[tongue_of_colicab]

You do realize that the goal is to make profit, not lose more money? :P

I'm all for your idea but at 99$ they'd probably be losing quite a bit of money on the hardware and with $25 dollar software there isn't a whole lot of margin for Sony and, maybe worse, devs. If devs don't make (enough) money, why bother? If there are not games, why bother buying a vita?

[Shifty Geezer]

Replace Vita with a Vita phone somehow. Maybe a headset for phonecalls? Maybe a phone that plugs into a Vita cradle to add the extra controls? But without the phone, I can't see this gaining general appeal. I do not believe the market for core games on the go is that large.

[RobertR1]

There isn't. Maybe it'll gain traction in Japan but price cuts and games won't matter in the US.

The forecast revision is massive and they refuse to breakout the numbers.

[wco81]

They either cut their losses now or if they're going to continue with a portable they have to change course.

If they can't produce something that is priced so attractively that people would make impulse purchase -- for instance it looks like Nexus 7 is getting a lot of impulse buys -- then they might as well stop now.

Most of their prospective customers have smart phones and many are getting tablets. Sony has to make it enticing to these people, many of whom are not inclined to buy another device.

[Arwin]

Originally Posted by ToTTenTranz

IMO, what you're describing is just another consequence from the lack of commitment.

It's not the environment, it's just that Sony completely failed to see what brought profit from the original PSP.

Take a look at the PS Vita's top-rated games and you'll find:
- Casual games like plants vs. zombies, lumines, super stardust, etc.
- A MGS remake

Ooh, how casual those games are ... ahem.

Now look at what brought most of the money for the PSP:
- Monster Hunter
- Gran Turismo
- God of War
- GTA
- Final Fantasy VII: Crysis Core

When in the PSP's lifecycle did those games come out again?

They're trying to strike Android in what Android has best: casual games.

If you look at the whole line-up (there are at least 51 games out even in the E.U.), I dare you to say that the majority of that is 'casual', or that that reflects Android or iOS. But you still see casual games rate very highly in the PSN Store. So if there is any lesson at all for Sony there, it is that there is also a demand for more casual games on their system.

Of course I'm not going to purchase a heavy and bulky console to play the exact same type of games that I can purchase in Google Play for 99 cents, in the smartphone that I have to carry with me everyday.
And it's impossible to compete with Google Play/app market in price, due to their distribution channels.

At least until PSM is released.

Sony should only strike them at what they can't do yet: AAA games with good graphics, stories/characters with depth, high production values.
It's either that or just give up on the whole thing. They won't beat them on the casuals, period.

But I would be - in fact am - slightly annoyed that this device I am carrying with me anyway because I want to play AAA games with good graphics etc. (and more importantly almost, controls) would be so much better at many of these casual games I also sometimes play (even just because it has sticks and a nice, big screen), but they're not on there. So personally I'm hoping PSM becomes a big hit in that space.

It's not a different battle this time than it was in 2005. The NDS already took over the casuals in the last decade and the PSP brought Sony tons of money anyways. It's Nintendo who should be the most affected by Android and iOS. Not Sony.

This is true, but Sony had trouble selling software last gen due to piracy, and the PSP was one of the best portable media devices. Now this is an area where it does get a lot of competition from Android and iOS, so it still matters. In addition, they also lost their console space domination, which helped them so much with the PSP, which they then partly blew.

Instead, just look at the most successful games for the PSP. How many of those franchises have been released for the Vita? Zero.

Same response - it's early days.

And how many of those same best-selling genres/franchises have been announced during E3 2012? Zero.

True, not enough attention at E3.

Given Sony's generalized over-greediness, number 2 is less likely to happen.
They were even stupid enough to force a proprietary mass storage media onto the consumer, again.

I'm not going to have this discussion again, but security was their primary concern for the storage media, as piracy was their biggest problem for the PSP.

