Beyond3D Forum

Dave Baumann · 13-Sep-2002, 08:36

While we've all been distracted by ATI's Radeon 9700 PRO ATI simultaniously launched the low end Radeon 9000 PRO. Today we'll take a look at the features and performance of this low end offering to see what it yeilds.

Here's a snip from the review:

"Even more so than Radeon 9700 PRO's R300 chip, the RV250 chip that powers Radeon 9000 PRO started making fleeting appearances some time ago causing a confusion of rumours and speculation. It long since been known that RV250 would be on the .15m silicon process the same as R300 and Radeon 8500's R200 before it, however a mix of reports indicating higher speeds and performance, more integration than 8500 whilst still being a low end part. More integration and performance on the same process didn't seem to add up to a lower costing chip."

Read the full review here.

Reverend · 13-Sep-2002, 10:32

Quote:

Comparing the two boards we can see that generally the Radeon 9000 PRO looks more uncomplicated than Radeon 8500.

I see John's absence is missed

. "more uncomplicated" or "even less complicated" , hehe.

In the test setup page, the secondary 1.8GHz system still lists a 2.53GHz P4.

I no longer feel the necessity to use SS:SE for DX and OGL tests (whatever the specific tests may be) - Dean Sekulic pretty much admitted to me that DX is just an option to exercise his DX skills (with the team being more proficient in OGL) and it is a poor reflection of the differences between the two APIs in terms of performance (in case that is what folks conclude, which is possible). DX vs OGL in SS:SE can lead to wrong assumptions IMO.

For the Aniso and AA tests, using SS : SE with Extreme GFx addon may not be the best choice - this addon, by virtue of CPU-dependent complex shadows, will make such tests less revealing when it comes to AA and aniso performance, both of which should be the domain of video card power (which becomes less apparent amongst video cards with complex shadows).

Other than some typos (Johnnn!), it was again a good read (although, again, I skipped the performance tables, hehe) and shows the obvious amount of time this review took. I am particularly taken in by your conclusion and I honestly don't see why IHVs name their products the way they do (other than to perhaps make some money

).

mat · 13-Sep-2002, 10:34

page 6 and 7 are identical (SS OpenGL)

Edit: hmm.. SSam is page 11, dont know what i'Ve seen before (maybe i should'nt post so early

)

Dave Baumann · 13-Sep-2002, 14:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by mat

page 6 and 7 are identical (SS OpenGL)

Edit: hmm.. SSam is page 11, dont know what i'Ve seen before (maybe i should'nt post so early

)

No, you weren't imagining it - SS:SE (OpenGL) had got copied over what should have been JKII results. Its fixed now though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend

For the Aniso and AA tests, using SS : SE with Extreme GFx addon may not be the best choice - this addon, by virtue of CPU-dependent complex shadows, will make such tests less revealing when it comes to AA and aniso performance, both of which should be the domain of video card power (which becomes less apparent amongst video cards with complex shadows).

CPU limitation is usually dependant on two things: the CPU used and/or the graphics card. It depends on how powerful/limited each of these are where the limitations will occur. The fillrate graph the the normal test (which uses the Extreme addon, but with standard filtering) shows that clearly on this combination of CPU/video card even at 800x600 its predomanently fill limited as opposed to CPU.

BTW - you'll note I even managed to squeeze my nice new laminate flooring into the review!

Joe DeFuria · 13-Sep-2002, 14:39

Nice job Dave!

One question on AA: Based on the 2X shot, I would not say that it is ordered grid. (Both the near Horizontal and near-vertical lines show AA.)

Based on the "sample positions", (2X more dots in the vertical direction), it does look like 2X sampling in the vertical direction. But the edges on the image say otherwise.

Maybe Basic can provide some other explanation?

Saem · 13-Sep-2002, 14:40

Could it be that it's adapting the sampling pattern?

Anonymous · 13-Sep-2002, 17:32

and the overclock test??

good review 8)

GetStuff · 13-Sep-2002, 19:48

RV250 has a 10 bit dac?

http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/...page=page2.inc

Jima13 · 14-Sep-2002, 18:14

I noticed Essential Computers have the 128mb version> http://www.essencompu.com/nupplysingar.asp?ID=2469 < would you expect the performance difference to be about the same as the 8500 64/128?

Pete · 15-Sep-2002, 07:45

Dave, forgot to add my thanks for an excellent review (taking good things for granted). I especially liked the processor comparisons. Thanks.

