Beyond3D Forum

Joe DeFuria · 05-Aug-2002, 19:25

OK...so now I'm moved in (not fully unpacked....) to the new house and broadband internet access (cable modem connected to ethernet port on the PC.)

Within the next few months, I'll be purchasing a second PC and want to create a home network. In the coming years, I epxect to add perhaps 3 more PCs to the network.

Running actual Ethernet cable right now is not an option. If I built the house myself, I would have wired it, but alas.....maybe in the future.

So, it seems my options are one of the (several?) wireless solutions, or a "phone line" network. Location wise, I don't think a phone line network would be a problem...all of the places I can think of where I might want to put a PC have access to a near-by phone jack.

I have little experience in this sort of thing....so my first question is what sort of equipment will I need? I'd like to avoid using "my PC" as the hub / switch / router for all network traffic in the house.

Can anyone describe what my set-up would end up looking like? For example: Cable modem to wireless hub, and then each PC has a wireless PCI card installed. Anyone recommend (or caution against) certain wireless technologies or products?

Do wireless networks intorduce high latency that's not suitable for on-line action gaming?

Ty · 05-Aug-2002, 19:35

Afaik, your example is correct. Cable Modem -> (Wireless) Router -> PCs. Now I have 'heard' that wireless networks MAY interfere with certain phones (2.4 range) but I haven't had any direct experience myself as I am using regular ethernet cable myself. Good luck!

Joe DeFuria · 05-Aug-2002, 19:43

Ack...just my luck I have two 2.4 Ghz wireless phone in use at the house. I guess where-ever I buy the product from I should look into their return policy.

I presume I can get something like this:

http://www.netgear.com/product_view....=12&zrp=99

And directly connect my PC via ethernet cable, and then purchase wireless network cards for additional PCs.

I see there are some 5.0 Ghz wireless routers too....perhaps they would have a lesser chance of interfering with cordless phones? (I would hate to pay the premium to avoid interference....as the extra bandwidth provided by 5.0 Ghz units really isn't needed in the home...)

mat · 05-Aug-2002, 19:48

i've read that some wireless carss/router/whatever become quite slow when you enable encryption. (and without encryption everyone can join youe network)

dont know if thats already fixed.

but your example should be correct. i have a Cable modem --> Router (USR 8000) --> PCs
works great (but its not wireless)

Ty · 05-Aug-2002, 19:51

That should work. One possible consideration is printing. Some routers have built-in printer ports that allow any PC to print to it even though the other PCs are shut down. So basically the printer is connected to the router itself.

Joe DeFuria · 05-Aug-2002, 20:08

Thanks for the tip. I currently only have one printer (which does not have an ethernet port)...and it would be nice (though not completely necessary) for it to be accessible without having it attached to a powered up PC on the network.

I might end-up getting a second basic el'cheapo printer though...just to have one on each floor of the house. (Isn't really convenient to be surfing the web on the first floor, and then have to go upstairs to get a web-page print-out.) In that case, I'll likely just connect it directly to a PC and share it that way.

Saem · 05-Aug-2002, 20:13

I believe wireless has more latency than the phone line networks, besides I'm scared of all those "harmless" EMR floating around my house. Another reason why I refuse to use a cell phone.

Joe DeFuria · 05-Aug-2002, 22:34

Well, I'm not too worried about EMR, but I am concerned about the "reliability", performance, and possible interferrence issues with wireless.

With that in mind, I've pretty much decided to go with 10Mbit phone line networking.

I've found two products that should suit my needs, one from NetGear, and one from Linksys.

http://www.netgear.com/pdf_docs/rp334.pdf

ftp://ftp.linksys.com/pdf/hpro200ug.pdf

The net-gear one costs about about $100 more than the link-sys model, but offers a built-in 3 port ethernet switch. (The linksys model only has one ethernet port). Right now, I'm only planning on connecting "my" computer directly via ethernet, and the rest of the house via the phone line, so I'll probably go with the linksys model. (I can always add a switch or router to the link-sys model later if need be...)

Ty · 05-Aug-2002, 23:00

Not to throw a kink in your plans but the idea of being able to take a net-connected laptop out in the backyard to enjoy surfing the web and the outdoors simultaneously should not be discounted.

