benefits of having a tool like this, I'm very concerned about what this will do to art direction. Sure, I'm aware that SpeedTree is very customisable, and you have a lot of freedom, but since it's so easy to just generate a bunch of trees, I'm thinking that we might see a lot of devs "cop out".

You know the whole "Nvidia-effect" syndrome, where every game used the same bump-mapping and texture effects. Everything looked the same. I'm worried you'll be able to look at a next gen tree and it'll scream "cut and pasted SpeedTree".

The demo looks impressive but some of the trees just look boring

Hopefully they'll bring this over to PS3 and Revolution though, or at least some variant.

Agreed.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Agisthos

"SpeedTreeRT™ Named Sole Foliage Middleware Partner for Next Generation Xbox® Platform"

That's a real statement?! I thought you were taking the mik!

That's like "VirtuOrange™ Named Sole Orange Hue Calculator Middleware Partner for Next Generation XBox® Platform" or "SimulJumpTech™ Named Sole Platformer Jump Engine Middleware Partner for Next Generation XBox® Platform".

Trees are models. Import them from a modelling package. There's lots of options there. Why's a whole middleware provider needed? What about grass? Flowers? Bricks? Are we going to see a Tarmac provider?

Gah, the whole world's gone mad!

[Shrike_Priest]

To be fair, SpeedTree does do a bit more than modelling. It controls wind-behaviour, flexibility, LOD, shadow-mapping and so on.

If you just import a model, you'd have to do all that manually, with SpeedTree, a lot of it is automated. From what I gather, it's also designed to let modellers create a multitude of similar, yet not quite identical trees by just messing about with a few perimeters.

It's impressive tech, regardless of whether or not it will produce soulless trees

But yeah, the "Sole Foliage Middleware Partner"-line is hilarious.

[Iron Tiger]

Originally Posted by Shrike_Priest

While I can definitely see the benefits of having a tool like this, I'm very concerned about what this will do to art direction. Sure, I'm aware that SpeedTree is very customisable, and you have a lot of freedom, but since it's so easy to just generate a bunch of trees, I'm thinking that we might see a lot of devs "cop out".

You know the whole "Nvidia-effect" syndrome, where every game used the same bump-mapping and texture effects. Everything looked the same. I'm worried you'll be able to look at a next gen tree and it'll scream "cut and pasted SpeedTree".

The demo looks impressive but some of the trees just look boring

Hopefully they'll bring this over to PS3 and Revolution though, or at least some variant.

You don't have to worry about that. SpeedTree in Unreal Engine 2 looks a lot different from Unreal Engine 3, which looks a lot different from ES: Oblivion's SpeedTree implementation.

[Confidence-Man]

So if someone else comes up with another foliage middleware solution, noone can use it on Xbox 360? :?

[Shifty Geezer]

I think they could. Just that SpeedTree is the 'official' solution. Like, I dunno, Budweiser being the offical beer of the NFL. Doesn't mean you can't drink any other beer while watching, just that Bud paid a packet to get their name in the limelight.

If not, if this IS an exclusive deal, it's bad news. What if someone develops a new, better technology for tree rendering? Especially given the dream of procedural rendering with objects being created on the fly.

[jvd]

Mabye this is the software that ms is giving free or has set up a deal to give highly discounted to all devs .

I don't see a problem with middleware like this . Sure you might get alot of reused models . But for simple things like trees and street lights (Examples ) why would every dev need to waste time making the models and textures for these ? Why not have a middleware program that concentrates on just these generic things so that developers spend less money making trees and more making player models and other more time consuming models

[Shifty Geezer]

I agree with that philosophy. There should be a big model-bank where compnies can purchase models. How many devs end up designing cars? Even the same make and model? Instead, say, a car munafacturer can license models. Or just have a few companies that use tree designers to create tress etc. for people and sell the models on. Cars, people, foliage, scenery...all generic where it's a waste of time dozens of artists working for dozens of devs to produce the same models.

But then it strieks me as insane developers write code for a game, and next game chuck out all their routines are write from scratch again, but apparently this is the case. I guess they just like making things difficult for themselves?

[a688]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

I agree with that philosophy. There should be a big model-bank where compnies can purchase models. How many devs end up designing cars? Even the same make and model? Instead, say, a car munafacturer can license models. Or just have a few companies that use tree designers to create tress etc. for people and sell the models on. Cars, people, foliage, scenery...all generic where it's a waste of time dozens of artists working for dozens of devs to produce the same models

I've thought about that too. It'd be a smart move for Microsoft if they hired a lot of modelers and had them create "super" resolution models with millions++ of polygons and all of the fancy texturing and pixel shading and whatever else they want. License them out for cheap to companies making games on the xbox and the company can reduce the complexity of models so they can use them in their game. Since each company can modify the stock design from the high resolution base, two games using the same base model can still look different. Microsoft could license the models for the xbox version of the game only so that the xbox version could be that much more "special" or MS could charge more for a multiple platform license so the company could use the models in the game on any platform they want.