Dave Baumann · 15-Sep-2002, 08:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe DeFuria

One question on AA: Based on the 2X shot, I would not say that it is ordered grid. (Both the near Horizontal and near-vertical lines show AA.)

I’m not sure about that – if it was rotated I’d expect to see roughly the same lengths in the gradients, but on the bottom there isn’t. Perhaps I’ll dig out a KYRO one of these days to see what its 2X shows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi

and the overclock test??

good review 8)

Damn, I knew there was something I forgot!

Quote:

Originally Posted by GetStuff

RV250 has a 10 bit dac?

According to the ATI docs sent to me, yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jima13

I noticed Essential Computers have the 128mb version> http://www.essencompu.com/nupplysingar.asp?ID=2469 < would you expect the performance difference to be about the same as the 8500 64/128?

Probably, yes. I’m guessing there wouldn’t really be much difference between the two. 128MB boards are probably best for FSAA, but 9000’s FSAA incurs too much of a performance penalty.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pete

Dave, forgot to add my thanks for an excellent review (taking good things for granted). I especially liked the processor comparisons. Thanks.

Glad you enjoyed it.

up · 24-Sep-2002, 22:07

Thanx!
But i've got one question about Truform!
Is it really worthless? You don't even mention it...
I wonder for the 'real' UT2003 (demo has no settings for it) and hope truform matters!
Obviously, the engine can't build smooth enough edges!

Dave Baumann · 24-Sep-2002, 22:31

OK. AFAIK, 9000 has no hardware support for TRUFORM, thats why is not mentioned. I believe they may be doing some driver emulation at some point though.

I believe the UT 2003 demo does have TRUFORM support but you need to alter some config file settings as it not in the main menu options - do a search for it on the forum.

up · 24-Sep-2002, 23:25

Dave, you're right about the dropped HW-truform, i know.
Ati self mentions nothing about it either.
It's fading out...
Check ati's specs for the 9000 and 9700:
Trueform is gone... not listed in the featurelist.
9700:
http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/index.html
9000:
http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/index.html

I know about the demo-tweaks, but wait for the final release anyway.

But what card to get is damed difficult!
I was impressed by the smooth truform-edges in e.g. CS - great!
AA isn't that important for me with 1068x768 up, but that ugly edges are still present in all the impressive screenshots from D3 and UT2k3 etc., dispite the high polygones!
FUR e.g. could cover that, but that seems not to be used in UT2k3.

Dave Baumann · 24-Sep-2002, 23:58

TRUFORM is most definitly in 9700, and it been extented on :

http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/...page=page2.inc

up · 25-Sep-2002, 00:33

BTW, the ATI Radeon 9700 PRO review is also great, Dave!

Anyway, isn't it strange, that Truform 2.0 is not on the 9700-'front'page
http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/index.html
, but 'hidden' in the specs-page
http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/specs.html

Some 9000-cardmakers are simply confusing:

http://www.cptech.com.tw/powercolor/...=R9000PRO128MB

BTW, Powercolor has a 9000 pci

http://www.cptech.com.tw/powercolor/web/product.asp
just checked a few sites...

Anonymous · 24-Nov-2002, 22:47

Quick and simple question, which one should i get, the 8500LE 123 or the 9000 pro 128?

Nice review!!! :P

Anonymous · 17-Jan-2003, 19:01

yeah i've heard that the 8500 is better for gaming that true?
8500 is so much more expeneisve tho.. dunno what to do...

i hope the 9000 isn't like some crappy riva tnt2 card where it will only last u a lil while :/ :P :P :P

Tagrineth · 17-Jan-2003, 20:08

Yes, the 8500 is better, in fact ATi themselves acknowledged that and have relabeled it '9100' and are selling off the remaining massive R200 inventory as such.

Basic · 17-Jan-2003, 20:53

Joe:
Late answer, but I hadn't read this thread.

I've seen it before, and I think I've commented it not too long ago ... <searching> ... hehe, just 8 hours after your post I mentioned it in a different thread.

It's probably easier to do jittered grid for geometry samples than for texture samples, and the jittered grid is most needed for edges. So it seems they did it half way, jittered grid for geometry (edges), and ordered grid for textures.

It's not a 45º rotated grid though, since the "steps" are uneven.

Joe DeFuria · 17-Jan-2003, 21:10

Thanks, Basic!

Anonymous · 13-Dec-2003, 11:37

lo all,
I read the review, and holy cow theres a lot of info to take in, and it is really well constructed, in all, but it didn't help me very much. It really only works with the 9000 and the 8500. What about benchmarking it against other cards? Maybe from other brands or something so it is easier to get an understanding for what is out there?