Saem · 05-Aug-2002, 23:00

Hrm, 10 Mb. I though PNA was up to 12Mb.

AzBat · 05-Aug-2002, 23:13

Hey Joe!

Glad to see you're back, but you should have asked me about networking.

I setup 2 of my dad's offices for it. The first office didn't have any Ethernet jacks in the wall, so I installed it myself even though I had never done it before. First, I bought a box of 100ft CAT5 cable, Ethernet crimping tool and Ethernet crimping connects from CompUSA. Then went to a local electric supply store for some electrical boxes, Ethernet jack plates and receptacles. I cut out holes in the sheetrock for all the boxes next my machines and one to next to the place I wanted my hub. Next I went up in the attic and ran one end of each cable down the walls to all the machines I wanted to connect to. The other end went down a wall where I wanted to connect them to the hub. Connected the cables to the receptacles and screwed on the plates. Presto! I now had a built-in network.

The rest of the cable was used to connect the computers to the wall. That's where the crimping tool was used. Sounds like a lot of work, but in the end it was well worth it. You could just save yourself some hard work by just running the cables from each machine to your centrally located hub just along the walls doors, but if you have a 2-story house you might be tripping on cables on your way down the stairs.

As for my second network job, it was a "brand new built for us" building. We had the phone contractor install all the network jacks when they were building it. Man, oh, man was I glad. Didn't see the need for me to have to do it all over again.

All the cables from the jacks all came out at our phone system mounted on a wall in back. I just mounted our hub on the wall, connected wires from the jacks to the hub and it was done. I left enough room on the wall to mount any future hubs, routers, modems, etc. Good thing I did. About 4.5 months after we moved in we subscribed to a cable modem. When I looked for a router I wanted to get one made by the same company that made our 10/100 8-port hub, Netgear. Bad thing was Netgear Cable/DSL routers at the time were more expensive than some of the ones we had looked at. So I went to Best Buy and picked up a Linksys Cable/DSL router with 1-port. I didn't need 8-ports as I already had a hub. I connected the cable modem to the router and then connected the router to the Uplink port on the hub. Everything worked like a charm! I had a few problems initially, but that was mainly due to me learning as I was going.

What does all that mean to you? Well, I think it means that if you have the money and you plan on buying just a Cable/DSL router, then I would go for one that has a 8-port hub/switch already included. After that and you still have enough money left I would then try wireless. Look at what I found at Buy.com...

This is the one I bought, costs $55.64 now...
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...49719&loc=7074

Linksys Wireless 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $141.07
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...273558&loc=219

Linksys 8-port Cable/DSL Router for $116.95
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...261598&loc=419

Linksys 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $69.82
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...35958&loc=7074

Netgear Wireless 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $117.95
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...7189&loc=14683

Netgear 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $69.06($10 mail-in rebate available)
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...2411&loc=12254

Netgear 8-port Cable/DSL Router with VPN Firewall for $134.95
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...0018&loc=12254

Netgear 3-port Cable/DSL Phoneline Router for $288.95
http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...0884&loc=12254

As you can see, phoneline is not an option. Go Ethernet, cabled or wireless. If you go cabled you could save yourself some money, though you might create some problems in having to run the cables in the walls or along them. The wireless would be your best bet, but it's costs may be expensive. Remember you still have to by NICs. Standard NICs are much cheaper than wireless NICs. As for who to go with Linksys or Netgear, after my experience with Linksys I really like them. Although I'm not sure if they are better or worse than Netgear. The one thing I noticed was that enclosures are small and lightweight due to the plastic. Netgear on the other hand are slightly larger and are made out of metal(very nice). Plus they could be mounted on a wall very easily(I liked this a lot). The Linksys router I bought would only set on a desk, though it possibly could be set up vertically. However, in order for me to to mount it vertically on a wall I had to use some long zip ties that I strapped to it and stapled it to the wall. It totally works though!

Well, I hope this helps. Good luck with the network and the unpacking!

Tommy McClain

Dave Baumann · 06-Aug-2002, 00:03

You may want to consider an SMC Barricade:

http://www.smc.com/index.cfm?sec=Pro...rod=258&site=c

Joe DeFuria · 06-Aug-2002, 14:11

Hi Tommy!

