[Quitch]

My GF is quite the Warcraft III player, but she's forced to use some god awful old laggy machine for gaming... she's not using my baby

So, for christmas I'm putting together something that will play Warcraft III at gorgeous settings, while allowing for future games at a reasonable price (i.e. RTS doesn't tend to be that demanding, and settings can be turned down).

I'm intending to base it around a low end AMD64 (2800) with approximately 512MB RAM. Now, each time I buy a PC I have to relearn the hardware market, but I'm hoping to cheat this time.

1. Do AMD boards also do dual channel memory?

2. What's the FSB on a AMD64?

3. Is there any good integrated sound for this socket? IIRC, don't AMD64s have either a VIA or nVidia 3rd gen chipset, and didn't the 3rd gen not have SoundStorm?

Finally, a bit off-topic

4. SoundStorm was good for your CPU usage, though its benefits were only supposed to manifest themselves through the digital port... now, was that the CPU benefits only, or did this also overcome the limitation of the cacky codec?

[phenix]

Originally Posted by Quitch

My GF is quite the Warcraft III player, but she's forced to use some god awful old laggy machine for gaming... she's not using my baby

So, for christmas I'm putting together something that will play Warcraft III at gorgeous settings, while allowing for future games at a reasonable price (i.e. RTS doesn't tend to be that demanding, and settings can be turned down).

I'm intending to base it around a low end AMD64 (2800) with approximately 512MB RAM. Now, each time I buy a PC I have to relearn the hardware market, but I'm hoping to cheat this time.

1. Do AMD boards also do dual channel memory?

2. What's the FSB on a AMD64?

3. Is there any good integrated sound for this socket? IIRC, don't AMD64s have either a VIA or nVidia 3rd gen chipset, and didn't the 3rd gen not have SoundStorm?

Finally, a bit off-topic

4. SoundStorm was good for your CPU usage, though its benefits were only supposed to manifest themselves through the digital port... now, was that the CPU benefits only, or did this also overcome the limitation of the cacky codec?

1. Only socket 939 boards are dual channel. Socket754 boards are single channel. The CPU you are planning to buy (A64 2800+) is only for socket 754. Dual channel CPUs start from 3000+ and higher.

2. 400 MHz

3. Most Athlon boards have on board sound through AC3 codec but neither Nvidia's nor Via's cards have integrated APU in their chipset. So no hardware acceleration for sound anymore. At least for Athlon64 boards.

4. To my knowledge nearly all of the Nforce2/MCP-T (so called soundstorm) boards use cheap low quality AC3 codec solutions. That's why none of them are really fullfilling the minimum requirements of being true Soundstrom boards.

[Quitch]

All AMB64s have an FSB of 400?? Isn't that a bit limiting? So, dual channel for a standard AMD64 isn't something I'd need regardless then?

[arjan de lumens]

Originally Posted by Quitch

All AMB64s have an FSB of 400?? Isn't that a bit limiting? So, dual channel for a standard AMD64 isn't something I'd need regardless then?

AMD64 processors have a built-in memory controller, so memory is accessed directly by the processor rather than across an FSB. As such, FSB speed is irrelevant for the bandwidth or performance of the AMD64 processors. Besides, the "FSB" of AMD64 processors is called Hypertransport and runs at much, more than 400 MHz, more like 800 to 1000 MHz (DDR, with 2 transfers per clock too).

[Tim]

Originally Posted by Quitch

1. Do AMD boards also do dual channel memory?

Only the socket 939 ones, socket 754 is single channel.

2. What's the FSB on a AMD64?

A64s does not have a FSB in the classic sence as the memory controler is ondie. A64s have a DDR400 memory interface (single or dual channel) and a 2GHz (2 x 1GHz) point to point connection for IO.

3. Is there any good integrated sound for this socket? IIRC, don't AMD64s have either a VIA or nVidia 3rd gen chipset, and didn't the 3rd gen not have SoundStorm?

There are no hardware accelrated integrated sound only standard AC97, some motherboards are going to have HD-audio but still no hardware accelration.

[Saem]

I thought NForce boards would have HW accelerated sound.

Personally, I find the CPU power and fill rate are key for good RTS performance.

[phenix]

Originally Posted by arjan de lumens

AMD64 processors have a built-in memory controller, so memory is accessed directly by the processor rather than across an FSB. As such, FSB speed is irrelevant for the bandwidth or performance of the AMD64 processors. Besides, the "FSB" of AMD64 processors is called Hypertransport and runs at much, more than 400 MHz, more like 800 to 1000 MHz (DDR, with 2 transfers per clock too).

