[RostokMcSpoons]

I'm rather tempted to replace my Radeon 9700np with something super spiffy in time for HL2 (and in the longer term especially DoD:Source and DoD2) and Doom3... and I'm tempted by the 6800GT, in preference to the X800Pro.

I've a few questions, but the most important one is:

Will a 6800GT work on the 250W power supply in my SN41G2 ?
Has anyone out there got one running in a Shuttle?

Currently I've got the standard stuff drawing power - a WD 120gb 8mb cache drive, a Samsung CD writer, half a gig of Crucial ddr333 ram and a Barton XP 2500. All non-overclocked.

<edit> easy to forget stuff you plug in that draws power too... there's an Alcatel USB ADSL modem, and a Logitech Mx700 mouse as well </edit>

Ok, if I've enough power... will the damned thing melt? I saw one review that mentioned it ran rather warm... is it warmer or cooler than a X800 Pro, and would I have a problem?


Now obviously my cpu ain't up to much - I'll be slotting in a 3000 chip and hopefully also changing to a gig of ram, but if I couldn't afford those - is the graphics upgrade worth bothering with or would I be too cpu-limited?
Please bear in mind I currently spend most of my time playing Day of Defeat (where sometimes the 9700 struggles), Halo and Ut2004 and I'd like to pick up Far Cry once I can get consistently playable framerates... but the thing I'm most concerned about is future performance in the next versions of DoD.

any thoughts would be appreciated

[ricercar]

Originally Posted by RostokMcSpoons

Will a 6800GT work on the 250W power supply in my SN41G2 ?

Probably not.

Originally Posted by RostokMcSpoons

will the damned thing melt?

Probably so.

I've had severe problems with both power inadequacy and heat buildup in a SN41G2 with a Barton 3000+, 1G system memory, and FX 5700U/5800U/5900U video cards. This experience may not apply directly to your 6800 plan, but you may want to know what I've seen. I'm looking at the ASUS 1-slot GeForce 6800 Ultra and an external 1RU 460W server PSU with my own plan.

POWER
5700U/5800U/5900U video cards don't get enough juice to perform with Shuttle's 200W SFF Achme PSU. In real-world terms, I have to play 3D games at 800x600 with a 5800U on the 200W PSU, or else the system bluescreens when 3D mode kicks in. If you have the newer 250W Achme SFF PSU your problems may be smaller than mine, but the likelyhood is that even a 250 PSU will still hold back a 6800 performance.

SN41G2 synthetic benchmarks are improved significantly (25%+) by upgrading the SFF 200W PSU to a regular Antec 350W PSU. The 350W PSU increased 3DMark01 from ~13K to ~17K, and 3DMark03 from ~4K to ~6K. This was seen across 5700U/5800U/5900U video cards. These cards improved Onionmarks by another 10% when I upgraded from the 350W to a 460W PSU, but the move from a 460W to a 550W PSU delivered inconclusive or negligable improvements.

HEAT
A SN41G2 SFF with closed case and a 5700U/5800U reaches 60°C in an non-airconditioned apartment in the summer. Last summer I overheated-to-failure (destroyed) both a 5800U and WD120G hard drive from heat failure before I wised up.

Part of my problem is the heat from DDRII RAMs on my 5700 and 5800 cards. Even watercooling the SFF (GlobalWin Silent Stream) the CPU temps reach 50°C when the case is closed. However, DDRII RAM problems won't apply to the DDR3 on the 6800 series.

SUMMARY
- My SFF never had power or heat problems with a Quadro 980 XGL, or other GeForce256/2/3/4 cards.
- Power and performance problems occurred with GeForce FX cards that require the extra molex connectors.
- Heat problems occurred with cards using DDRII RAMs.
- Acceptable performance with the SFF and GeForce FX cards requires an external PSU of at least 350W.

I've settled on a 1RU 460W PSU attached as a base to my SFF, and a 5700U dual-DVI until i can test the ASUS dual-DVI single slot 6800U.

[RostokMcSpoons]

Thanks very much for the detailed reply, Ricercar...

yes, I've actually got the 200w power supply, so it looks like I'm screwed with the 6800GT but I guess I can live in hope that the x800pro will work, as I've already seen pics of an x800 sitting in a Shuttle (though presumably it's one of the updated 250w versions... so it looks like I'll have to budget for that too)

Do any of the larger PSU's you've talked about actually fit inside the Shuttle case, or did you have to do major surgery on the chassis? Or are they 'brick' supplies.. I'm interested to hear, cos I must admit PSU's have never been high on my priorities.. until now

Now... if anyone *does* have an x800 sitting in their Shuttle, I'd like to hear from you!

