[Megadrive1988]

thanks to Cesar on teamxbox.com and teamxbox forums for this:


page 1 of a 4 page interview on with AGEIA Technologies

AGEIA Technologies Interview

By: César A. Berardini - "Cesar"
April 12th, 2005
In the early 90’s, games like Wolfenstein 3D started a revolution that shaped the overall direction of the computer gaming industry with the advent of hardware graphics acceleration; first in the form of 3D only add-on cards, then with graphic boards that integrated both 2D and 3D functions into one single chip, afterwards called a GPU.

After that revolution, nVIDIA and ATI have been improving their graphics chips to offer better visuals with every new hardware generation, producing an exponential leap in visuals that has caused game development companies to employ ten times the artists they used to require a decade ago. But unfortunately, better graphics has not translated into better gameplay for the simple reason that what really matters when all is said and done is gameplay.


In this era of near photorealistic graphics, can we expect better games? If AGEIA succeeds with their multi-threaded physics API and the revolutionary idea of hardware accelerated physics, then we might not only get better games but also witness a new revolution in gaming that will once again shake the entire industry just like the switch from 2D to 3D graphics of the last decade. This could certainly change gaming forever.

The company's PhysX chip, the world's first dedicated Physics Processing Unit (PPU), will be supported in the next-generation line-up from Ubisoft and it is expected other publishers will jump on board. On top of that, AGEIA’s NovodeX Physics SDK is an official Xbox real-time physics middleware tool that will exploit the multicore architecture of the Xbox 360 and Epic Games has also announced the integration of the NovodeX API and support for the PhysX chip in the Unreal Engine 3.

We recently spoke with Manju Hegde, CEO and Chairman of AGEIA Technologies Inc, in order to get the scoop on their PhysX chip and the NovodeX Physics SDK, the first and only multithreaded physics API capable of unleashing the power of the PhysX chip, as well as multiprocessor gaming systems.


First we would like you to introduce yourself and provide us some background information on AGEIA, its history, focus, etc.

Manju Hegde: AGEIA™ Technologies, Inc., is a company dedicated to delivering pervasive real-time interactivity to next-generation games. AGEIA’s products include the PhysX™ chip, the world’s first dedicated Physics Processing Unit (PPU), and the NovodeX™ Physics SDK, the first asynchronous (multithreaded) physics middleware engine with comprehensive API support for the PhysX chip.

AGEIA was formed in 2002 and secured Series A funding for $9.5 million in May 2003. Today, the company has more than $38 million in funding and an additional $30 million secured. Major investors include Apex Venture Partners, BA Venture Partners, HIG Ventures, Granite Global Ventures, CID Equity Partners and VentureTech, an investment entity of TSMC.



Why did the company abandon its original focus on networking in order to start working with physics?

Manju Hegde: The company has always focused on game physics and physics simulation. The founding team has had a lot of experience in physics simulation algorithms and in designing switch fabrics and network processors in the networking field in prior companies


When and why did you acquire Switzerland-based NovodeX AG?

Manju Hegde: We acquired Novodex AG in 2004 because they had one of the most robust, multi-platform, multi-threaded high performance software physics simulation technologies not only for rigid bodies but also for other advanced physics simulations. This has now been complemented with sophisticated tools. The Novodex SDK is natively supported on AGEIA hardware so that game developers can use the hardware physics simulation seamlessly while having a software fallback. It is also possible to use AGEIA hardware with other software physics SDKs.


Let’s get physical. What exactly is a PPU?

Manju Hegde: A Physics Processing Unit (PPU) is a completely new hardware category that bridges the gap between static virtual worlds and pervasive physical reality. This new hardware category represents the next milestone in the evolution of game acceleration, following in the footsteps of the CPU and GPU. The PPU works alongside these processors, completing the triangle of gameplay, 3D imagery and physics-based interaction.