AFAIK Hyprtransport is the link connecting multiple CPU's to each other and CPU to northbridge. The link between CPU and memory is still called FSB and it is 400MHz. In single channel mode it is 64bit wide yielding 3.2GB/s bandwith, in dual channel it is 128bit wide yielding 6.4GB/s. Because of the very efficient onboard memory controller the performance difference is not 100% between dual and single channel modes. They have however 5-10% overall performance difference in memory bandwith sensitive situations.

[Dr. Ffreeze]

phenix,

The link between CPU and memory is still called FSB and it is 400MHz.

I think that can be debated. Some Intel P4s have a 1066 FSB. That is not the speed of the CPU to memory.

[phenix]

Originally Posted by Dr. Ffreeze

phenix,

I think that can be debated. Some Intel P4s have a 1066 FSB. That is not the speed of the CPU to memory.

Sorry. I didn't mean that FSB is 400MHz by definition. Of course the bus can be in different speeds. I just meant the bus between an Athlon64 CPU and DDR memory is 400MHz.

[chavvdarrr]

A week ago I built similar system for a friend of mine:
A64 2800+ and Zalman AlCu 7000 for cooler (noiseless!)
512MB DDR400
GB Radeon 9550 128MB
GB K8N
Good speed, reasonable price....

[Vortigern_red]

Sorry. I didn't mean that FSB is 400MHz by definition. Of course the bus can be in different speeds. I just meant the bus between an Athlon64 CPU and DDR memory is 400MHz.

I think you are confusing what the FSB is. My understanding is that the FSB is the link between the CPU and the Northbridge which has traditionally contained the memory controller. In the A64 the link between the CPU and the memory controller is within the CPU, so it has no traditional FSB.

The memory controller then talks to the RAM at whatever speed you have set in the BIOS, obviously within the limitations of your RAM, Just like in a traditional system your RAM and FSB can be two different speeds. For instance with an P4 with a 200MHz (QDR) FSB you could run DDR266, it would obviously effect performance but iyour FSB would still be running at 200 (QDR).

The "FSB" speed that you adjust in the BIOS of an A64 motherboard is just appears to be a base clock that all the other HT links ect take thier timing from.

[phenix]

Originally Posted by Vortigern_red

I think you are confusing what the FSB is. My understanding is that the FSB is the link between the CPU and the Northbridge which has traditionally contained the memory controller. In the A64 the link between the CPU and the memory controller is within the CPU, so it has no traditional FSB.

The memory controller then talks to the RAM at whatever speed you have set in the BIOS, obviously within the limitations of your RAM, Just like in a traditional system your RAM and FSB can be two different speeds. For instance with an P4 with a 200MHz (QDR) FSB you could run DDR266, it would obviously effect performance but iyour FSB would still be running at 200 (QDR).

The "FSB" speed that you adjust in the BIOS of an A64 motherboard is just appears to be a base clock that all the other HT links ect take thier timing from.

OK now I get it. So in Athlon 64 architecture the traditional FSB as we know it is divided to a memory access link and a hypertransport link which connects northbridge to CPU.
It is a bit confusing really. So which frequancies change when you overclock an Athlon64 CPU? Memory access frequency or hypertransport frequency?

[Vortigern_red]

Its sort of like this:

Trad CPU---------------------Northbridge----------------------RAM
                   FSB                            Mem Bus

  "FSB"
A64--Memory Controller----------------------RAM
   ¦                            Mem Bus
   ¦
   ¦ Hypertransport link
   ¦
   ¦
 Other traditional Northbridge Functions

I think the above shows it sort of correctly, as you can see the distance on my diagram between the A64 and its memory controller is much less than the traditional CPU and its Northbridge in order to show how it is physically closer in real life and how that effects the latency. Of course the "FSB" between the A64 and its memory controller is much faster than a traditional FSB as its all on one die.

The thing with the overclocking the "FSB" on any CPU is that really you are overclocking a "clock" on which all other busses take their timings (except where the PCI and AGP busses are locked)

The clock on an A64 is 200MHz, the PCI bus takes that figure and divides it by 6, the AGP bus divides it by 3, an A64 3000+ (skt 754) multiplys it by 10. the memory (DDR400) takes it as it is,1:1, 200Mhz (DDR) ect, ect. This is the same really as a trad CPU but we always refer to overclocking the FSB, I presume, because the clock in this case is in fact the FSB clock and all other busses take their clock from this.