[ThorstenATI]

For what it's worth, several people on our demo team including me use X800's in Shuttle systems with 250W PSUs on a daily basis. AFAIK we've even used Shuttles at the X800 launch event.

However, my CPU is a modest 2.2GHz P4. I think we have one with a 3GHz P4 though.

-Thorsten

[Alistair]

If you have a look at the Shuttle XPC forum over at Sudhian.com, you'll probably find someone who's tried whatever you want to do.

[davefb]

brother has a shuttle , it's an amd one not sure what sort but it's an xp2800+... his x800pro works okay though he did have to rearrange the power cables .

-dave-
*think* it's a 230/250watt psu . 1gb of ram, not sure of rest , will ask him 2morrow

[RostokMcSpoons]

I've checked, I've definitely got a 200w psu in mine, but I've heard it's possible to buy the 250w seperately... and it's supposed to be quieter too so I suppose if it's around the 30-40UKP price point it wouldn't be toooo painful to go for that, if that's what it takes

thanks again for the comments! glad I've got an upgrade path (even if it's not *quite* the one I wanted to take!)

I notice that HardOCP has a review of cpu scaling that did answer my question re: scalability... I will get some benefit in the games with lots of shaders, but I will need to go for the 3000 cpu if I want to see most of it.

edit>
Yeehah! (to coin a phrase)
I checked out the Sudhian forums and people there confirm that the 200W psu is actually fine with the X800Pro as it actually draws less power than a 9800pro! So that's me sorted. And there are people running X800-PE versions (though they all seem to have the 250w psu). I don't think my budget would stretch that far, and even a 3000 cpu probably wouldn't keep up with that monster of a card

[jvd]

I don't think you'll get away with the 6800gt . it runs as hot as a x800xt .

You might be able to get away with a x800pro or a 6800nu . If you go with the ati card and have a free pci slot too you can allways get the vga silencer which will take heat out of the question

[Dio]

I think that he's worried about the heat at a systemic level, so no amount of changing the video card cooling is likely to help there.

It is possible to mod a Shuttle to use an external 120mm fan (try pcw.co.uk, Gordon Laing wrote about it in the magazine) which gives much better airflow or less noise.

[Florin]

Interesting to hear your experiences with the Achme units. I reckon there is a possibility that you could order a replacement PS, considering the popularity of the Shuttles. Some of the recent models like my SN85G4 come with 240 Watt units from Enhance which are the same shape and size. Mine has been running a Gainward GF4 Ti4600 (which Gainward clocks higher than regular 4600s) reliably for quite some time and I'm eyeing a 6800GT or other upgrade at some point.

[jvd]

Originally Posted by Dio

I think that he's worried about the heat at a systemic level, so no amount of changing the video card cooling is likely to help there.

It is possible to mod a Shuttle to use an external 120mm fan (try pcw.co.uk, Gordon Laing wrote about it in the magazine) which gives much better airflow or less noise.

The vga silencer is set up so it takes the air in the case , blows it across the heatsink and then out through a pci slot .

Thus adding an exhaust fan . It should help greatly .
http://www.3dcool.com/?module=produc...ACVGASILENCER3

In my case with my 9700pro it lowered the case temps 4c and my cpu temp 1 c .

So it def helps with the cooling of the case

[RostokMcSpoons]

I can't fit a Cooler Card in my PCI slot - it's occupied with a Philips Seismic Edge sound card.

I got fed up with the built-in 'Soundstorm' sound breaking up once the system had warmed up. If that's been fixed then I could take the Philips card out, but I was under the impression the problem was most likely an overheating Southbridge chip? I don't know if anyone has fixed the distorted sound issue in a Shuttle case yet... I'll have to toddle off to Sudhian forums again and find out...

[jvd]

Originally Posted by RostokMcSpoons

I can't fit a Cooler Card in my PCI slot - it's occupied with a Philips Seismic Edge sound card.

I got fed up with the built-in 'Soundstorm' sound breaking up once the system had warmed up. If that's been fixed then I could take the Philips card out, but I was under the impression the problem was most likely an overheating Southbridge chip? I don't know if anyone has fixed the distorted sound issue in a Shuttle case yet... I'll have to toddle off to Sudhian forums again and find out...

i dunno. IF you think its a heat problem u can try

http://www.3dcool.com/?module=product&sku=ZMNB47J

or

http://www.3dcool.com/?module=product&sku=A1899

but i don't think your south bridge gets that hot .

have you tried the latest version of the sound storm drivers ?

