[Johnny Awesome]

Don't you guys think that because PGR2 has to replicate real cities that it suffers a little in the graphics department. Bizarre Creations can't really take the same short cuts that others do with games like GT series, TOCA2, Apex, etc... It's a lot easier to make really nice looking tracks that you invent with technical limitations in mind, rather than having to cram all that photo/texture data and geometry (like that ferris wheel in Yokusaka) into available memory/specs.

I think it limits the art-direction as well and is the main reason why still shots of GT4 hold their own against most still shots of PGR2, even though the PS2 is obviously less powerful than the Xbox. Of course, this makes the Sega GT series on Xbox all the more disappointing in retrospect.

While I still think that PGR2's graphics are a solid 9/10, I have to admit that I expected them to be at least this good, but at 60fps. I imagine that MS isn't too crazy about the fact that the sequel only sold 500k so far, as the original sold around 1.5 million.

It's still my favorite racer of all time though.

[Paul]

Don't you guys think that because PGR2 has to replicate real cities that it suffers a little in the graphics department.

No.

[Megadrive1988]

even though the PS2 is obviously less powerful than the Xbox.

there's a problem with this statement. the Xbox does not surpass the PS2 in all technical areas, so saying PS2 is obviously less powerful than Xbox is incorrect.

with that said, I think GT4 will surpass PGR2 in many areas, especially framerate. the fact that GT4 will be 60fps instantly makes it more impressive from a gameplay/visual perspective.

all the extra candy that went into PGR2 was not worth making it 30fps, IMHO.

[marconelly!]

I don't see your point as GT4 (even GT3 I think) has some real life tracks, and they don't look any worse than their made up tracks.

I must say I was quite unimpressed with the way PGR2 looks and moves on the TV. I can't quite put my finger, but it still has that fakey look, much like first PGR did.

[Fafalada]

Bizarre Creations can't really take the same short cuts

Using Real places is a shortcut in itself - you have track and environment layouts, textures, sometimes even modelling(Kaido battle / TXR series serve as a great examples there), basically just about everything already done For you.

And, again as Kaido and Tokyo battle both demonstrate so well (and to a bit lesser extent but still, GT3/4), you can create 'tunnel racing' just as well or even better in real places as in imaginary ones, so no, that isn't an excuse either.

[Bohdy]

Its a real eye opener to see this game replayed at 16X speed 8)

[Ug Lee]

Originally Posted by Megadrive1988

all the extra candy that went into PGR2 was not worth making it 30fps, IMHO.

Agreed 100%.

[Lazy8s]

With real locations, you can't bend the turns in the direction you want nor throw big walls up to avoid overly complex views as conveniently.

[Fafalada]

Originally Posted by Lazy8

With real locations, you can't bend the turns in the direction you want

With real locations, you don't have to. Either the track is already perfectly driveable(when using a real race track), or if it's not (when using some more exotic location) there's always the excuse of - "but it's like the real thing", which seems to satisfy most people. At the very least those that care about realism of locations. :P

nor throw big walls up to avoid overly complex views as conveniently.

Nonsense - of course you can, and it's being done too. That'd be like saying that with real locations you can't use fake ad-boards (which most of games on 'real' locations still do).

[Lazy8s]

Fafalada:

With real locations, you don't have to. Either the track is already perfectly driveable(when using a real race track), or if it's not (when using some more exotic location) there's always the excuse of - "but it's like the real thing", which seems to satisfy most people.

If a left curve wouldn't be as optimal to do in some spot, you can just make it a right curve - especially when you're not having to duplicate some existing course.

Nonsense - of course you can, and it's being done too. That'd be like saying that with real locations you can't use fake ad-boards (which most of games on 'real' locations still do).

... and you can strategically place whole buildings and create the most optimal track layouts to help with occlusion in designer-imagined locations.

[notAFanB]

If a left curve wouldn't be as optimal to do in some spot, you can just make it a right curve - especially when you're not having to duplicate some existing course.

fallacy, as faf said you can always use bills boards or (in breaking authticity) collapse and entire section of a building to mask the issue.

... and you can strategically place whole buildings and create the most optimal track layouts to help with occlusion in designer-imagined locations.

which you can do (but is more difficult to get away with, withness the london track in the original MTR on DC) with REAL tracks anyway.

[Johnny Awesome]

But my point is that in PGR2 they didn't do this. They rendered the cities as they were in all their un-optimized glory. Some of those curves on bridges have ridiculous geometry and a racer built from the ground up on Xbox would probably chose more rectangular geometry and no one would be the wiser. I notice that in GT3 they re-use textures and building geometry like crazy, but in PGR2 the buildings and associated textures are more unique. It's just an observation.

