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Old 05-May-2012, 11:27   #76
Shifty Geezer
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Originally Posted by KongRudi View Post
So basically MS is charging 459,- for the console wich came out 7 years ago for 399,- at launch, with voice-remote and 2 year free online..
And people here is actually concidering taking advantage of this deal?
Sometimes you guys blow my mind.
Uh, yeah. Cost up what you'll have to pay for an XB360 and 'voice remote' and 2 years paid online now and you see it's not a terrible deal. The fact people are still willing to pay that much and MS haven't had to drop the price to $120 shows their product has maintained value - you don't just drop the price because it's tradition, and you shouldn't expect it to be cheaper now if it doesn't need to be.
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Old 05-May-2012, 12:25   #77
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The fact that MS thinks there needs to be a "$99" price point sure suggests to me they see value in a lower price point. It's just a shame if instead of actually being cheaper, they're going with this seem cheaper, but charge more idea.
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Old 05-May-2012, 12:35   #78
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When/If MS throws in a monthly Music pass and some other Movie-pass then this is not a bad deal at all.
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Old 05-May-2012, 13:16   #79
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It's just a shame...
For consumers, but not for MS and their business, which is their objective.
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Old 05-May-2012, 14:20   #80
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Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
Uh, yeah. Cost up what you'll have to pay for an XB360 and 'voice remote' and 2 years paid online now and you see it's not a terrible deal. The fact people are still willing to pay that much and MS haven't had to drop the price to $120 shows their product has maintained value - you don't just drop the price because it's tradition, and you shouldn't expect it to be cheaper now if it doesn't need to be.
Shopping directly at Microsoft with this bundle, I have to pay 99 upfront, for a Kinect/360 bundle, provided I have to pay additionally 15 dollar 24 months, making that 360 more dollars.

So basically I pay 100 dollars to make a 360 dollar loan, to pay for the rest over two years.

If I went to Amazon added Kinect/360 bundle, and two 12 month Live membership-cards. All New. I end up at 372, in total, with all sorts of payment-options.

That's 12 dollar more than the entire loan you can buy from MS for 100$.
i.e. you can spend 85$, to get that loan of some sensible corporation.
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Old 05-May-2012, 15:10   #81
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There are always competitive deals available, but the ASP for XB360 shows the typical consumer isn't shopping around that much.

The protestations in this thread are kinda mind boggling. The world is chockabloc full of poor deals, dodgy credit offers, expensive loans, etc., but people use them; hence their existence. Rather than talk about financing, surely the whole relevance of this MS move is a step towards a potential subscription based future, where the boxes are rented like TV boxes? If so, that suggests a more progessive hardware design would be a sensible option to allow upgrade paths. That's an interesting, relevant discussion. Finance deals...well, clearly some people would love to talk all day about comparing prices and deals, and I'm not going to stop them, but personally I find that discussion pretty irrelevant.
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Old 05-May-2012, 15:29   #82
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I'm not sure why anyone is surprised here, MS has a long and consisten track record of being stingy with hardware and peripheral pricing for 360. Drop the base price to $99? Ya right!

Right now, MS is just apeing everything Apple does, this seems to just be another similar take on this. MS wants their iTunes, they want their table/desktop ecosystem, and they want to tie all that into the console in one neat little tidy ecosystem. It can't be too long before user accounts for XBLive gold, and Windows Market become one and the same... Hello consumer lockin!! At then end of they day, this is all about getting people on to live, and getting their MasterCard #s.

I see way to much immitation and not enough innovation though, it'll be interesting to see how it all works out.
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Old 05-May-2012, 15:59   #83
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Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
There are always competitive deals available, but the ASP for XB360 shows the typical consumer isn't shopping around that much.