I think it is far to soon for everyone to cry foul at the Vita, for two reasons:

1. The game launched not six months ago in the two biggest markets. It has quite a stellar launch line-up all things considering.
2. The Vita needs to benefit from aging and getting cheaper.

I do agree that the memory card thing is an issue, but only in terms of price. It needs to get cheaper and faster, and Sony has already expressed they are aware that this is a big bottleneck. As soon as they can get the Vita below $200 including a 16GB card, then things will start getting interesting, sales-wise. Then only software releases will become a bottleneck.

Certainly though, for Japan they need to do more, software wise. In that respect it made little sense for them to launch there first.

I'm quietly convinced that the Vita was relatively cheaply designed anyway, with low investment costs, and is going to do quite well, especially once PSM launches and we're into the console's second year. I would almost go so far as to say Vita is the least of Sony's worries, with Playstation doing relatively well overall, their primary concern is keeping a constant flow of support of the Vita (if CoD Vita is good enough, that'll help a lot) and not have the much more difficult launch of the PS4 detract too much attention from it. Because once the PS4 comes out, things will get much more complicated for them - they will have titles targetting the Vita and PS3 (which will possibly also run on PS4, but then not benefit graphically all that much) vs titles targetting the PS4 exclusively, have different PSN tiers possibly (just dropping may not be an option), etc.

[babybumb]

Looks like PS3 outsold Wii+360 combined or PS2 outsold Wii this quarter Going for the earlier..

Making any money on gaming hardware will be extremely difficult going forward. You cant sell garbage HW with huge margins anymore. Nintendo is losing $250M this quarter because of HW and this is batshit insane because they only make HW to sell their own software mainly.

So either your mobilegaming HW will be too shitty vs smartphones/tablets for anyone to care or too expensive to sell any real numbers.

I´m not sure if Sony should have made Vita or not but it´s not a huge disaster if they pull the plug now. Its never going to make or lose too much. I doubt they will in the next few years though because they can cost cut it

[Xenus]

Why in god's name would pull the device after 6 months? Jeez the logic in here is terrible. They are selling the devices pretty much at cost the R&D is already a sunk cost. They continue you to sell the device with out insane moves like cutting the price well below cost and at worst they do is tread water which is exactly where they would be if they pull out.

[wco81]

Unsold inventory is a cost against the bottom line. Not to mention COGS and shipping out to the channel.

First Xbox had sunk R&D costs by the time MS pulled the plug. Why not continue to make and tread water?

Same thing with Wii. Why is Nintendo the first to jump to the next gen?

Yes it's early with Vita but does anyone honestly see the situation changing drastically for the better without a major change in pricing?

[eastmen]

To me its a smiple mistake of timing.

They need to off set their development cycles. Launch Consoles - 3 years in launch handheld - 3 years in launch new console - 3 years in launch new hand held.

Right now they just launched the vita and they are prepearing to launch the ps4 within a year of each other , they simply don't have the development might behind them for the games.

[upnorthsox]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Replace Vita with a Vita phone somehow. Maybe a headset for phonecalls? Maybe a phone that plugs into a Vita cradle to add the extra controls? But without the phone, I can't see this gaining general appeal. I do not believe the market for core games on the go is that large.

They don't need a phone, just text messaging. That'll satisfy 97% of their prospective customers.

[Scott_Arm]

Originally Posted by upnorthsox

They don't need a phone, just text messaging. That'll satisfy 97% of their prospective customers.

I don't know about that. Plus, how do you text without a phone number? Unless it's just Vita to Vita texting, in which case it would not really satisfy the average phone users texting demands.

[AlphaWolf]

There's apps that let you text without a phone number (without paying for your own anyway). I had one for my ipod called text plus.

[tongue_of_colicab]

But most people these days are using whatsapp or line (well europa and asia anyway, dont know about the US) so you need a phone number.

[AlphaWolf]

It gives a number to which people can send and you receive. No need to have your own 'phone' number. I doubt textplus is the only app of its kind and I doubt it would be difficult to copy.