[rabidrabbit]

In the sequence starting at 1:00 (autumn coloured trees) there's two trees exactly the same (at 1:02 exactly).
So it isn't some procedural tree generator middleware? How is that different from using premodelled trees from a library with simplish animation applied for wind effects?

[Shifty Geezer]

As for resolution, if you provide the models in a Subdivision model the developers can tesselate down to whatever resolution they want, if the hardware can't handle NURBS rendering directly.

[Agisthos]

I cant see how people can be confused about this or think it is riduculous.

As a developer you are free to use any foliage middleware you want, but if you have the standard MS middleware you get speedtree.

Dont get the wrong idea about reusing the same designs e.t.c all this stuff is fractally generated meaning every game will have different stuff.
They have been talking about middleware to create generated foliage since the PS2 days but i guess its only now that we have the cpu power to do it.
Next gen middleware like this can cut down game creation time drastically as there is no need to hand model each and every single tree

[pc999]

Anything that gives us good and big it is a good thing.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by Shrike_Priest

The demo looks impressive but some of the trees just look boring

Just as in real life then.

I'm also a bit concerned that games might all end up looking kinda alike if they all use the exact same tech. But as Speedtree is quite customizable, I'm pretty sure the decent art teams will still be able to set themselves apart from the mass and give their games an individual feel, just as they do now...

[Jon Brittan]

Originally Posted by Gollum

I'm also a bit concerned that games might all end up looking kinda alike if they all use the exact same tech. But as Speedtree is quite customizable, I'm pretty sure the decent art teams will still be able to set themselves apart from the mass and give their games an individual feel, just as they do now...

The thing is, as long as we're talking "Earth" trees, then a tree is a tree is a tree, the better looking they are the better, it's what then surrounds the trees (or what they surround) that differentiates the feel of a game. A game with 10,000 standard SpeedTree trees surrounding a medieval castle will feel different to a game with 100,000 standard SpeedTree trees surrounding that same castles overgrown ruins, which will feel different to a game with 50 standard SpeedTree trees in the gardens of a big glass and metal business park...
SpeedTree allows easy building of one of the "constants" of Earth based games at least, what the developers choose to put alongside those trees is what will determine the feel of the game. I very much doubt were you wandering through one of those game scenarios I described above and were then to switch to a racing game which had SpeedTree trees alongside the track it would put you off the games...

[Simon F]

Originally Posted by rabidrabbit

In the sequence starting at 1:00 (autumn coloured trees) there's two trees exactly the same (at 1:02 exactly).
So it isn't some procedural tree generator middleware? How is that different from using premodelled trees from a library with simplish animation applied for wind effects?

I'm sure those trees could probably have all been unique. The trouble with that is that each would have to be fully generated to be renderable by the hardware, and that would imply a large amount of storage. Duplicating a few would thus cut down the rendering costs.

[PC-Engine]

The thing is, as long as we're talking "Earth" trees, then a tree is a tree is a tree

No, different species of trees look different. A pine does not look like an oak, etc.

[Jon Brittan]

Originally Posted by PC-Engine

No, different species of trees look different. A pine does not look like an oak, etc.

I understand that, but the general structures are similar, what I am getting at is that having a standardised tree generator does not hamper art direction, once you have the building blocks of trees in place it is not that difficult to make the changes necessary to differentiate between different species of tree.

Also, the thing is, a Pine does not look like an Oak in terms of trees, but anyone looking at them could tell they were the same type of object so in terms of every object you may want to represent on a computer screen an Oak and a Pine look, act and are built very much alike when compared to say an Oak and a sportscar.

[EPe9686518]

Also, the thing is, a Pine does not look like an Oak in terms of trees, but anyone looking at them could tell they were the same type of object so in terms of every object you may want to represent on a computer screen an Oak and a Pine look, act and are built very much alike when compared to say an Oak and a sportscar.

Give me a break, some of you guys are nit picking to the 1003243120412312 power of nit picking. The demo looks stunning. It is as simple as that. It looks stunning. Developers have full control of how they make the trees look, this demo is what you get with the package it self and it looks amazing. But every game that uses it will look different. The trees in the unreal engine 3 demo do not look the same as elder scrolls 4 or UT 2007. Or even Pariah and other games that use speed trees. Developers can make the trees look unque in their games. And that is exactly what they have been doing. Any fears of all games trees looking the same have already been shot down.

[JacksBleedingEyes]

GAAAHHH, they all look like age of empires trees.