So when you overclock an A64 you increase the speed of every bus in the system that takes its speed from the "clock", just like a P4, that includes the RAM*. Of course motherboards with locked PCI and AGP busses do not overclock these busses. (might be a seperate clock? Might be fancier dividers? not sure)


*The RAM might not take this speed directly but actually divide the Clock speed of the CPU (which is based on the "clock").

EDITS: Loads to fix my diagram. Now in lovely code boxes

[phenix]

Originally Posted by Vortigern_red

Its sort of like this:

Trad CPU---------------------Northbridge----------------------RAM
                   FSB                            Mem Bus

  "FSB"
A64--Memory Controller----------------------RAM
   ¦                            Mem Bus
   ¦
   ¦ Hypertransport link
   ¦
   ¦
 Other traditional Northbridge Functions

I think the above shows it sort of correctly, as you can see the distance on my diagram between the A64 and its memory controller is much less than the traditional CPU and its Northbridge in order to show how it is physically closer in real life and how that effects the latency. Of course the "FSB" between the A64 and its memory controller is much faster than a traditional FSB as its all on one die.

The thing with the overclocking the "FSB" on any CPU is that really you are overclocking a "clock" on which all other busses take their timings (except where the PCI and AGP busses are locked)

The clock on an A64 is 200MHz, the PCI bus takes that figure and divides it by 6, the AGP bus divides it by 3, an A64 3000+ (skt 754) multiplys it by 10. the memory (DDR400) takes it as it is,1:1, 200Mhz (DDR) ect, ect. This is the same really as a trad CPU but we always refer to overclocking the FSB, I presume, because the clock in this case is in fact the FSB clock and all other busses take their clock from this.

So when you overclock an A64 you increase the speed of every bus in the system that takes its speed from the "clock", just like a P4, that includes the RAM*. Of course motherboards with locked PCI and AGP busses do not overclock these busses. (might be a seperate clock? Might be fancier dividers? not sure)


*The RAM might not take this speed directly but actually divide the Clock speed of the CPU (which is based on the "clock").

EDITS: Loads to fix my diagram. Now in lovely code boxes

Makes sense. It is exactly how I used to imagine except the confusion with FSB nomenclature.

[Vortigern_red]

1. Do AMD boards also do dual channel memory?

As others have said, only SKT939 does Dual channel. It must be said however that the A64 does not suffer to the same extent with single channel RAM as the P4. AMDs number scheme puts dual channel at about a similar advantage to a 10% core clock increase. Hence A64 3000+ S754 Single channel runs at 2.0Ghz whereas the A64 3000+ S939 Dual channel runs at 1.8Ghz. S939 will have more future CPUs released for it but costs a bit more at this time.

2. What's the FSB on a AMD64?

Again as others have stated the FSB on an A64 does not really exist, if you are concerned about memory performance then the bus between the CPU/memory controller and the RAM runs at the same speed as the RAM, 3.2 for single channel and 6.4 for dual DDR 400. The Hypertransport link for the other traditional Northbridge functions runs much faster than it probably needs to when you bear in mind no RAM access actually make use of it!

Is there any good integrated sound for this socket? IIRC, don't AMD64s have either a VIA or nVidia 3rd gen chipset, and didn't the 3rd gen not have SoundStorm?

No soundstorm and pretty much no decent onboard sound either AFAIK. Nobody has released a Via Envy24 based A64 motherboard have they?

4. SoundStorm was good for your CPU usage, though its benefits were only supposed to manifest themselves through the digital port... now, was that the CPU benefits only, or did this also overcome the limitation of the cacky codec?

I'm not sure that the CPU benefits of the MCP-T were only available via the digital out, I think you got those over analogue as well, the advantage of the Digital out was, as you put it, bypassing the "cacky codec" and of course the DD encoding.

In all I would look at the price of an A64 2800+ and the S754 board and look at the difference between that at a S939 3000+ and board, (both run at 1.8 ). And decide whether I thought the extra cost was worth the "future proofing" of the S939.

EDIT: Unintentional 8). where I meant to write 8 )

[Jimmers]

Cheap Gaming Machine:

AMD Sempron 3100+ OC'd to around 3400+ speeds. See here.
Mobo with nForce3 250 chipset
512MB RAM
Any cheap video card