AGEIA’s PhysX™chip is the world’s first dedicated PPU. With AGEIA’s groundbreaking new technology, developers can now create scenes using the same laws of physics that govern the physical universe, enabling players to interact with any object in any scene at any time, providing pervasive interactive reality. In concert with the CPU and GPU, the PhysX chip will allow game developers to create characters, backgrounds and effects that rival those of Hollywood movies, but with interactivity.

[Karma Police]

I like that Intel is working with them. Makes me think that even Intel believes in the CPU/PPU/GPU triangle.

[Megadrive1988]

from page 3:

Speaking of 3dfx, although they were the first to revolutionize the graphics market with their Voodoo cards, they were acquired by a competitor who came onto the graphics scene afterward and beat 3dfx at their own game. What are you plans for the immediate future?

Manju Hegde: As mentioned before, we plan to offer different versions of the PhysX PPU. We have a far-reaching technology road-map and have been working on the next-gen PPU for some time now.

even if Xenon / Xbox360 does not have a PPU, I'd expect that Xbox3 will probably have a next-generation PPU, maybe AGEIA's 2nd or 3rd generation PPU. and perhaps there will be a console inbetween Xbox360-PS3 and Xbox3-PS4, with a next-gen PPU.

[jvd]

I hope this doesn't need active cooling. If its passive i will buy it

[Megadrive1988]

from page 4:

Can you reveal (of course without telling us who the company is) if the PhysX PPU will be in any form inside at least one of the next generation consoles, or was it too late in the process to contribute to these upcoming products?

Manju Hegde: On this one, you will have to wait.

someone on txf said: Holy crap. More fuel to the fire. This would be a major coup. It wouldn't matter how powerful the Cell is if X360 has a PPU. Let that marinate.



still don't think that an actual PPU will be used in Xbox2

my guess:

Xbox2: "software PPU" with the Novodex API
Xbox3: next generation PPU in hardware

[Farid]

Originally Posted by Megadrive1988

from page 4:

As long as the next-gen consoles have not been publicly presented and then released, there's still hope for Ageia to be in one machine. But at this point, it's just that, hope.

Originally Posted by Megadrive1988

someone on txf said: Holy crap. More fuel to the fire. This would be a major coup. It wouldn't matter how powerful the Cell is if X360 has a PPU. Let that marinate.

You know better than that Megadrive, you know that a fixed function physic IC on a machine, would be helpful for physic calculations only, while a powerful CPU (Be it Cell or the XeCPU) can be useful for a hell lot more things.

Originally Posted by Megadrive1988

Xbox2: "software PPU" with the Novodex API
Xbox3: next generation PPU in hardware

Software PPU = plain vanilla physic engine.
Also, the Novodex middleware tools are already available for today's platforms. And it's not better/more efficient than say the Havok engine, by the way.

And for the next generation, once again, why would MS choose fixed function over more general purpose calculation power, for their physic needs?

[Megadrive1988]

ahh that's true, I have to agree with Vysez, It's not going to be worth it to implement fixed function silicon on Xenon when the multi-core CPU can do all of that physics processing and more (as good as needed for nextgen games).


but since those comments arose...

[nelg]

I still believe that this relates to that “MS asked IBM to integrate something into the CPU that they had difficulty with” comment that, IIRC, Dave made.

NB. recall is from my poor memory

Edit it was Deano

Originally Posted by DeanoC

What I know of its origins is that its not an existing processor design you can buy or read any public information on, that MS asked and got some specific hard to make features (that IBM had problems with) and its quite powerful.

[jvd]

well having a ppu in there will free up the xcpu to concentrate on other things mabye combined it can out perform the cell that will have the shoulder physics and other things.

However i really doubt a full ppu will be in the xenon , mabye a cut back ppu

[GwymWeepa]

What's the likelyhood that one of the cores in Xenon could be made more efficient at physics, but still be a general purpose cpu if needed? The PPU pretty much only does physics, and does it amazingly well, can a PPC chip be made to be just a real good physics chip and a reasonably good CPU backed up by 2 great CPU's?