[Bigduo209]

Originally Posted by tongue_of_colicab

You do realize that the goal is to make profit, not lose more money? :P

I'm all for your idea but at 99$ they'd probably be losing quite a bit of money on the hardware and with $25 dollar software there isn't a whole lot of margin for Sony and, maybe worse, devs. If devs don't make (enough) money, why bother? If there are not games, why bother buying a vita?

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Replace Vita with a Vita phone somehow. Maybe a headset for phonecalls? Maybe a phone that plugs into a Vita cradle to add the extra controls? But without the phone, I can't see this gaining general appeal. I do not believe the market for core games on the go is that large.

I think saying the Vita should be a phone is ridiculous. Being a phone wouldn't guarantee it's success and it wouldn't necessarily survive off just that plan alone.

Sony should go for the iPod Touch audience, those who can't afford (or don't want) the monthly smartphone payments, but still want a smartphone-like experience. Sony just needs the apps/services/content to make it happen, a $50 or more price cut should help on the introductory side of things.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Bigduo209

I think saying the Vita should be a phone is ridiculous. Being a phone wouldn't guarantee it's success and it wouldn't necessarily survive off just that plan alone.

Of course being a phone won't guarantee it's success, but at least people won't look at Vita and think to themselves, "my pockets are already full. I'll just take my mobile with me. It has good enough games anyway." Having to be accompnied with a phone makes Vita extremely unportable. If it could relpace the phone that people have to carry around with them, that's a huge barrier to entry removed.

Sony should go for the iPod Touch audience, those who can't afford (or don't want) the monthly smartphone payments, but still want a smartphone-like experience.

I don't know about the rest of the world, but you can get a Galaxy Ace in the UK for £130. You can then put in whatever PAYG SIM you want to, if you want mobile functionality. And you can equip it with an <£9 16 Class 10 MicroSDHC card (of course cheaper are available, but that's the last card I bought ). A Vita can be got for £200 with no storage whatsoever. + £40 for 16 GBs, or +£12 for 4 GBs.

For anyone wanting that smartphnoe experience, Android offers far better value and versatility. An iPod with controllers permanently attached to it isn't a good device for hanging off your belt listening to music while running, or pulling out of your pocket to look something up on the 'net. As such, Vita will never be able to compete with smart devices. It is squarely positioned to sell to people who want core gaming on the go. If this market is tiny, as I suspect, then Sony went after a market that just isn't there, which is why Vita could be doomed. This wouldn't be the first time a company has released a product for which there wasn't a viable market, so it shouldn't come as a great surprise if it happens.

[specwarGP2]

Originally Posted by Scott_Arm

I don't know about that. Plus, how do you text without a phone number? Unless it's just Vita to Vita texting, in which case it would not really satisfy the average phone users texting demands.

Google voice gives you a phone number that you use to text and make calls without needing an actual phone.

[liolio]

Well sepaking of cell phones, I don't even see how it is disputable that SOny should have released the PSP2 as a phone.
The xperia play sold in decent quantity no matter it's pretty underpowered hardware.
I actually I think that I would prefer a Xperia play to the psv. Running on android it just do so much more: crazy number apps, casual games with crossplatform gaming, you can play on Onlive and so if you have a stable connection play for example the last batman.

And the Xperia play is far from optimal, it's not a google product, it's lagging behind wrt to update, (actually truth is it never gonna get them...) it's underpowered. It's imho too tiny (something close to the Galaxy note would be great), I'm not sold on the design (personal issue but not fond at all of sliding design).

Anyway I've got there many times. I still don't think that the PSV will completely bombed, it's too early to make the call but it's obvious that a proper Xperia play phone and the matching 6/7" tab might have made Sony a shit load of money and they would have set a standard in mobile gaming looking forward as well as setting themselves as a relevant Android actor.
For all the devices sold with a data plan Sony could have pass on subsidizing the hardware or make a fair profit on it.

