[Natoma]

For those of you old enough to remember (god I feel like I should be in a nursing home just for saying that, and I'm only 26. ), 1994/1995 brought about a shift in game and graphic technology in the console space that frankly was unlike anything we'd seen since the NES/SMS days.

That year had Donkey Kong Country, Paper Mario, and Yoshi's Island on the 16bit consoles, Aliens Vs Predator on the Jaguar along with "infinite" worlds in the form of CyberMorph (a sorely underrated game) and graphically superior mech games such as Iron Soldier.

Then saw the coming of the Playstation with phenomenal games such as Wipeout, Warhawk, and Toshinden, each of which re-defined their respective genres. The following year we were all floored by Super Mario 64, and have basically watched the 3D platform genre copy its genius.

The prior shift occured in 1985 with the advent of the NES and the subsequent release of the seminal Legend of Zelda, Metroid, and Super Mario Bros. games which created their respective genres and led to a decade long boom until the PS1/N64 era.

Looking ahead, I don't see where the next shift comes from, but they seem to occur in 10 year timeframes. Any thoughts as to what we'll see that will truly change the face of gaming in this next generation?

[jvd]

I don't believe so.

I don't really beleive the jump from the intellivison to the nes was a big deal.

Really the only big shift was to 3d .

I don't see a change like that happening again .

Sure graphics will get nicer adn everything will look better but nothing that great .

Next jump i guess has to be true 3d imaging or mabye vr . Vr has been promised many times and allways fails .

SO i don't see it



So your wrong natoma


p.s this is my turf so behave . You wont last long if you behave like you do in the general forum.

[Natoma]

Intellivision/Colecovision/Vectrex/Odyssey/Atari 7800/Atari 5200/Atari 2600 all paled badly compared to the graphic detail and freedom, let alone sound quality, seen in the games that came from the NES/SMS generation.

That's a laughable thing to say jvd. You know I wub you but I gotta say it.

[jvd]

Originally Posted by Natoma

Intellivision/Colecovision/Vectrex/Odyssey/Atari 7800/Atari 5200/Atari 2600 all paled badly compared to the graphic detail and freedom, let alone sound quality, seen in the games that came from the NES/SMS generation.

That's a laughable thing to say jvd. You know I wub you but I gotta say it.

right but it wasn't a big shift . The graphics got pretty Its like the shift from playstation to playstation 2. The graphics got pretty .

[Natoma]

So you're saying the gaming world freedom and interactivity that came with Zelda and Metroid and SMB wasn't a huge shift from the prior generation of consoles? Just getting away from graphics and going to play mechanics and what gaming conventions the technology helps you foster.

Those games were usually 1 screen only and no movement. Dig Dug, Pac-Man, Centipede, Asteroids, Missile Command, etc etc etc. The NES/SMS generation brought a tremendous change from that. It wasn't just that they got prettier.

[jvd]

Originally Posted by Natoma

So you're saying the gaming world freedom and interactivity that came with Zelda and Metroid and SMB wasn't a huge shift from the prior generation of consoles? Just getting away from graphics and going to play mechanics and what gaming conventions the technology helps you foster.

no i really don't think there was a jump. Those games were possible. There was a game something tower on the intellivison that i played it was a pretty good rpg. Nice and long with many deep dungons .

Zelda did the same but with pretty graphics.

Then again when the game i speak of came out that too had pretty graphics .

[Tahir2]

The shift to me was a little like this:
1. Monochrome graphics with beeps and little interaction.
2. Simple colours (8 or less) with slightly more interesting beeps and increased interaction.
3. Nice colours with a fuller pallette, cartoon style 2D graphics, pretty decent ditties (tunes that is) that were polyphonic, interaction increased substantially but mainly on a 2D plain.
4. Simple shaded 3D graphics, 2D worlds in a 3D environment, same kind of music, similar interaction but with the illusion of depth.
5. Increase in textured graphics and complexity of 3D worlds with CD Quality music in many cases but still a heavy reliance on 2D backdrops and the attempt at increasing freedom to a level that was really non-linear.
6. Increased resolution and increased effects, CD Quality music, true 3D freedom and interaction.

7. The future to come, increased 3D graphics resolution, simulated photo-realism in many cases, CD Quality music, same amount of freedom but in more realistic settings, controls that are tactile may help realism etc.

8... snip more of the same 9. snip more of the same...

10. 2D display discarded and entering a new phase of development.

So... erm I think the next gen is going to simply (hah he says 'simply') be an extension of what we have now.

So no paradigm shift for me in the next generation. Just more power to do more of the same.

[Megadrive1988]

I think the next leap will probably be in the way we interact/control videogames. V.R., sensory control, etc.