Well, I don't really know if I can run the cable myself. Running it to the "upstairs" rooms should be a problem as I can get to the attic and should be able to drop line pretty easily from there.

However, we may want to have a couple access points for the first floor as well. And I'm guessing that getting the lines run down to there will be a problem.

The wife would not stand for having cables "outside" the walls...running on the floor, around doors, etc. So that option is out.

I might try and see if I can run the ethernet cabling myself to the first floor. If that's a no go, I'll probably go with the phone line network. MY machine will still be directly on ethernet....who cares if the wife's and kid's machines don't have quite the same bandwidth.

Joe DeFuria · 06-Aug-2002, 16:21

Some more basic questions on networking....

If I decide to go the ethernet wiring route...it appears that I would want to have a total of 10 ports. I do not plan on having a cetralized file server of any sort...I just want to be able to share files between PCs, be able to share printers, and have broadband access to all ports.

Of course, the internet gateway routers I've looked at from Linksys and Netgear support a max of 8 built-in ports. So if I want to wire 10 devices, I'll need an additional device - switch or hub.

So I guess I have a couple options: get the internet gateway with one port, and connect it to a 16 port switch / hub , or get an 8 port gateway and connect one port to an 8 port switch / hub . "Graphically:"

Cable Modem---->1 port Gateway------>16 port switch / hub --->16 ports

or

Cable Modem---->8 port Gateway------>8 port switch / hub --->8 ports
..................................|------->7 ports

Either case would provide me with more than 10 ports to wire up. Is there any practical reason to choose one configuration over another? I would tend to think the first option is "cleaner", since all connected devices will hang off of one switch/hub, rather than have some devices hanging off of the gateway, and others off of the switch/rub.

The next question is, "switch" or "hub". What's the difference in practical terms? And finally, what are the practical limits for the category 5 ethernet cable lengths (or does it vary depending on the specific switch hub used?)

Dave Baumann · 06-Aug-2002, 16:27

Quote:

If I decide to go the ethernet wiring route...it appears that I would want to have a total of 10 ports. I do not plan on having a cetralized file server of any sort...I just want to be able to share files between PCs, be able to share printers, and have broadband access to all ports.

Have you really thought that through? I know that that was my initial plan and now I’m regretting it – the more I go along the more I think I want a server.

With a smaller server based on something like an Nforce2 platform (or anything with dual network ports) this can act as the DSL router, firewall, printserver and have a constant pool of files available to all PC’s (rather than having to run around making sure each one is on).

Joe DeFuria · 06-Aug-2002, 16:56

No, I haven't really thought it through.

Can you describe the difference in hardware then required? If I bought a "sever" PC, I would then have something like this:

Cable Modem---->PC Server----> 16 port Switch / Router---->

Then, I would purchase software for the server to provide the internet gateway/firewall protection, etc. If I installed Windows on the server, would I need XP Professional, or could I use Home Version? (I know everyone will suggest Linux for the server, but I really don't want to take the time to "learn" it....too many things to do with the new house as it is.)

Although the central server set-up would be more flexible, I'm not sure if the extra cost would be worth it. I pretty much keep my own PC on full-time anyway, so I would use that as the central "depository" for any shared files. Haven't thought about printing too much, other than having one printer on each floor. The "Quality" printer would be attached to my PC which will always be on for printing pictures, etc. I'd buy a cheap-o printer for the ground floor just for printing out internet text and stuff.

MfA · 06-Aug-2002, 17:05

Hey Joe, heard of google yet? ;)

Hub's broadcast everything and rely on ethernet collision detection for arbitration ... dont use em. Switches/switching-hubs have their own high speed backbone and discover MAC address to port mappings and only send traffic to the appropriate ports.

The disadvantage of putting one switch on a port on another is that sometimes the single connection between them could be a bottleneck if a lot of computers are active at the same time ... some can use port bundling to lessen that problem, but looking at pricewatch going for a simple unmanaged 16 port switch would only be fractionally more expensive than 2 8 port ones.

Max cable length is something like 100 m (with hubs RTT also becomes an issue so things can become more complicated, just another good reason not to use em).