[wco81]

Phone might have helped a bit at the margins. But I just think fundamentally there isn't much of a market left for $50 portable games.

Even people who grew up on various Gameboys can get way more utility and value without buying $50 games. Not just cheap mobile phone games but all manner of video and other media, social networking, etc.

[Platon]

Originally Posted by wco81

Phone might have helped a bit at the margins. But I just think fundamentally there isn't much of a market left for $50 portable games.

Even people who grew up on various Gameboys can get way more utility and value without buying $50 games. Not just cheap mobile phone games but all manner of video and other media, social networking, etc.

I agree with this. I hardly pay $50 for the AAA games for my home console where I can enjoy the games/graphics on a bit screen TV and surround sound. Games that I have for my mobile I have payed like $2-4, but most of the time when commuting and want to kill some time I use my mobile for surfing around the web.

Of course the dedicated hand held consoles do have their benefits and I could see me paying extra for that. For example the controls are just on a different level, that is something that the phones plainly suck at and that is why the games I do have are more puzzles, strategy kind of games. I have tried some action games but my hands are always in the way, you loose half the screen trying to control the game. But still, you will then need to carry around and extra gadget and so on which I don't see myself doing anyway.

Simply put and from an totaly egocentric point of view, to me it seems that the market is just too limited with all the smartphones and other on line social distractions...

[Arwin]

It's not like I pay full price for most of my Vita games either (in fact, hasn't happened yet so far). Off the top of my head, these are my most expensive games:

Rayman: 29,95 (completely worth it, as a single player game I like it better than the PS3 version)
Lumines: 29,95 (licenced music and 3D graphics are worth the premium, but I do have some issues with this game having a bad UI and leaderboards stuff)
Virtua Tennis 4 + Uncharted: Golden Abyss: 44,95 (launch deal, get two for price of one)
WipeOut 2048 I think I paid 19,95, and then got the DLC for free because I already had the PS3 versions

Lots of PSN only titles cost me sub 10 (mostly around 7), like MotorStorm RC, Super Stardust HD, Mutant Blobs Attack, Pinball Arcade, Foosball 2012, Escape Plan (I used a 5 discount I got with the Vita). I also bought that tanks AR game, for 1,49, pretty crazy little thing.

And of course Trials of Montezuma was free (and I played that a sickening amount). I actually bought 3 euro worth of crystals just to support the developers (would otherwise never pay money for such a useless amount of crystals). It is really surprisingly good, much better than Bejeweled Blitz, which I've played a fair amount on iPhone.

Competition on iOS comes almost exclusively from social games like Ruzzle (Rumble), WordFeud, and SongPop. I occasionally try other stuff, but apart from games for my son and Angry Birds, I haven't found much that I enjoy playing on iOS - too many small games, and the controls on Vita are just better for most types of games.

But of course, it is true that you bring your phone everywhere, and the Vita not always. That doesn't matter though - I bring it when it matters, and even in House it is extremely comfortable to be able to bring a gaming device to wherever you feel like playing and still have a great experience.

So far, the Vita throws a long shadow over anything iOS has offered except for the social casual stuff (and PSM could help there in the near future), so personally I'm very happy with it, and think as the price goes down and more games keep pouring out, more people who are real gaming enthusiasts will buy the thing. That's not to say it will ever be as popular as a smartphone, but it doesn't have to be. It just has to have a good 5 year run with a decent audience, say ending around 50 million is more than enough to call it a big success, with software sales almost guaranteed to improve over PSPs in that case.

[jonabbey]

If Sony were to come out with an Android+Vita device, I might be interested, but otherwise I'm good with carrying around an Android phone and tablet. No room for a Vita in our household, unless it were something I could plan on giving my daughter, but Nintendo has always made better hardware for a 4-5 year old.

[liolio]

Originally Posted by jonabbey

If Sony were to come out with an Android+Vita device, I might be interested, but otherwise I'm good with carrying around an Android phone and tablet. No room for a Vita in our household, unless it were something I could plan on giving my daughter, but Nintendo has always made better hardware for a 4-5 year old.