Anonymous · 13-Dec-2003, 20:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by U.S.W

lo all,
I read the review, and holy cow theres a lot of info to take in, and it is really well constructed, in all, but it didn't help me very much. It really only works with the 9000 and the 8500. What about benchmarking it against other cards? Maybe from other brands or something so it is easier to get an understanding for what is out there?

Good job commenting about a review that's 11 months old.

Anonymous · 18-Dec-2003, 17:39

I just built a computer for my mom a few days ago. I was trying to decide between the 9000, 9200, and 9600SE and just went with the 9600SE. It's pretty damn cheap ($70) on pricewatch and it can play games for when my cousin comes up from west virginia.

Frankly I'm surprised ATI is still selling the 9000's and 9200's. The 9600SE just seems to be a much better bargain for the money.

Natoma · 18-Dec-2003, 17:40

Goddamnit forgot to log in. Last post was me.

13-Sep-2002, 08:36	#1
Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh... Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,947	Beyond3D ATI Radeon 9000 PRO Review While we've all been distracted by ATI's Radeon 9700 PRO ATI simultaniously launched the low end Radeon 9000 PRO. Today we'll take a look at the features and performance of this low end offering to see what it yeilds. Here's a snip from the review: "Even more so than Radeon 9700 PRO's R300 chip, the RV250 chip that powers Radeon 9000 PRO started making fleeting appearances some time ago causing a confusion of rumours and speculation. It long since been known that RV250 would be on the .15m silicon process the same as R300 and Radeon 8500's R200 before it, however a mix of reports indicating higher speeds and performance, more integration than 8500 whilst still being a low end part. More integration and performance on the same process didn't seem to add up to a lower costing chip." Read the full review here. __________________ Expand. Accelerate. Dominate. Tweet Tweet!

13-Sep-2002, 10:34	#3
mat Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 321	page 6 and 7 are identical (SS OpenGL) Edit: hmm.. SSam is page 11, dont know what i'Ve seen before (maybe i should'nt post so early ) __________________ Get Firefox

13-Sep-2002, 14:40	#6
Saem Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,532	Could it be that it's adapting the sampling pattern? __________________ Regards.

13-Sep-2002, 17:32	#7
Anonymous Senior Member Join Date: May 1978 Posts: 3,263	review? and the overclock test?? good review 8)

24-Sep-2002, 22:31	#13
Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh... Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,947	OK. AFAIK, 9000 has no hardware support for TRUFORM, thats why is not mentioned. I believe they may be doing some driver emulation at some point though. I believe the UT 2003 demo does have TRUFORM support but you need to alter some config file settings as it not in the main menu options - do a search for it on the forum. __________________ Expand. Accelerate. Dominate. Tweet Tweet!

13-Sep-2002, 14:39	#5
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Nice job Dave! One question on AA: Based on the 2X shot, I would not say that it is ordered grid. (Both the near Horizontal and near-vertical lines show AA.) Based on the "sample positions", (2X more dots in the vertical direction), it does look like 2X sampling in the vertical direction. But the edges on the image say otherwise. Maybe Basic can provide some other explanation?

13-Sep-2002, 19:48	#8
GetStuff Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 67	RV250 has a 10 bit dac? http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/...page=page2.inc

14-Sep-2002, 18:14	#9
Jima13 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: La Grande, Oregon Posts: 97	I noticed Essential Computers have the 128mb version> http://www.essencompu.com/nupplysingar.asp?ID=2469 < would you expect the performance difference to be about the same as the 8500 64/128?

15-Sep-2002, 07:45	#10
Pete Moderate Nuisance Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 4,653	Dave, forgot to add my thanks for an excellent review (taking good things for granted). I especially liked the processor comparisons. Thanks.

24-Sep-2002, 22:07	#12
up Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NL/D Posts: 52	Thanx! But i've got one question about Truform! Is it really worthless? You don't even mention it... I wonder for the 'real' UT2003 (demo has no settings for it) and hope truform matters! Obviously, the engine can't build smooth enough edges!

24-Sep-2002, 23:25	#14
up Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NL/D Posts: 52	Dave, you're right about the dropped HW-truform, i know. Ati self mentions nothing about it either. It's fading out... Check ati's specs for the 9000 and 9700: Trueform is gone... not listed in the featurelist. 9700: http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/index.html 9000: http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/index.html I know about the demo-tweaks, but wait for the final release anyway. But what card to get is damed difficult! I was impressed by the smooth truform-edges in e.g. CS - great! AA isn't that important for me with 1068x768 up, but that ugly edges are still present in all the impressive screenshots from D3 and UT2k3 etc., dispite the high polygones! FUR e.g. could cover that, but that seems not to be used in UT2k3.