Dave Baumann · 06-Aug-2002, 17:07

Quote:

Can you describe the difference in hardware then required? If I bought a "sever" PC, I would then have something like this:

Cable Modem---->PC Server----> 16 port Switch / Router---->

Yeah that’s more or less what you have. The cable modem goes in on network port then other goes to the switch/hub (I’m not sure which you need – I can’t remember the different either)
; the Pc will then deal with the routing requests for the internet.

The point being is that the server PC does not need to be powerful – you can build it from old parts or you can go for something new (like the Nforce2 solution I suggested) and go for a small box option.

I don’t think you’ll have any trouble with running it off XP (although I’m not sure Home contains all the networking options) – when I was lodging my housemate had this setup with a Win98 system.

As for the firewall you can the just install some free windows firewall software (such as Zonealarm).

Joe DeFuria · 06-Aug-2002, 17:51

MfA,
Sure, I've heard of google....but people complain about signal-to-noise ratio around here!

Now, of course, you introduced the concept of "managed" vs. "unmanaged" switches, and with a quick look on Google

, it appears that managed switches don't make sense for super small networks like mine. Unmanaged ones would be just fine.

Assuming I don't go with the dedicated server route (haven't ruled that out though), then It looks like my set-up would be:

Cable-Modem ---> Firewall Router ---> 16 port Unmanaged Switch.

That look OK? I presume it doesn't matter if the firewall router has built-in switches or not...since I'm only using it for a single connection to the 16 port switch.

Is there anything in particular that I should definitely have for the firewall? (What types of protection I should definitely have?) .

Joe DeFuria · 06-Aug-2002, 18:09

So, for example, I can pair this firewall / router:

ftp://ftp.linksys.com/datasheet/befsx41ds.pdf

With any ol' unmanaged 16 port 10/100 ethernet switch, and I'd be good to go?

Dave Baumann · 06-Aug-2002, 18:11

Quote:

Is there anything in particular that I should definitely have for the firewall? (What types of protection I should definitely have?) .

If you are going for a router then just ensure the router has it built in - AFAIK most do these days and they are effective enought for a home network.

mat · 06-Aug-2002, 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe DeFuria

(I know everyone will suggest Linux for the server, but I really don't want to take the time to "learn" it....too many things to do with the new house as it is.)

i had a linux router ("Server") some time ago and it wasnt hard to config it (and i havent really used any Unix thing before). i run a 1-Disk Linux distro (no file server or something, just a basic router/firewall). i think it was called Coyote linusx or something like this.
it even had a Windows App to conifg it

but i switched to a real router (i hated the noise of the PC and it took a minute or so to boot from the floppy

with a nice Web page to config it.

AzBat · 06-Aug-2002, 18:44

Hey Joe,

Man, if I can run cabling, anybody can run cabling.

I was doing it in 90 degree weather in an attic that covered 3 businesses. Not 2 stories, but it was one hell of a climb on the outside of the building to get up there.

I agree that if you can't put it inside the walls it's not worth it. I'm having reservations on using the phoneline networking though. It's only 10Mbit and if you ever decided you want a faster network then you have to chuck that router and start over from scratch anyway. I would definitely look into the wireless Ethernet first. Eventually I may do this for my dad's office or even at home.

As for your ports, if you think you'll need 10 then go ahead and plan for it now instead of later. We don't have a centralized server here at the office. We're just doing peer-to-peer networking. I wanted to go with a server, but my dad didn't want to because of the location of the router and location of the machine that would have most of our files. Plus, I hadn't figured out all the networking stuff anyway. So it was best just to leave it as it was.

Since you're thinking of going with 16-port hub or switch then, you would only need a 1-port router, which is what I did(BEFSR11). This could give the you ability to place the hub/switch somewhere other than where the cable modem is installed. However, Dave and Mfa seem to be much more enlightened on the networking than myself. So if they suggest going with a server then I would consider it, but I'm still not totally sure it's necessary.

The main reason being that the built-in firewall capabilities of your router should be sufficient. If not you can always install a software firewall for the ultimate in protection. Linksys offers a built-in firewall and a great web interface with their routers(BEFSR11, BEFSR41, BEFSRU31), but they also offer integration with ZoneAlarm Pro and PC-cillan for additional protection. I've never installed them, since it's an extra purchase. I believe Linksys is offering them at 50% off but, you still have purchase licenses in 2, 4 or 8-packs.