Same here, I'm seriously tempted by the Nexus 7 but I'm still waiting to see what MS brings on the table and how the gaming offering evolved on the different platforms.
I don't have that much of a budget for anything including gaming, I could spend some money on a tablet as it is so convenient for recreational usages while still covering a lot of basic uses of a full blown PC.
With tablet prices set to trend around the 199$ I can't see neither the psv or the 3ds offering enough value for get my money.

[Bigduo209]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Of course being a phone won't guarantee it's success, but at least people won't look at Vita and think to themselves, "my pockets are already full. I'll just take my mobile with me. It has good enough games anyway." Having to be accompnied with a phone makes Vita extremely unportable. If it could relpace the phone that people have to carry around with them, that's a huge barrier to entry removed. I don't know about the rest of the world, but you can get a Galaxy Ace in the UK for £130. You can then put in whatever PAYG SIM you want to, if you want mobile functionality. And you can equip it with an <£9 16 Class 10 MicroSDHC card (of course cheaper are available, but that's the last card I bought ). A Vita can be got for £200 with no storage whatsoever. + £40 for 16 GBs, or +£12 for 4 GBs.

For anyone wanting that smartphnoe experience, Android offers far better value and versatility. An iPod with controllers permanently attached to it isn't a good device for hanging off your belt listening to music while running, or pulling out of your pocket to look something up on the 'net. As such, Vita will never be able to compete with smart devices. It is squarely positioned to sell to people who want core gaming on the go. If this market is tiny, as I suspect, then Sony went after a market that just isn't there, which is why Vita could be doomed. This wouldn't be the first time a company has released a product for which there wasn't a viable market, so it shouldn't come as a great surprise if it happens.

If that mentality was so popular the 3DS should've been dead already, and don't even get me started on the iPad and other tablets. Sony's problem is the execution of the PS Vita, not necessarily because it isn't a phone. It is the pricing, the OS features, the software, the expensive proprietary media, and connective online services that are the make-or-break elements to the handheld. Will a smartphone please a bigger audience? Yes, but not everyone wants or needs one. Kids of certain ages, people who want basic phones, or a need for other side diversions keep a market like that alive. iPads and other tablets (Wi-Fi or 3G/4G) clearly show there is an audience for something that isn't small enough to fit in pockets, the overall experience is what counts the most for those kinds of luxury devices.

The Vita is flawed because of the incomplete experience it offers, it shows plenty of potential and can still sell if Sony can help it live up to that potential. Saying it should be a smartphone is still an excuse, a dedicated handheld can still sell if done right.

Oh and Sony does make smartphones, how well are they doing at this point? If hardcore portable gaming is dead then adding PS games on phones won't help against Apple, Samsung, HTC, and whoever else is fighting for that marketshare.

[liolio]

Originally Posted by Bigduo209

If that mentality was so popular the 3DS should've been dead already, and don't even get me started on the iPad and other tablets.

Well Nintendo had to take a loss on hardware for the device for sales to take off. Still I would be interested if Nintendo provide data about how sales are split worldwide. I suspect that without Japan the 3ds situation would not look that good.

Sony's problem is the execution of the PS Vita, not necessarily because it isn't a phone. It is the pricing, the OS features, the software, the expensive proprietary media, and connective online services that are the make-or-break elements to the handheld. Will a smartphone please a bigger audience? Yes, but not everyone wants or needs one. Kids of certain ages, people who want basic phones, or a need for other side diversions keep a market like that alive. iPads and other tablets (Wi-Fi or 3G/4G) clearly show there is an audience for something that isn't small enough to fit in pockets, the overall experience is what counts the most for those kinds of luxury devices.

