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View Poll Results: Which 1TB laptop (2.5", 9.5mm) drive to use for 8x RAID6 volume?
Samsung SpinPoint M8 1TB (HN-M101MBB) 1 50.00%
Western Digital Scorpio Blue 1TB (WD10JPVT) 1 50.00%
Voters: 2. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 07-May-2012, 06:16   #1
Albuquerque
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Icon Question RAID6: Samsung or WD?

Your opinion counts

I'm building a new 2008 R2 server that will act as a VM host for a plethora of boxes, to include a WHS 2011 instance, another 2008R2 instance for hosting some online games (MineCraft, some old Telnet games), and some other nonsense. Because the box will be running 24/7 and will only occasionally get "busy", I'm going to spec it out with equipment with good idle power characteristics. And because it will be serving as the backup instance for all my other home Windows devices thanks to WHS, I need to make sure that data doesn't go off the deep end.

I'm going to stack it all up using laptop drives: a pair of WD Scorpio Black 320GB drives in RAID1 + Z77 caching SSD for the OS and apps volume, and then eight 1TB 9.5mm laptop drives all connected to a Highpoint 2720 SGL in RAID6 for the data volume.

The question is: which 1TB laptop drives to use? You decide
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Old 07-May-2012, 06:23   #2
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I read some time ago that Samsung sold off its harddrive unit (profitability issues, stuff like that).

Also, I've had aversions for Samsung harddrives since the early 2000s due to them being crap, basically. It's probably not true anymore, but still, WD is a safer choice IMO. ...When they're not inundated by floodwaters that is.
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Old 07-May-2012, 06:28   #3
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Seagate bought out samsungs HDD business.
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Old 07-May-2012, 06:41   #4
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Well, they're still marketed as Sammy, so...
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Old 07-May-2012, 06:54   #5
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Ya I was just clarifying Grall's comment. Unfortunately I have no experience with either drive, but I've always leaned towards WD. (Just ordered a caviar black actually )
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Old 07-May-2012, 07:01   #6
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No worries, I wasn't mad at anyone I can't keep track of the innards of who-bought-who, so it doesn't surprise me that the Sammy drives are now Seagates. I have a small place in my heart for Seagate, as my very first x86 PC came with a 100Mb Seagate IDE (ata-33) drive that works to this day.

Realistically though, I don't have a preference for either. Most people have been leaning towards the WD's...
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Old 07-May-2012, 07:54   #7
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Conner, Maxtor, Quantum, Micropolis
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Old 07-May-2012, 10:20   #8
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You need to check if WD are still disabling TLER on their desktop/laptop drives. This might very well give problems on a RAID6 and will force you to go to their much more expensive enterprise spec drives.
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Old 07-May-2012, 15:30   #9
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Do you use software raid ?
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Synology, QNAP, NETGEAR and Buffalo all indicated that their NAS RAID controllers don't depend on or even listen to TLER, CCTL, ERC or any other similar error recovery signal from their drives. Instead, their software RAID controllers have their own criteria for drive timeouts, retries and when a drive is finally marked bad.
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Old 07-May-2012, 16:25   #10
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Quote:
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You need to check if WD are still disabling TLER on their desktop/laptop drives. This might very well give problems on a RAID6 and will force you to go to their much more expensive enterprise spec drives.
Laptop drives, not desktop, thus there is no "enterprise" version unless you go for something absurd like SAS (which I'm not doing...) The Highpoint RAID card can be flashed to have similar behavior to what Davros has quoted; many of the higher-end hardware RAID cards can also be configured similarly to ignore the data recovery cycles.
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Old 07-May-2012, 17:40   #11
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What is the specific reason for 2.5"? Physical size constraints?

As far as your question goes, I run all WD Green 3.5" drives in my WHS and I am very happy with their reliability and performance for low powered low rpm drives since it's used to stream HD movies, music, store recorded TV, backup workstations etc all from multiple PCs. Not sure how that applies to 2.5" scorpios.
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Old 07-May-2012, 18:51   #12
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What is the specific reason for 2.5"? Physical size constraints?

As far as your question goes, I run all WD Green 3.5" drives in my WHS and I am very happy with their reliability and performance for low powered low rpm drives since it's used to stream HD movies, music, store recorded TV, backup workstations etc all from multiple PCs. Not sure how that applies to 2.5" scorpios.
Power and size both, really.