24-Sep-2002, 23:58	#15
Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh... Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,947	TRUFORM is most definitly in 9700, and it been extented on : http://www.beyond3d.com/reviews/ati/...page=page2.inc __________________ Expand. Accelerate. Dominate. Tweet Tweet!

25-Sep-2002, 00:33	#16
up Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: NL/D Posts: 52	BTW, the ATI Radeon 9700 PRO review is also great, Dave! Anyway, isn't it strange, that Truform 2.0 is not on the 9700-'front'page http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/index.html , but 'hidden' in the specs-page http://mirror.ati.com/products/pc/ra...pro/specs.html Some 9000-cardmakers are simply confusing: http://www.cptech.com.tw/powercolor/...=R9000PRO128MB BTW, Powercolor has a 9000 pci http://www.cptech.com.tw/powercolor/web/product.asp just checked a few sites...

24-Nov-2002, 22:47	#17
Anonymous Senior Member Join Date: May 1978 Posts: 3,263	Quick and simple question, which one should i get, the 8500LE 123 or the 9000 pro 128? Nice review!!! :P

17-Jan-2003, 19:01	#18
Anonymous Senior Member Join Date: May 1978 Posts: 3,263	yeah i've heard that the 8500 is better for gaming that true? 8500 is so much more expeneisve tho.. dunno what to do... i hope the 9000 isn't like some crappy riva tnt2 card where it will only last u a lil while :/ :P :P :P

17-Jan-2003, 20:08	#19
Tagrineth SNAKES... ON A PLANE Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Sunny (boring) Florida Posts: 2,512	Yes, the 8500 is better, in fact ATi themselves acknowledged that and have relabeled it '9100' and are selling off the remaining massive R200 inventory as such. __________________ For Great Justice Move Every 'Zig'

17-Jan-2003, 20:53	#20
Basic Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Linköping, Sweden Posts: 846	Joe: Late answer, but I hadn't read this thread. I've seen it before, and I think I've commented it not too long ago ... <searching> ... hehe, just 8 hours after your post I mentioned it in a different thread. It's probably easier to do jittered grid for geometry samples than for texture samples, and the jittered grid is most needed for edges. So it seems they did it half way, jittered grid for geometry (edges), and ordered grid for textures. It's not a 45º rotated grid though, since the "steps" are uneven.

17-Jan-2003, 21:10	#21
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Thanks, Basic!

13-Dec-2003, 11:37	#22
Anonymous Senior Member Join Date: May 1978 Posts: 3,263	which is better lo all, I read the review, and holy cow theres a lot of info to take in, and it is really well constructed, in all, but it didn't help me very much. It really only works with the 9000 and the 8500. What about benchmarking it against other cards? Maybe from other brands or something so it is easier to get an understanding for what is out there?

18-Dec-2003, 17:39	#24
Anonymous Senior Member Join Date: May 1978 Posts: 3,263	I just built a computer for my mom a few days ago. I was trying to decide between the 9000, 9200, and 9600SE and just went with the 9600SE. It's pretty damn cheap ($70) on pricewatch and it can play games for when my cousin comes up from west virginia. Frankly I'm surprised ATI is still selling the 9000's and 9200's. The 9600SE just seems to be a much better bargain for the money.

18-Dec-2003, 17:40	#25
Natoma The Wii is mine! Oh, and PS3 too Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 1,913	Goddamnit forgot to log in. Last post was me. __________________ "We must scrupulously guard the civil rights and civil liberties of all citizens, whatever their background. We must remember that any oppression, any injustice, any hatred, is a wedge designed to attack our civilization." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
ATI Extends Lead in Integrated Graphics with RADEON 9100 PRO	Dave Baumann	Press Releases	0	04-May-2004 16:37
ATI Ships RADEON 9800 PRO, Fulfills Delivery Promise	Dave Baumann	Press Releases	10	09-Apr-2003 22:13
ATI Radeon 9800 PRO Review	Dave Baumann	Beyond3D News	62	27-Mar-2003 02:17
ATI unleashes MOBILITY RADEON 9000	Dave Baumann	Press Releases	4	01-Sep-2002 23:10
Beyond 3D ATI Radeon 9700 PRO Review	Dave Baumann	Beyond3D News	51	22-Aug-2002 15:38

Beyond3D Forum

Welcome, Unregistered.