Anyway, hopefully my experiences will help. I know that I didn't have any to guide myself, but it was a worthwhile experience nonetheless.

Give me a holler if you need any help once you start building it. I'm sure 2 heads are better than one.

Tommy McClain

pascal · 06-Aug-2002, 19:41

See this link: http://www.firewallguide.com/hardware.htm
Hope it helps.

Joe DeFuria · 06-Aug-2002, 20:55

Thanks for the advice and info Tommy...and the link Pascal!

It looks like Tommy's recommended Linksys BEFSR11 would be the best buy for me. About $60, and the 4 port version has gotten great reviews. (No one seems to review the one port version.) I'd like VPN passthrough (and this router seems to support it based on reviews), since I'd like to be able to hook up my work lap-top (which uses VPN) to connect to the office network.

However, one thing that baffles me a bit is whether this router is not only a NAT firewall, but also SPI. Every review lists is as NAT only, though the docs and faq indicate that "does stateful packet inspection." Not that it really matters, because a NAT firewall should be sufficient for my home...

05-Aug-2002, 19:25	#1
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Home Network OK...so now I'm moved in (not fully unpacked....) to the new house and broadband internet access (cable modem connected to ethernet port on the PC.) Within the next few months, I'll be purchasing a second PC and want to create a home network. In the coming years, I epxect to add perhaps 3 more PCs to the network. Running actual Ethernet cable right now is not an option. If I built the house myself, I would have wired it, but alas.....maybe in the future. So, it seems my options are one of the (several?) wireless solutions, or a "phone line" network. Location wise, I don't think a phone line network would be a problem...all of the places I can think of where I might want to put a PC have access to a near-by phone jack. I have little experience in this sort of thing....so my first question is what sort of equipment will I need? I'd like to avoid using "my PC" as the hub / switch / router for all network traffic in the house. Can anyone describe what my set-up would end up looking like? For example: Cable modem to wireless hub, and then each PC has a wireless PCI card installed. Anyone recommend (or caution against) certain wireless technologies or products? Do wireless networks intorduce high latency that's not suitable for on-line action gaming?

05-Aug-2002, 19:48	#4
mat Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 321	i've read that some wireless carss/router/whatever become quite slow when you enable encryption. (and without encryption everyone can join youe network) dont know if thats already fixed. but your example should be correct. i have a Cable modem --> Router (USR 8000) --> PCs works great (but its not wireless) __________________ Get Firefox

06-Aug-2002, 00:03	#12
Dave Baumann Gamerscore Wh... Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 12,947	You may want to consider an SMC Barricade: http://www.smc.com/index.cfm?sec=Pro...rod=258&site=c __________________ Expand. Accelerate. Dominate. Tweet Tweet!

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05-Aug-2002, 19:35	#2
Ty Roberta E. Lee Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,455	Afaik, your example is correct. Cable Modem -> (Wireless) Router -> PCs. Now I have 'heard' that wireless networks MAY interfere with certain phones (2.4 range) but I haven't had any direct experience myself as I am using regular ethernet cable myself. Good luck!

05-Aug-2002, 19:43	#3
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Ack...just my luck I have two 2.4 Ghz wireless phone in use at the house. I guess where-ever I buy the product from I should look into their return policy. I presume I can get something like this: http://www.netgear.com/product_view....=12&zrp=99 And directly connect my PC via ethernet cable, and then purchase wireless network cards for additional PCs. I see there are some 5.0 Ghz wireless routers too....perhaps they would have a lesser chance of interfering with cordless phones? (I would hate to pay the premium to avoid interference....as the extra bandwidth provided by 5.0 Ghz units really isn't needed in the home...)

05-Aug-2002, 19:51	#5
Ty Roberta E. Lee Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,455	That should work. One possible consideration is printing. Some routers have built-in printer ports that allow any PC to print to it even though the other PCs are shut down. So basically the printer is connected to the router itself.

05-Aug-2002, 20:08	#6
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Thanks for the tip. I currently only have one printer (which does not have an ethernet port)...and it would be nice (though not completely necessary) for it to be accessible without having it attached to a powered up PC on the network. I might end-up getting a second basic el'cheapo printer though...just to have one on each floor of the house. (Isn't really convenient to be surfing the web on the first floor, and then have to go upstairs to get a web-page print-out.) In that case, I'll likely just connect it directly to a PC and share it that way.