From a power front, at idle, both of the drives I mentioned use between 1/4 and 1/6th of the combined power draw of the WD Green drives (depending on which Green drive you're looking at.) Under load, they use around ~1/2 of the power of the WD Green drives. And of course, the lower power results in less cooling necessity which also results in less noise. I can also can use a smaller power supply as the spin-up power requirement is quite smaller on the tiny drives as well.

From a size front, I can pack eleven laptop drives (8 x 1TB data, 2 x 320GB OS + Apps, and 1 x SSD for caching the OS volume) into a quite small Micro ATX case. Cost is almost flat between 1TB 2.5" drives and 1TB 3.5" drives currently, so that's really not much of an issue.

As for performance? The WD Scorpio Blue 1Tb drive stacks up incredibly well against the WD Green drives. Storage Review has some good numbers on both the WD Green 2TB as well as the WD Scorpio Blue 1TB. For the most part, the Green is slightly faster than the Scorpio, which is to be expected. Since I can cram twice as many spindles into the same space, I'll have lots of performance to "spread around" in that regard. Eight 2.5" spindles in RAID should have more than enough oomph to stream videos, music, backups, et al to multiple simultaneous points in the house.
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Old 07-May-2012, 19:28   #13
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HDD prices ?
http://news.softpedia.com/news/HDD-C...s-266676.shtml
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Old 07-May-2012, 19:33   #14
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Sounds like a FUD article to me. I don't like expensive hard drives just like everyone else, but when you are unable to manufacture anything, you're going to have low expenditures. And when you raise your prices on the existing inventory in order to regulate the outflow of your product (to ensure people who really need drives can still get them), it's just pure profit. I guess the alternative is to continue selling them as low as they always were, but have no ability to maintain product within that demand curve. So then you simply run out of product with no ability to replace it, and now what? That's a good way to go bankrupt.

So, lower expenditures for manufacturing (can't make as much stuff) combined with high prices for selling what little is there = fat profit. I don't think it had to be any sort of collusion or conspiracy, it's just economics.
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And riots are about to begin too.
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Old 07-May-2012, 19:40   #15
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And it's been great for SSD prices, which continue to fall. I just built a few nettop E-350 based PC's for some conference room pc's (fit snugly behind the TV), and since HDD capacity is not a concern, SSD's were actually considerably cheaper and faster for them.
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Old 07-May-2012, 21:35   #16
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Couldn't agree more. Every day you can now find a high-performing name brand SSD drive for under $1 per GB. I remember buying an OCZ Vertex 2 120Gb for under $300 and thinking it was a steal just two years ago...
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Old 07-May-2012, 21:48   #17
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So, lower expenditures for manufacturing (can't make as much stuff) combined with high prices for selling what little is there = fat profit. I don't think it had to be any sort of collusion or conspiracy, it's just economics.
what little is there ? they increased sales by 2%
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Old 07-May-2012, 23:51   #18
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what little is there ? they increased sales by 2%
You're talking about Seagate having annual increase of 2% in shipped units; you're also talking about Seagate who only minimally affected by the floods unlike WD.

http://www.isuppli.com/memory-and-st...h-quarter.aspx

The entire pricing structure of HDDs had to take a collective hit because of the floods, even though they were not all flooded. Seagate's manufacturing contracts and capabilities were not under water, but similarly they were not scaled to sustain all of WD's lost business along with Seagate's own 'normal' business simultaneously. Thus, the fact that WD took a massive supply hit simultaneously (and negatively) affected Seagates ability to deliver.

When your business experiences a massive unplanned spike in demand (this example: a very large competitor falters), you are forced to raise prices or else you'll be out of stock rapidly too. It's the same demand curve that we talked about before; having demand that far outstrips supply is NOT a good place to be.

Yes, prices were raised. It is to be expected, because supply was massively diminished. As supply returns, so will low prices.
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Old 08-May-2012, 03:07   #19
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When your business experiences a massive unplanned spike in demand (this example: a very large competitor falters), you are forced to raise prices or else you'll be out of stock rapidly too. It's the same demand curve that we talked about before; having demand that far outstrips supply is NOT a good place to be.
What!! if you bought a years supply of hard drives to sell on and you sold out in 2 weeks you'd be dancing in the street. Demand = supply is great demand greater than supply is still great and both are better than supply greater than demand.
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Old 08-May-2012, 04:23   #20
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I've always like hitachi, or IBM drives, dunno why. I used to have IBM keybs and monitors.
the hard drives have always made a strong showing in reviews, often being the best ones or short of being the best one. but they don't seem to make the big laptop drives.