[RostokMcSpoons]

To be honest I got a bit wary of the nVidia drivers... there was that one release which caused people to lose data off their HDD's (iirc) and since that point I've not really trusted them - so I'm using the (ancient) drivers provided by Shuttle. I did try to update just the sound drivers, but it didn't help so I backed that change out too.

Even now I notice that there's a roaring trade in Frankenstein nForce drivers, assembled from bits and bobs of various nVidia drivers - this does *not* inspire confidence!

Do the latest drivers fix the problem then?

[jvd]

i don't know , i don't have sound storm.

[oddfellow]

I have a Shuttle SN45G (nForce2 ultra400) with a Barton 3200+, 512mb DDR400, DVD+-r/rw, 60GB HD AND a GeForceFX 5900XT running overclocked@ 5950 speed.

I have no power problems and no heat problems. 8)

My shuttle uses the Ehance 200W PSU which is supposed to be a huge improvement on the Acme units.
I haven't had any problems with my standard unit, but if you look around, you can find 350W PSU that will fit. You need to search for 1U server units (and also check the dimensions as length can vary). They can be pricey but not hedeously so.

Also, instead of a floppy drive, I have a HD cooler fitted under my HD, which I have running @ 7volts to keep the noise levels down. The fans on this cooler sit right above the chipset, so it also helps to cool the north bridge by moving air over the heatsink. I'm certain that the HD cooler also helps to cool the rest of the system by simply moving air around. As you know, the main 80mm fan in an XPC doesn't actually move much air when the system is idle, so the cooler's 2 40mm fans help to keep the air inside the case circulating.

Heat on the GPU isn't really a problem, the GPU fan is a few milimeters away from the outside of the case and therefore sucks cold air in directly from outside. I have drilled many more holes in the side of the case in the area opposite the GPU fan to help air flow. This obviously has an effect on the system temperature too. If the gpu is cooler, then the system will be too.

Many people are using X800s in shuttles with no problems. Running a 6800GT should be okay, the only thing I can see you having problems with is the power, but like I said, 1U server units are available and should help you out in that respect.

[RostokMcSpoons]

Tbh, I think the most extreme thing I want to do to my shuttle is change the PSU (and only if I *really* have to...). Drilling holes is a step too far for a ham-fisted guy like me - I'll just make the thing ugly. Oops - uglier... I've had a beige optical drive in my black shuttle for a year now and I've still not got around to stealthing it, or even painting the drive, so that shows you the extent of my case modding capabilities.

There is a guy on the Sudhian forums fiting a 6800gt into his Shuttle - it's a 250w psu, so I'm following the story with interest... I would rather have 16 pipes and SM3.0 for the same price if it's sensibly possible.

[oddfellow]

LOL
Well, to be honest, I did a pretty crappy job of drilling the holes, but where it's situated, you don't even see that side

As for the optical drive, I just got one of those £10 coolermaster stick on aluminium cdrom covers from good old PC World. Works a treat 8)

[RostokMcSpoons]

As for the optical drive, I just got one of those £10 coolermaster stick on aluminium cdrom covers from good old PC World. Works a treat 8)

oooooooh! http://www.pcwcomponentcentre.co.uk/invt/cmafpu02

cheers, I might pop out at lunchtime to try and get me one of those!

[DSC]

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/show...highlight=200w

6800U on a 200w PSU SFF.

[RostokMcSpoons]

well... it seems there is a good chance that a 6800GT would work, even on my current psu, but there's at least a chance it might go *pop/melt/bang/major conflagration*. I wonder if I could claim on my house insurance if it did :?

[jvd]

watch out . You have an amd chip. It pulls alot from the 5v rail. Alot of people doing the voltage hack to ram by sodering directly into the 5 volt line are blowing thier xps and a64s .

Mean while the p4 rigs don't have this problem.

So if your going to have low 5v rails like the guy at nvnews is sugesting you might not want to put a gt in there or a x800pro.

remember if your card blows and anything else in your pc blows nvidia wont cover it and neither will the company that made the card .

[Chalnoth]

Um, I believe I remember reading that these GPU's mainly draw from the 12V rails.

[jvd]

Originally Posted by Chalnoth

Um, I believe I remember reading that these GPU's mainly draw from the 12V rails.

yes but the power supply can only generate so much voltage . Just look at the posts the guy made . his 5 volt rail is weak and so is his 12 volt rail.

he is using a p4 . With an athlon the 5 volt rail might become extremly weak and might blow the cpu , gpu or all of it .

[RostokMcSpoons]

... errr... voltage hack? I'm lost Was that in the nvnews thread - I didn't see anything... anyway - *I* wouldn't get my fingers so dirty - everything at stock speeds for me, I'm too much of a modding noob to even try it