The protestations in this thread are kinda mind boggling. The world is chockabloc full of poor deals, dodgy credit offers, expensive loans, etc., but people use them; hence their existence. Rather than talk about financing, surely the whole relevance of this MS move is a step towards a potential subscription based future, where the boxes are rented like TV boxes? If so, that suggests a more progessive hardware design would be a sensible option to allow upgrade paths. That's an interesting, relevant discussion. Finance deals...well, clearly some people would love to talk all day about comparing prices and deals, and I'm not going to stop them, but personally I find that discussion pretty irrelevant.
I weren't shocked about the fact this deal exist - I were shocked that people in this thread wanted to take advantage of it. :-/

I do think that you're correct in assuming this deal is mainly market-research - but I don't think they concider not owning the boxes, or is gonna start providing free game-software on a regular basis, like PS+.
I assume it's most likely market-research of how many people will hoop and jump through service-termination clauses in the contract, to get away from paying the live-fee - at 15$ a month, when they see what it cost them, before they decide how much they can raise the price next generation. Maybe they will ship a questionaire or two, asking if the customer is happy, etc.
I don't think high enough of MS to think this is the baby-steps into making Xbox a leasing-PC. :-/
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Old 05-May-2012, 16:45   #84
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The fact that MS thinks there needs to be a "$99" price point sure suggests to me they see value in a lower price point. It's just a shame if instead of actually being cheaper, they're going with this seem cheaper, but charge more idea.
They see value in a recurring business model that exposes consumers to xbox live services and offerings for 2 years.

Instead of the consumer wondering if Gold and it's services are worth it, MS is making that decision for them. The hope from there would be that they get hooked on the Gold offerings and become accustomed to using the Xbox as their entertainment hub.
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Old 05-May-2012, 17:17   #85
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I've been secretly hoping that Sony's and Nintendo's free online eventually would force Microsoft to make Live free to play...Guess that won't ever happen now
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Old 05-May-2012, 17:38   #86
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I've been secretly hoping that Sony's and Nintendo's free online eventually would force Microsoft to make Live free to play...Guess that won't ever happen now
You have to blame Sony and Nintendo for that, for not offering a competitive alternative. As it stands XBLive is worth it for millions (myself included) because it's better than what the competition offers, simple as that. Now Microsoft can leverage that same service in this financing idea. I think it's all brilliant really.
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Old 05-May-2012, 17:56   #87
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Not really, MS were just first, and can keep micro-charging - because the important thing 'online play' gets deactivated if you don't pay.
By your logic MS would be lowering the price of their games, even tough they don't come with online out of the box.

PSN as a service is on par with Live, in some ways better now with Vita in the mix..
We got party-system, cross-game chat, etc.
And also lots of other stuff like if one of my friends get a trophy in the game I'm playing, I get automatically informed about that, if I scroll down in that games Live-area.

I like the Near stuff too, it is really cool, the ultimate spy-on-friends peep-tool, atleast the few times I can figure out how it works - that needs to get way better documented, before PS4, and much more streamlined, it's annoying that it works different on each game.

I hope all consoles should have that kind of Live-area stuff next generation.
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Old 05-May-2012, 18:13   #88
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PSN as a service is on par with Live, in some ways better now with Vita in the mix..
So you are shocked about people going after a $99 Xbox+Kinect deal, but Vita memory card pricing is cool with you? Ok then I don't have a Vita, no need for it since I already have a cell phone hence Vita is a collosal waste of money to me. I did have a PS3 though for many years, and I never found it comparible to XBLive. Hence why I find XBlive worth it. The competition is what sets pricing, and with no competition Microsoft can keep pricing XBLive as they want. If there truly was a free competitor then you wouldn't have millions paying for XBLive.
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Old 05-May-2012, 19:25   #89
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The competition is what sets pricing, and with no competition Microsoft can keep pricing XBLive as they want. If there truly was a free competitor then you wouldn't have millions paying for XBLive.
But for there to be an actual competitor it would have to be on the same platform. As that's never going to happen MS will always price it how they want. By buying a 360 you are tied to the Live model and if you want to do anything useful with it you have to pay for it. Those millions have no choice.

Obviously that's the same with the PS3, you are tied to SEN, only it's a free service.
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Old 05-May-2012, 20:38   #90
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But for there to be an actual competitor it would have to be on the same platform. As that's never going to happen MS will always price it how they want. By buying a 360 you are tied to the Live model and if you want to do anything useful with it you have to pay for it. Those millions have no choice.

Obviously that's the same with the PS3, you are tied to SEN, only it's a free service.
Yet, 360s keep selling and Live keeps accumulating subscribers despite the existence of the free alternative. It would seem that some people must be seeing additional value there.
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Old 05-May-2012, 20:47   #91
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Yet, 360s keep selling and Live keeps accumulating subscribers despite the existence of the free alternative. It would seem that some people must be seeing additional value there.
But there isn't a free alternative! If you had the option of Live or SEN on your 360 then there would be an alternative. And the same for the PS3.