05-Aug-2002, 20:13	#7
Saem Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 1,532	I believe wireless has more latency than the phone line networks, besides I'm scared of all those "harmless" EMR floating around my house. Another reason why I refuse to use a cell phone.

05-Aug-2002, 22:34	#8
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Well, I'm not too worried about EMR, but I am concerned about the "reliability", performance, and possible interferrence issues with wireless. With that in mind, I've pretty much decided to go with 10Mbit phone line networking. I've found two products that should suit my needs, one from NetGear, and one from Linksys. http://www.netgear.com/pdf_docs/rp334.pdf ftp://ftp.linksys.com/pdf/hpro200ug.pdf The net-gear one costs about about $100 more than the link-sys model, but offers a built-in 3 port ethernet switch. (The linksys model only has one ethernet port). Right now, I'm only planning on connecting "my" computer directly via ethernet, and the rest of the house via the phone line, so I'll probably go with the linksys model. (I can always add a switch or router to the link-sys model later if need be...)

05-Aug-2002, 23:00	#9
Ty Roberta E. Lee Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 2,455	Not to throw a kink in your plans but the idea of being able to take a net-connected laptop out in the backyard to enjoy surfing the web and the outdoors simultaneously should not be discounted.

05-Aug-2002, 23:13	#11
AzBat Agent of the Bat Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Alma, AR Posts: 3,583	Hey Joe! Glad to see you're back, but you should have asked me about networking. I setup 2 of my dad's offices for it. The first office didn't have any Ethernet jacks in the wall, so I installed it myself even though I had never done it before. First, I bought a box of 100ft CAT5 cable, Ethernet crimping tool and Ethernet crimping connects from CompUSA. Then went to a local electric supply store for some electrical boxes, Ethernet jack plates and receptacles. I cut out holes in the sheetrock for all the boxes next my machines and one to next to the place I wanted my hub. Next I went up in the attic and ran one end of each cable down the walls to all the machines I wanted to connect to. The other end went down a wall where I wanted to connect them to the hub. Connected the cables to the receptacles and screwed on the plates. Presto! I now had a built-in network. The rest of the cable was used to connect the computers to the wall. That's where the crimping tool was used. Sounds like a lot of work, but in the end it was well worth it. You could just save yourself some hard work by just running the cables from each machine to your centrally located hub just along the walls doors, but if you have a 2-story house you might be tripping on cables on your way down the stairs. As for my second network job, it was a "brand new built for us" building. We had the phone contractor install all the network jacks when they were building it. Man, oh, man was I glad. Didn't see the need for me to have to do it all over again. All the cables from the jacks all came out at our phone system mounted on a wall in back. I just mounted our hub on the wall, connected wires from the jacks to the hub and it was done. I left enough room on the wall to mount any future hubs, routers, modems, etc. Good thing I did. About 4.5 months after we moved in we subscribed to a cable modem. When I looked for a router I wanted to get one made by the same company that made our 10/100 8-port hub, Netgear. Bad thing was Netgear Cable/DSL routers at the time were more expensive than some of the ones we had looked at. So I went to Best Buy and picked up a Linksys Cable/DSL router with 1-port. I didn't need 8-ports as I already had a hub. I connected the cable modem to the router and then connected the router to the Uplink port on the hub. Everything worked like a charm! I had a few problems initially, but that was mainly due to me learning as I was going. What does all that mean to you? Well, I think it means that if you have the money and you plan on buying just a Cable/DSL router, then I would go for one that has a 8-port hub/switch already included. After that and you still have enough money left I would then try wireless. Look at what I found at Buy.com... This is the one I bought, costs $55.64 now... http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...49719&loc=7074 Linksys Wireless 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $141.07 http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...273558&loc=219 Linksys 8-port Cable/DSL Router for $116.95 http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...261598&loc=419 Linksys 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $69.82 http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...35958&loc=7074 Netgear Wireless 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $117.95 http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...7189&loc=14683 Netgear 4-port Cable/DSL Router for $69.06($10 mail-in rebate available) http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...2411&loc=12254 Netgear 8-port Cable/DSL Router with VPN Firewall for $134.95 http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...0018&loc=12254 Netgear 3-port Cable/DSL Phoneline Router for $288.95 http://www.buy.com/retail/computers/...0884&loc=12254 As you can see, phoneline is not an option. Go Ethernet, cabled or wireless. If you go cabled you could save yourself some money, though you might create some problems in having to run the cables in the walls or along them. The wireless would be your best bet, but it's costs may be expensive. Remember you still have to by NICs. Standard NICs are much cheaper than wireless NICs. As for who to go with Linksys or Netgear, after my experience with Linksys I really like them. Although I'm not sure if they are better or worse than Netgear. The one thing I noticed was that enclosures are small and lightweight due to the plastic. Netgear on the other hand are slightly larger and are made out of metal(very nice). Plus they could be mounted on a wall very easily(I liked this a lot). The Linksys router I bought would only set on a desk, though it possibly could be set up vertically. However, in order for me to to mount it vertically on a wall I had to use some long zip ties that I strapped to it and stapled it to the wall. It totally works though! Well, I hope this helps. Good luck with the network and the unpacking! Tommy McClain