Well there is some truth in this. The vita is neither designed for kids neither to be that portable. That's the issue Shifty was writing about, the PSV is design to be a replacement for the PSP and looking at the form factor one of the first PSP. There may no longer be a market for such a device. I do agree with him it's too early to tell though.
As for Sony execution, well the E3 was a bit of a disaster but there are other events in the world this year. I don't feel like the software line up is that bad for a new console.
Looking at the OS and the features, imho Sony can't compete with what the competition provides and what people are used to now through their phone. If they try to be iOS or Android they are just gonna waste more of their money. I would call that not bad execution but bad decision.
People buy tablets even though they don't fit in the pocket but what they offer across the board the PSV or the 3DS will never touch.
The release of successful 7" tablets @199$ is not going to help the PSV that's sure. Nexus seems to do very well, Amazon seems set to answer... next years we may see device that are overall more powerful than the psv on the hardware pov (based on Krait or A15 cores, with 2gb of Ram and a potent GPU) for 199$.

The Vita is flawed because of the incomplete experience it offers, it shows plenty of potential and can still sell if Sony can help it live up to that potential. Saying it should be a smartphone is still an excuse, a dedicated handheld can still sell if done right.

How could Sony make the experience complete? I mean look how much work MS had to do to have minecraft ported to the 360 with 60 millions users, what can Sony do?
There are stuff Sony can no longer compete with, Nokia had possibly some of the best OS out there and gave up.
Either way I'm not sure about what you mean by complete, the PSV to me looks like a pretty high end device, there are stuffs I expect for a device in that price range Sony will never provide by them selves. If you mean more complete as a "toy" we may agree to some extend.

Oh and Sony does make smartphones, how well are they doing at this point? If hardcore portable gaming is dead then adding PS games on phones won't help against Apple, Samsung, HTC, and whoever else is fighting for that marketshare.

Well leveraging the playstation brand is there only competitive advantage, so far they haven't used it.
But lets not be blinded by Sony situation, they can't compete without it imho.
Samsung is designing CPU cores and Soc, they produce display, they produce ram, etc. they are imo both better technically and as they produce their own stuffs from ground up they can afford to sell at lower price or make more margins.

I will definitely agree on something with you, it's price Sony should not have design a product intended to be sold at 250$, it's gonna cost them some money as I can't see the device take off at such a price. Only the most spoiled or lucky kid are gonna have such a present and for adults, well it's definitely compete with Kindle, Nexus, iPad, etc.

EDIT
To make it clearer my POV is that either Sony had to release a line of products based on Android with a strong accent on gaming (thus including proper control) and they try to establish an alternative to google play for games (at first if successful well they may have leverage it further), either they just had to produce a fancy 3ds.
Imo the PSV fails at both. May be your point is that the main problem of the psv is that it fails at the latter.
For a portable and reliable device, Nintendo imho nailed the perfect design with the DS. Sony should have copied that design shamelessly.
A foldable design (without a second screen) would have let a lot of rom to implement proper controls ( I tried the PSV again around 30 minutes at best buy the other day, I don't have gigantic hands still I find the device too busy when it cones to buttons, sticks, etc.).
Sony should have come with a sexier 3DS Xl, that's was not an awesome challenge the 3DS has imo many lacking for cores gamers:
It's under powered imo and lack a second analog stick.
It didn't need a quad cores, neither such a potent gpu to attract gamers. It didn't need the touch pad in the back, neither it needed the hi quality screen (it may make money to other sony division but it's not helping the device...).
Something akin to Apple A5 was enough.
I feel like Sony should have stuck to arm only and go with a pretty off the shelve A9 dual core + mali GPU (/ buy exynos 4210 straight from Samsung). I suspect ARM gpu solution to be cheaper than powerVr ones.
In my opinion it was possible to come with that fancy device (vs the 3DS) @199$ with Sony not having to bleed to much if they were to lower the price to say 149$.
An agressive strategy would have been to have a development price driven and release at the same price as the 3DS so 149$. It's not like they didn't know that more and more devices that fit in your hands compete for your money and that gaming is taking off on the most successful of those devices, phones, be it mostly casual gaming.