[bbot]

http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewto...=478813#478813

[EndR]

Why do people say that xenon basically don´t need a PPU because it has a powerful multicore setup?

I mean, having a PPU would let the multicore setup being free from the physics-stuff and therefore, more power can be used for AI, graphics and such...

or am I on a limb here?

[Acert93]

Originally Posted by Vysez

And for the next generation, once again, why would MS choose fixed function over more general purpose calculation power, for their physic needs?

I think the Why? is that a PPU is going to be extremely effecient at performing physics ops. IF MS felt they needed silicone to compete with the CELL SPEs for physics (and leaving the 3 PPC cores for general processing and the vector engines for Geometry and AI) to level the field they could have looked at this. I am not sure the X2 needs it as it is a very powerful machine in its own right. But a PPU would leave ~80-100GFLOPs to geometry and AI, while performing Physics at an extremely high level. This would be a little less flexible, but would also give a lot of power to all three general areas of performance. Physics is a big deal next gen, so a Console maker may try to capitolize on that by making it easier/more powerful.

[Brimstone]

Originally Posted by EndR

Why do people say that xenon basically don´t need a PPU because it has a powerful multicore setup?

I mean, having a PPU would let the multicore setup being free from the physics-stuff and therefore, more power can be used for AI, graphics and such...

or am I on a limb here?

Yep.


A PPU in the X-Box 360 would crush even a 2 core 16 spu PS3.

[rabidrabbit]

What are the specs of this PPU? How many FLOPS, clock frequency, does it have own memory...?

[Farid]

Originally Posted by EndR

Why do people say that xenon basically don´t need a PPU because it has a powerful multicore setup?

I mean, having a PPU would let the multicore setup being free from the physics-stuff and therefore, more power can be used for AI, graphics and such...

or am I on a limb here?

Of course, having a powerful CPU and a PPU would a be a great thing.

But having 4 High End GPUs each with 64MB of eDRAM, 4GB of main system RAM (bleeding edge XDR, if possible), a 200GB HDD, a fixed function IC for Raytracing, a BRD drive plus a HD-DVD drive so you don't care which format win, would also be great thing.

If you have a budget of x dollars for your machine, trade-offs have to be made. If you can have a PPU of z millions of transistors, then you can also have a CPU of z millions of transistors for the same price (I'm simplifying things here, but the point remains the same).

Therefore, you'd have to choose between a fixed function unit, that will not be used to its full potential in all games (not all games needs extensive physic model), the PPU, or general purpose IC, that can be used to calculate physics when needed, but can also calculate sounds, AI, geometry, when the game doesn't need physics, A CPU.

Personaly, at this point in time, where physic engines are still evolving rapidly, and where a majority of games, by their nature, don't needs complex physic, I would choose a CPU over a PPU any day.

[kyetech]

Originally Posted by Megadrive1988

ahh that's true, I have to agree with Vysez, It's not going to be worth it to implement fixed function silicon on Xenon when the multi-core CPU can do all of that physics processing and more (as good as needed for nextgen games).


but since those comments arose...

YEAH BUT .... it FREES UP the CPU, so that it will compete much closer to cell.... so in effect same difference !!

[pc999]

1- Today games dont need those physics power, but next gen have right for their own reason to be next gen, and only gfx is not one
( for me at least AI, new inputs, and physics not in a particular order, and this would bring two of them to the table)

2- Fixed function is not very good, but it is a start (MS slids from GDC shows that they at least considered the chance)

3- a PPU should not cost more to produce than ~1/2 of the CELL, and if you assume that are PPEs the XeCPUs cores you can it would be less or ~ equal the cost of prodution. And lisencing MS helps with the desktop and take a PPU almost for free.


So I think there is a good chance for a XePPU.
It would be nice if it is programable but...