06-Aug-2002, 14:11	#13
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Hi Tommy! Well, I don't really know if I can run the cable myself. Running it to the "upstairs" rooms should be a problem as I can get to the attic and should be able to drop line pretty easily from there. However, we may want to have a couple access points for the first floor as well. And I'm guessing that getting the lines run down to there will be a problem. The wife would not stand for having cables "outside" the walls...running on the floor, around doors, etc. So that option is out. I might try and see if I can run the ethernet cabling myself to the first floor. If that's a no go, I'll probably go with the phone line network. MY machine will still be directly on ethernet....who cares if the wife's and kid's machines don't have quite the same bandwidth.

06-Aug-2002, 16:21	#14
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Some more basic questions on networking.... If I decide to go the ethernet wiring route...it appears that I would want to have a total of 10 ports. I do not plan on having a cetralized file server of any sort...I just want to be able to share files between PCs, be able to share printers, and have broadband access to all ports. Of course, the internet gateway routers I've looked at from Linksys and Netgear support a max of 8 built-in ports. So if I want to wire 10 devices, I'll need an additional device - switch or hub. So I guess I have a couple options: get the internet gateway with one port, and connect it to a 16 port switch / hub , or get an 8 port gateway and connect one port to an 8 port switch / hub . "Graphically:" Cable Modem---->1 port Gateway------>16 port switch / hub --->16 ports or Cable Modem---->8 port Gateway------>8 port switch / hub --->8 ports ..................................\|------->7 ports Either case would provide me with more than 10 ports to wire up. Is there any practical reason to choose one configuration over another? I would tend to think the first option is "cleaner", since all connected devices will hang off of one switch/hub, rather than have some devices hanging off of the gateway, and others off of the switch/rub. The next question is, "switch" or "hub". What's the difference in practical terms? And finally, what are the practical limits for the category 5 ethernet cable lengths (or does it vary depending on the specific switch hub used?)

06-Aug-2002, 16:56	#16
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	No, I haven't really thought it through. Can you describe the difference in hardware then required? If I bought a "sever" PC, I would then have something like this: Cable Modem---->PC Server----> 16 port Switch / Router----> Then, I would purchase software for the server to provide the internet gateway/firewall protection, etc. If I installed Windows on the server, would I need XP Professional, or could I use Home Version? (I know everyone will suggest Linux for the server, but I really don't want to take the time to "learn" it....too many things to do with the new house as it is.) Although the central server set-up would be more flexible, I'm not sure if the extra cost would be worth it. I pretty much keep my own PC on full-time anyway, so I would use that as the central "depository" for any shared files. Haven't thought about printing too much, other than having one printer on each floor. The "Quality" printer would be attached to my PC which will always be on for printing pictures, etc. I'd buy a cheap-o printer for the ground floor just for printing out internet text and stuff.