I had the 45GB drive from the "horrible series", the 60GB one died on me too but I learnt all hard drives can fail anyway (I lost a number of small drives, i.e. from 100MB to 3GB but there weren't much consequences and I was fooling around with the old crap anyway).
the 250GB IDE hitachi drive was awesome, very fast even with the acoustic management turned on (from MS-DOS). better than some SATA drives I'm sure. lost it to a theft. the only data-loss I've ever had not due to HDD failure.

voted samsung, but just for some feeling they are good on low power and low noise also you will have to watch out for vibrations.
PS : it would be funny to run all of that on a celeron g530 (assuming there's no weird things. minecraft server is the only CPU hungry thing listed there)
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Old 08-May-2012, 04:44   #21
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WD owns hitachi's HDD business.
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Old 08-May-2012, 05:14   #22
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Quote:
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What!! if you bought a years supply of hard drives to sell on and you sold out in 2 weeks you'd be dancing in the street. Demand = supply is great demand greater than supply is still great and both are better than supply greater than demand.
No. If you bought a year's worth of harddrives and sold them in two weeks, then you sold them for far too little money. You always want demand to slightly exceed supply where feasible; you do not want demand to crush supply or vice-versa. If demand is too high, this is when you crank up the dollar figure.

You and I, as consumers, want them to just sell it cheaply and quickly. But as a business owner (especially one that is publicly traded) you have an obligation to maximize value. To use your example: if you bought 365 drives and sold them all in two weeks (26 drives per day) for $5 profit each, sure, you could undercut your competition immediately. But then you'll be out of stock.

Instead, you could also sell the same 365 drives for $50 in profit. Are people still going to buy your drives, when your competition has nothing else to offer as well? Sure, but not in great volumes. So rather than selling them in two weeks, perhaps instead you sell them in three months. Or maybe you get greedy and sell them for $100 each, but it takes nine months to sell them all.

Let's compute the three differences:
365 drives at $5 profit each, sold out in two weeks: $912.50 per week in profit.
365 drives at $50 profit each, sold out in three months (91 days): $1403.84 per week in profit.
365 drives at $100 profit each, sold out in nine months (274 days) at $932.48 per week in profit.

Selling them all at $5 profit is the bottom end of the curve -- sure, you can sell 'em all and then celebrate, but you have zero income after two weeks. Selling them all for $100 profit is the top end of the curve -- yeah, you make a but-ton of money when a sucker buys one, but you really don't end up making more than at $5 because sales are so ungodly slow.

There will be a sweet spot, somewhere in the middle, where a specific price point drives sufficient sales and margin to maximize business value. In that imaginary middle number I created where each drive generates $50 in profit, your business only sold four drives per day instead of 26 drives per day, and yet made almost 50% more profit per week. And you'll have cash flow for three months instead of two week. Why blow your wad all at once? This is basic economics, you can probably take a class at your local JuCo for ~$125 for the three credit hours.
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Last edited by Albuquerque; 08-May-2012 at 05:20.
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Old 08-May-2012, 05:23   #23
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eh, I've started a music file server, in some shoddy place where I do some sysadmin and beer drinking tasks. I added a quantum 6GB drive to the safest but still accessible computer, pried from an useless imac (with useless firmware).

I had to google it for the jumper settings (seriously, not printing it on the drive is a crime), I found advice that said, quantum was bought by maxtor, see maxtor support. no maxtor on the horizon.. but maxtor was bought by seagate, and I could found a nice support page for my quantum drive on seagate's site, with the diagrams for the dreadful jumper settings.

btw 6GB was good enough to add some survival music, and getting it started, I'm doing some thing where the folder is mounted through sshfs, client computers are debian or ubuntu, server (which is a desktop actually) is debian. have some work to automate the mounting (set up ssh keys, set up a tool). then I will add some other crappy drives, a low end SATA controller and join them with UnionFS ; there will be a real HDD for backup off-site.
(yes, we have good upload bandwith, good nuclear electricity and the place is run with computer junk..)
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Old 08-May-2012, 14:39   #24
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Conner, Maxtor, Quantum, Micropolis
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Old 11-May-2012, 16:59   #25
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Placed the order for WD drives last night on Amazon; they should be here Monday thanks to Prime I posted this same question + poll on TechPowerUp forums and most folks went for the WD's.

Not sure how long it takes to initialize eight consumer-grade 1TB spindles for RAID6, but it will probably take a while I should start getting performance data by Tuesday and be able to make some judgement on likely reliability by Wednesday. I'll hammer it with about 2TB of writes across multiple streams and see if I can get it to barf a drive.

Thanks to all who participated in the convo.
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