Each 5 year leap in graphics is not enough of a shift alone anymore. unless we went from PS1 graphics directly to XB2/N5/PS3 graphics. but PS2/GCN/Xbox bridges that gap.

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by Tahir

The shift to me was a little like this:
1. Monochrome graphics with beeps and little interaction.

1974: Pong

Originally Posted by Tahir

2. Simple colours (8 or less) with slightly more interesting beeps and increased interaction.

1977-1983: Atari VCS/2600/Colecovision/Intellivision/Vectrex

Originally Posted by Tahir

3. Nice colours with a fuller pallette, cartoon style 2D graphics, pretty decent ditties (tunes that is) that were polyphonic, interaction increased substantially but mainly on a 2D plain.

1985: SMB and Metroid

Originally Posted by Tahir

4. Simple shaded 3D graphics, 2D worlds in a 3D environment, same kind of music, similar interaction but with the illusion of depth.

1993: Star Fox

Originally Posted by Tahir

5. Increase in textured graphics and complexity of 3D worlds with CD Quality music in many cases but still a heavy reliance on 2D backdrops and the attempt at increasing freedom to a level that was really non-linear.

Are you referring to rail games? Games like Silpheed ring a bell?

Originally Posted by Tahir

6. Increased resolution and increased effects, CD Quality music, true 3D freedom and interaction.

1994-1996: Warhawk, SM64, Toshinden, Wipeout, Jumpin Jack Flash

Originally Posted by Tahir

7. The future to come, increased 3D graphics resolution, simulated photo-realism in many cases, CD Quality music, same amount of freedom but in more realistic settings, controls that are tactile may help realism etc.

8... snip more of the same 9. snip more of the same...

2005-2008: UE3/HL3/Next iD engine/???

Originally Posted by Tahir

10. 2D display discarded and entering a new phase of development.

So... erm I think the next gen is going to simply (hah he says 'simply') be an extension of what we have now.

So no paradigm shift for me in the next generation. Just more power to do more of the same.

That's what I was figuring as well. But I'd love to see more opinions on the subject.

[Tahir2]

I would argue 6. covers beyond 1996 and includes the present day like Prince of Persia Sands of Time, Zelda Windwaker etc and argue games like Wipeout and Toshinden were in fact pretty limited 3D games.. more like 2D and a half.

These were PS1 generation so going beyond that 6. overlaps into DC and PS2 era... this is based on my list rather than anything else. And it is in this era we have remained apart from one important fact. Physics and AI have improved but the Online human AI has also caused a slight shift as to how we perceive games but this is really a more recent development in my timeline.

Other than that I agree with your pinning down of these milestones Natoma.

[Guden Oden]

Originally Posted by Natoma

1994/1995 brought about a shift in game and graphic technology in the console space that frankly was unlike anything we'd seen since the NES/SMS days.

Uhhmm, didn't SNES premier in 1991? The leap from 91 to 94 is certainly not a very big gulf, or what do you say? Well, maybe for a young whippersnapper like you, but us old grey 32y/os have a longer memory to fall back upon!

along with "infinite" worlds in the form of CyberMorph (a sorely underrated game)

Cybermorph was a fun game with a rotten joypad. Jaguar pad was the WORST PAD EVER for any major console (if you can call the Jag that). It was huge, useless, crap buttons, even worse D-pad and then that completely idiotic keypad on top of it all was just too much. It also had a very thick and unresponsive cable, due to the fact it used a ton of wires for the buttons when all it really needed was 3; power, gnd, data.

and graphically superior mech games such as Iron Soldier.

Umm, well, Iron Soldier looked KINDA good for its time I guess. Wouldn't stretch quite as far as calling it "graphically superior" though.

Looking ahead, I don't see where the next shift comes from, but they seem to occur in 10 year timeframes. Any thoughts as to what we'll see that will truly change the face of gaming in this next generation?

Don't think there can be another quite as innovative shift, really. We've had the power to do most things in games for a while now, future hardware will basically just do the same except prettier/faster, until CPUs are developed that can run AI code that can at least fake passing a Turing test...

Apart from that I don't know how else to revolutionarize the computer gaming business. Real 3D graphics (holograms, retinal projectors, whatever) or player inputs using brain waves or such are really just evolutions of existing concepts.

[Tahir2]

Oh and I thought it was Slipheed not Silpheed.
Slipheed is more in 4. than 5. for me.

5. = early PS1 games that were transitions from 2D to full 3D. It was not until Tomb Raider (yea that game) and SM64 we saw 3D worlds exploited brilliantly and in a manner that was user-friendly (mainly overcoming the obstacle of the camera).