06-Aug-2002, 17:05	#17
MfA Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,221	Hey Joe, heard of google yet? ;) Hub's broadcast everything and rely on ethernet collision detection for arbitration ... dont use em. Switches/switching-hubs have their own high speed backbone and discover MAC address to port mappings and only send traffic to the appropriate ports. The disadvantage of putting one switch on a port on another is that sometimes the single connection between them could be a bottleneck if a lot of computers are active at the same time ... some can use port bundling to lessen that problem, but looking at pricewatch going for a simple unmanaged 16 port switch would only be fractionally more expensive than 2 8 port ones. Max cable length is something like 100 m (with hubs RTT also becomes an issue so things can become more complicated, just another good reason not to use em).

06-Aug-2002, 17:51	#19
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	MfA, Sure, I've heard of google....but people complain about signal-to-noise ratio around here! Now, of course, you introduced the concept of "managed" vs. "unmanaged" switches, and with a quick look on Google , it appears that managed switches don't make sense for super small networks like mine. Unmanaged ones would be just fine. Assuming I don't go with the dedicated server route (haven't ruled that out though), then It looks like my set-up would be: Cable-Modem ---> Firewall Router ---> 16 port Unmanaged Switch. That look OK? I presume it doesn't matter if the firewall router has built-in switches or not...since I'm only using it for a single connection to the 16 port switch. Is there anything in particular that I should definitely have for the firewall? (What types of protection I should definitely have?) .

06-Aug-2002, 18:09	#20
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	So, for example, I can pair this firewall / router: ftp://ftp.linksys.com/datasheet/befsx41ds.pdf With any ol' unmanaged 16 port 10/100 ethernet switch, and I'd be good to go?

06-Aug-2002, 18:44	#23
AzBat Agent of the Bat Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Alma, AR Posts: 3,583	Hey Joe, Man, if I can run cabling, anybody can run cabling. I was doing it in 90 degree weather in an attic that covered 3 businesses. Not 2 stories, but it was one hell of a climb on the outside of the building to get up there. I agree that if you can't put it inside the walls it's not worth it. I'm having reservations on using the phoneline networking though. It's only 10Mbit and if you ever decided you want a faster network then you have to chuck that router and start over from scratch anyway. I would definitely look into the wireless Ethernet first. Eventually I may do this for my dad's office or even at home. As for your ports, if you think you'll need 10 then go ahead and plan for it now instead of later. We don't have a centralized server here at the office. We're just doing peer-to-peer networking. I wanted to go with a server, but my dad didn't want to because of the location of the router and location of the machine that would have most of our files. Plus, I hadn't figured out all the networking stuff anyway. So it was best just to leave it as it was. Since you're thinking of going with 16-port hub or switch then, you would only need a 1-port router, which is what I did(BEFSR11). This could give the you ability to place the hub/switch somewhere other than where the cable modem is installed. However, Dave and Mfa seem to be much more enlightened on the networking than myself. So if they suggest going with a server then I would consider it, but I'm still not totally sure it's necessary. The main reason being that the built-in firewall capabilities of your router should be sufficient. If not you can always install a software firewall for the ultimate in protection. Linksys offers a built-in firewall and a great web interface with their routers(BEFSR11, BEFSR41, BEFSRU31), but they also offer integration with ZoneAlarm Pro and PC-cillan for additional protection. I've never installed them, since it's an extra purchase. I believe Linksys is offering them at 50% off but, you still have purchase licenses in 2, 4 or 8-packs. Anyway, hopefully my experiences will help. I know that I didn't have any to guide myself, but it was a worthwhile experience nonetheless. Give me a holler if you need any help once you start building it. I'm sure 2 heads are better than one. Tommy McClain

06-Aug-2002, 19:41	#24
pascal Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Brasil Posts: 1,790	See this link: http://www.firewallguide.com/hardware.htm Hope it helps.

06-Aug-2002, 20:55	#25
Joe DeFuria Regular Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,951	Thanks for the advice and info Tommy...and the link Pascal! It looks like Tommy's recommended Linksys BEFSR11 would be the best buy for me. About $60, and the 4 port version has gotten great reviews. (No one seems to review the one port version.) I'd like VPN passthrough (and this router seems to support it based on reviews), since I'd like to be able to hook up my work lap-top (which uses VPN) to connect to the office network. However, one thing that baffles me a bit is whether this router is not only a NAT firewall, but also SPI. Every review lists is as NAT only, though the docs and faq indicate that "does stateful packet inspection." Not that it really matters, because a NAT firewall should be sufficient for my home...

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