[Acert93]

Originally Posted by rabidrabbit

What are the specs of this PPU? How many FLOPS, clock frequency, does it have own memory...?

All we know is that the chip they have for the PC is 130nm w/ 125M transistors, consumes 25W of power, and uses 128MB of GDDR3. They are estimating the PPU can calculate 40-50k rigid bodies/second. From the context I understood that to be "full featured" calculations. (Btw, all from memory so please forgive any mistakes). It was estimated the PPU would be out in fall, but no price point is set yet.

Whether it has already been shrunk to 90nm, if the 125M is the high end, low end, or if the memory pool is because PC memory is too slow (DDR is 3.2GB/s and shared, dual channel is 6.4GB/s) or if it requires a ton of memory space we do not know.

We also have no performance numbers or any real hard facts. All we know is that the Novodex physics engine has a software implimentation like Havok/Havok 2 (and the other one that starts with an "m") and it also works with the PPU.

Personally I hope that if it ends up in a console the hardware is an open standard, meaning Havok can be compiled to use the HW also.

[rabidrabbit]

Ok, thanks.

This

Originally Posted by Brimstone

PPU in the X-Box 360 would crush even a 2 core 16 spu PS3.

just made me wonder if they had released some actual performance specs

[Farid]

Acert93 brought two interesting points to the discussion.

The first, is a thing that made me think from the start that the Xbox360 won't have a PPU, was that the Ageia PPU uses their Novodex engine as the PPU API, meaning that other physic engine such as Havok, Meqon, or a game specific engine would not be able to use the PPU.
The Havok 3.0 will be used in some Xbox360 games, that's a fact (For instance, Monolith publicly said that their game Condemned will use Havok 3.0).
Now when you connect the dots, a PPU in the Xbox360 doesn't seem to be a resonable guess.

The second point is that nobody except Ageia programmed this PPU, therefore any claims made about its performance/advantages have to be taken with a grain of salt.
We all know that theorical performances and real world performances are two distinctive things.

[Acert93]

After getting time to read the entire interview it seems Ageias is open to Havok and Meqon using their hardware, but it does not appear that they have had an oppurtunity compile their apps for it yet:

Right now, the only way to unleash the power of the PhysX PPU is by using the Novodex API, right? Would you provide the inside of your architecture for other software physics engines to use? For example, let’s say Havok or Meqon Research AB wants to its engine to be PhysX compatible. You know what happened to 3dfx and GLIDE…

Manju Hegde: As mentioned in the second answer, the NovodeX SDK is natively supported on AGEIA hardware so that game developers can use the hardware physics simulation seamlessly while having a software fallback. It is also possible to use AGEIA hardware with other software physics SDKs and several of the games that will be available in the 2005 Christmas season will incorporate software physics other than Novodex. Our goal is to have every physics API supporting our hardware, there is a natural synergy with the software API and physics hardware. We would be fully supportive of Havok or Meqon Research AB porting their middleware onto our hardware.

[Shifty Geezer]

Surely the hardware's implementation is a set of pretty standard Physics objects and maths functions? They all do the same things and work the same way, right? Of course, there are different approaches, but as a specialist maths coprocessor I'd have thought the maths the PPU does applies to all physics simulations.

What might a PPU look like in terms of functional units and implementation? Any docs on this thing?

[gurgi]

The benefit I see, is that developers would actually use the transisters for physics, since the chip wouldn't really be useful for much else.


Yeah, yeah...I know. Developers ought to be free to choose. But as a consumer that wants bigger and badder physics above all else, I would definately buy a console that had a PPU, and ultimately, I am the real customer, not the developers!! =P

[Carl B]

Originally Posted by rabidrabbit

Ok, thanks.

This

just made me wonder if they had released some actual performance specs

Well, I rather have a 2 PE/16 SPE Cell configuration over a 2 PPC/1 PPU configuration, but I guess that's just me.