Cybermorph was good by the way, but I preferred Starfox with its lavish designs excellent score and focus on linear obstacle-type platformer gameplay, rather than the freedom in Cybermorph. Sure you could go anywhere you liked on the planets but there wasnt much to do apart from collect those pods and shoot a few bad guys... ooops aren't most games like this? :P

Actually I discredit Cybemorph - I hardly ever finish games and this was one I did manage to 'clock' so it must have been good

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by Tahir

I would argue 6. covers beyond 1996 and includes the present day like Prince of Persia Sands of Time, Zelda Windwaker etc and argue games like Wipeout and Toshinden were in fact pretty limited 3D games.. more like 2D and a half.

These were PS1 generation so going beyond that 6. overlaps into DC and PS2 era... this is based on my list rather than anything else. And it is in this era we have remained apart from one important fact. Physics and AI have improved but the Online human AI has also caused a slight shift as to how we perceive games but this is really a more recent development in my timeline.

Other than that I agree with your pinning down of these milestones Natoma.

Oh no I was trying to give the starting points of each shift, not the range of time. The only time I deviated from that was #2.

I dunno if I'd consider Wipeout a limited 3D game considering all the loops, crests, valleys, and ability to turn around and go back the other way completely. hehe.

Toshinden? Wasn't it was the first game where you could change your axis of movement at will, as opposed to the VF games where your environment was 3D but your characters fought basically on a 2D plane?

[Tahir2]

You could side step in it IIRC. That's why I call it 2D and a half. 8)

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by Guden Oden

Uhhmm, didn't SNES premier in 1991? The leap from 91 to 94 is certainly not a very big gulf, or what do you say? Well, maybe for a young whippersnapper like you, but us old grey 32y/os have a longer memory to fall back upon!

You gotta admit the SNES didn't really bring anything new to the table. Ok the Sony Audio DSP was ahead of its time and Parallax scrolling was fantastic (though wasn't that a TBGFX-16 thing first?), but I don't think things really went crazy in that generation until Starfox, and really that was because of the SuperFX chip.

DKC otoh was out of this world, and that came in 1994.

Originally Posted by Guden Oden

Cybermorph was a fun game with a rotten joypad. Jaguar pad was the WORST PAD EVER for any major console (if you can call the Jag that). It was huge, useless, crap buttons, even worse D-pad and then that completely idiotic keypad on top of it all was just too much. It also had a very thick and unresponsive cable, due to the fact it used a ton of wires for the buttons when all it really needed was 3; power, gnd, data.

WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTT????? I LOVED the Jaguar joypad.

I could dial my grandparents with that thing.

Then again I have huge hands so it fit me well.

Originally Posted by Guden Oden

Umm, well, Iron Soldier looked KINDA good for its time I guess. Wouldn't stretch quite as far as calling it "graphically superior" though.

It was a full 3D flat shaded game. C'mon it was 1993.

Originally Posted by Guden Oden

Don't think there can be another quite as innovative shift, really. We've had the power to do most things in games for a while now, future hardware will basically just do the same except prettier/faster, until CPUs are developed that can run AI code that can at least fake passing a Turing test...

Apart from that I don't know how else to revolutionarize the computer gaming business. Real 3D graphics (holograms, retinal projectors, whatever) or player inputs using brain waves or such are really just evolutions of existing concepts.

I guess at this point I'm wondering whether there will be paradigm shifts in the gameplay. Because while the graphical shifts were enormous, the gameplay is what went to another level. Metroid for instance was the first full sized game that you could go forward and backward on. It introduced saves which increased the value of a game. Zelda brought in the battery backup. 3D was a tremendous shift which opened up huge doors in gameplay. It just seems that things are so tired lately. Just expansions on the 94-96 shift. Hell where have we really gone in FPS since Quake? I dunno.

More thoughts!

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by Tahir

Oh and I thought it was Slipheed not Silpheed.
Slipheed is more in 4. than 5. for me.

No it's definitely Silpheed.

Silpheed was graphically gorgeous. Reminded me of a souped up Space MegaForce/Axelay/Gaiares/Raiden/Thunderforce. Ah the days of the shooter. How I miss them.

But it was definitely a rail game with a 3D backdrop.

Originally Posted by Tahir

5. = early PS1 games that were transitions from 2D to full 3D. It was not until Tomb Raider (yea that game) and SM64 we saw 3D worlds exploited brilliantly and in a manner that was user-friendly (mainly overcoming the obstacle of the camera).

Cybermorph was good by the way, but I preferred Starfox with its lavish designs excellent score and focus on linear obstacle-type platformer gameplay, rather than the freedom in Cybermorph. Sure you could go anywhere you liked on the planets but there wasnt much to do apart from collect those pods and shoot a few bad guys... ooops aren't most games like this? :P

Actually I discredit Cybemorph - I hardly ever finish games and this was one I did manage to 'clock' so it must have been good

Same. Though the ending sucked.