I'm certainly not suggesting that PGR2 is the most optimized engine even, because BC doesn't have the skill that Polyphony does yet, but I still think that it's much more difficult to render real environments accurately then to make up fantasy environments that suit the capabilities of the gfx engine.

Another example: Halo gets away with a lot because masterchief is conveniently mainly one color - green, and helmeted with no facial features. Furthermore, they alien environments are made of metal surfaces which "fortunately" have repeating patterns. Much easier than if Halo was set in downtown New York with dirty graffiti strewn uneven brick walls.

Fantasy is easier to display convincingly than reality, since no one knows what it's "supposed" to look like.

[maskrider]

Originally Posted by Johnny Awesome

But my point is that in PGR2 they didn't do this. They rendered the cities as they were in all their un-optimized glory. Some of those curves on bridges have ridiculous geometry and a racer built from the ground up on Xbox would probably chose more rectangular geometry and no one would be the wiser. I notice that in GT3 they re-use textures and building geometry like crazy, but in PGR2 the buildings and associated textures are more unique. It's just an observation.

I'm certainly not suggesting that PGR2 is the most optimized engine even, because BC doesn't have the skill that Polyphony does yet, but I still think that it's much more difficult to render real environments accurately then to make up fantasy environments that suit the capabilities of the gfx engine.

Another example: Halo gets away with a lot because masterchief is conveniently mainly one color - green, and helmeted with no facial features. Furthermore, they alien environments are made of metal surfaces which "fortunately" have repeating patterns. Much easier than if Halo was set in downtown New York with dirty graffiti strewn uneven brick walls.

Fantasy is easier to display convincingly than reality, since no one knows what it's "supposed" to look like.

I disgree with that, if you are compromising, it is already not a reality, and it is not the "supposed" look.

PGR2's Hong Kong track is shit, far away from reality and not even considered fantasy (except being able to race in Wanchai). Don't know others as I am not familiar with the other places.

But that doesn't mean the game is not fun to me, it is fun to play, but to say it is a closer resemblence to reality is just too much. (edit: added a missing word)

[notAFanB]

PGR2's Hong Kong track is shit, far away from reality and not even considered fantasy (except being able to race in Wanchai). Don't know others as I am not familiar with the other places.

agreed, London is better but still not great. the point I was trying to get at is that yes Fantasy *allows* you to bend the rules with fewer penalties than trying to simulate an real location. But in any event you tend to make shortcuts anyway.

And Johnny yes I agree it's a good engine

[manux]

Game developers -ALWAYS- bring you the maximum looks that the engine can deliver. It is not about realism or fantasy. Polygons and computing power is dedicated where ever it gives the most result. Artists DO NOT use excessive amounts of polygons into bridges, they use it where it brings the most bang(visuals) for the clock cycle... simple as that... PGR2 looks nice, GT3 looks nice, they both use polygons where appropriate.

I have a bias, I do really like the driving model in gt3 and do think 60fps is minimum for good control over cars. PGR2 still looks wonderfull and plays nicely arcade. Still, I cannot make direct comparison between them because they really try to achieve different thing.

In games like unreal tournament I really do dislike everyhing below 80fps. Though I would still take steady 60fps instead of something between 30 and 150fps. Still it's all about how the controls work, how the physics work and what is the level of visuals. How the game plays, and what kind of games *I* like to play. One size really doesn't fit all

[phat]

Originally Posted by Johnny Awesome

Don't you guys think that because PGR2 has to replicate real cities that it suffers a little in the graphics department. Bizarre Creations can't really take the same short cuts that others do with games like GT series, TOCA2, Apex, etc... It's a lot easier to make really nice looking tracks that you invent with technical limitations in mind, rather than having to cram all that photo/texture data and geometry (like that ferris wheel in Yokusaka) into available memory/specs.

I think it bears repeating that GT3 uses real cities (San Fran, Tokyo, etc.), and, in fact, the real city tracks are among the best looking in the game, so your argument falls flat right out of the gate.

[Farid]

Originally Posted by Johnny Awesome

I notice that in GT3 they re-use textures and building geometry like crazy, but in PGR2 the buildings and associated textures are more unique. It's just an observation.

That has nothing to do with the 60/30 fps problem, or even with theirs respectives engines (of both GT3/PGR2). That's (almost, anyway on the ps2 we can say "that's only") due to the memory size and therefore the quantity of data you can use.

Btw, Bizarre creation should stop this MSR/PGR for a time and bring a sequel to the fantastic Formula One 97' (Psone).
A Fomula one racer made by bizarre creation, i would buy a Phantom if it was the only system where this game would be available.
MS should really invest in a Formula one license (and a Cart license for a N.A.) and let Bizarre do the game.