[thop]

I don't think the next shift will be on graphics. The next shift will be on the interface and also on ideas (both tied together). Kinda like the DS, but on A LOT bigger scale. I think the Nintendo president really hit the nail on the head during the conference.

[Natoma]

Originally Posted by thop

I don't think the next shift will be on graphics. The next shift will be on the interface and also on ideas (both tied together). Kinda like the DS, but on A LOT bigger scale. I think the Nintendo president really hit the nail on the head during the conference.

Elaborate?

Btw, my rambling thoughts on graphics:

I guess at this point I'm wondering whether there will be paradigm shifts in the gameplay. Because while the graphical shifts were enormous, the gameplay is what went to another level. Metroid for instance was the first full sized game that you could go forward and backward on. It introduced saves which increased the value of a game. Zelda brought in the battery backup. 3D was a tremendous shift which opened up huge doors in gameplay. It just seems that things are so tired lately. Just expansions on the 94-96 shift. Hell where have we really gone in FPS since Quake? I dunno.

I'm not beholden to the idea that the only shifts must occur graphically.

[thop]

"Different also defines our approach to our next home system. It won't simply be new or include new technologies. Better technology is good, but not enough," Iwata said. "Today's consoles already offer fairly realistic expressions so simply beefing up the graphics will not let most of us see a difference. So what should a new machine do? Much more. An unprecedented gameplay experience. Something no other machine has delivered before."

"The definition for a new machine must be different. I want you to know that Nintendo is working on our next system and that system will create a gaming revolution. Internal development is underway."

"I could give you our technical specs, as I'd know you'd like that, but I won't for a simple reason: they really don't matter. The time when horsepower alone made all the difference is over."

It must obviously be the interface or how we interact with the game or how the game interacts with us, unless the change is sth. that is currently unthinkable for me.

PS. On Mario64: IMO the shift (minor one) was not only because of the fully explorable 3D world but also because of the analog controller. It really belongs together. I expect sth. like that for the next shift but in a more radical form: Interface will change drastically and allow for new ideas.

[pc999]

Originally Posted by Megadrive1988

I think the next leap will probably be in the way we interact/control videogames. V.R., sensory control, etc.

Each 5 year leap in graphics is not enough of a shift alone anymore. unless we went from PS1 graphics directly to XB2/N5/PS3 graphics. but PS2/GCN/Xbox bridges that gap.

I agree wiyh him and thop

PS : and Nitendo probably too ...

[see colon]

Silpheed ...<snip> ...was definitely a rail game with a 3D backdrop.

that's a common misconception. silpheed featured real-time 3D (flat poly's) ships but the background was prerendered video. very well put together, i might add, but the backgrounds were not realtime at all.
c:

[V3]

Looking ahead, I don't see where the next shift comes from, but they seem to occur in 10 year timeframes. Any thoughts as to what we'll see that will truly change the face of gaming in this next generation?

I think what most developers betting on is online play will become mainstream in a big way.

Though most of us here would consider that norm and hardly ground breaking.

What about surround gaming ?

Anyway there better be something big soon, cause I am getting tired of gaming. I might change it to fishing on a yatch or something like that for my spare time

[I.S.T.]

Originally Posted by Natoma

That year had Donkey Kong Country, Paper Mario, and Yoshi's Island on the 16bit consoles, Aliens Vs Predator on the Jaguar along with "infinite" worlds in the form of CyberMorph (a sorely underrated game) and graphically superior mech games such as Iron Soldier.

As I said before, Paper Mario is an N64 game, Natoma. No SNES version.

[Crazyace]

I dont think there has been a major paradigm shift - it only seems so because you limit yourself to a false set of data ( ie VCS->NES>SNES>PS etc )


Apple II starts the gaming trend - with hires colour graphics
VCS was a big shift away from 'single game' entertainment toys.
After VCS the home computers started to pick up... ( Atari400 / C64 )
NES launched to renew collapsed console market.
Atari ST and Amiga show new graphics
PC graphics adapters become usable ( VGA )
SNES / Megadrive - faster versions of old sw..

DKC - Introduced the idea of 'rendered' sprites - A new look for people used to the hand drawn pixel art.

3DO introduced real 3D to the consoles
3DFx introduced 'game' accel. 3D to PC ( it wasnt the first, but it kickstarted PC games )

Everything else since then is just gradual improvements..

( All of this is purely my own opinion of course )

[Raqia]

I'm not pleased with these "paradigm shifts." The art of the 2-D scroller has been lost, and the charm of sprites largely gone. I'm glad a few games take advantage of next-gen hardware to render really nice high res sprites, like Guilty Gear X. Zelda Windwalker is pretty nice for its cartoon like style but that game would have been better with more sprite based scenes, 3-D engines are not all one needs!