You have a choice about the hardware you buy but not the service you use afterwards so there is no competition in that sense.
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Old 05-May-2012, 20:48   #92
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Originally Posted by BRiT View Post
When/If MS throws in a monthly Music pass and some other Movie-pass then this is not a bad deal at all.
Agreed. The extra services will be a deciding factor in whether the deal is worth it. The extra year of warranty(provided its for both the console & sensor) is worth $50(or $25 a piece) if you buy it from directly Microsoft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer View Post
The protestations in this thread are kinda mind boggling.
Yeah, it's got me puzzled as well. Although considering the ones replying maybe it shouldn't be surprising. LOL

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Originally Posted by scooby_dooby View Post
Right now, MS is just apeing everything Apple does, this seems to just be another similar take on this.
Oh so Apple is now the one who invented the 2-year sales contract for cell phones?

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Originally Posted by KongRudi View Post
I weren't shocked about the fact this deal exist - I were shocked that people in this thread wanted to take advantage of it. :-/
What's shocking that some people do not or can not pay full price for what most people consider to be a toy? What's so shocking that some do not or can not take advantage of using credit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR1 View Post
They see value in a recurring business model that exposes consumers to xbox live services and offerings for 2 years.

Instead of the consumer wondering if Gold and it's services are worth it, MS is making that decision for them. The hope from there would be that they get hooked on the Gold offerings and become accustomed to using the Xbox as their entertainment hub.
I think its just a natural evolution of the market to go the subsidizing method of paying for hardware & services. Especially considering that games will be going more & more digital. It makes sense to tie the games & other services to monthly contract just like the cell phone industry.

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Old 05-May-2012, 20:54   #93
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You have a choice about the hardware you buy but not the service you use afterwards so there is no competition in that sense.
Doesn't the choice of hardware include a choice of service? It might not (actually it probably doesn't as the other deciding factors are more important IMO) but that is what shoppers are supposed to be buying on. They are supposed to be identifying what they get for their money. I really don't think many do, but the choice is a valid one. If free online gaming is that important to you, buy a PS3.
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Old 05-May-2012, 21:37   #94
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Doesn't the choice of hardware include a choice of service? It might not (actually it probably doesn't as the other deciding factors are more important IMO) but that is what shoppers are supposed to be buying on. They are supposed to be identifying what they get for their money. I really don't think many do, but the choice is a valid one. If free online gaming is that important to you, buy a PS3.
But, like you say, I honestly think that the majority don't pick it for the behind the scenes service. Walking in off the street you are more likely to be influenced by adverts seen on TV, in magazines, and finally in the store itself.

If the purchase decision was made just on the rolling cost of ownership, and the cheapest always wins, Sony would be laughing or Live would be free.
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Old 05-May-2012, 21:57   #95
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If the purchase decision was made just on the rolling cost of ownership, and the cheapest always wins, Sony would be laughing or Live would be free.
Value != cheapest.
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Old 05-May-2012, 22:39   #96
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If the purchase decision was made just on the rolling cost of ownership, and the cheapest always wins, Sony would be laughing or Live would be free.
But as we know that isn't the case, otherwise Apple wouldn't be laughing all the way to the bank with any of their products. As has been said before and will be said again, value does not mean least expensive.
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Old 05-May-2012, 22:43   #97
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But, like you say, I honestly think that the majority don't pick it for the behind the scenes service. Walking in off the street you are more likely to be influenced by adverts seen on TV, in magazines, and finally in the store itself.

If the purchase decision was made just on the rolling cost of ownership, and the cheapest always wins, Sony would be laughing or Live would be free.
If cheap also meant a less full featured and less robust system, ala. PSN versus Xbox Live Gold, then cheap isn't necessarily best.

That's always going to be up to the user whether they want to pay for the additional features and content that are available through Xbox Live Gold versus something like PSN.

Some obviously find great value in what is available through Gold not only on the gaming front (consistent quality of voice chat in all games and across games for example) but in the non-gaming related features as well.

Hence you see people paying for Xbox Live Gold despite having both PS3 and X360. Even when those users never play games online.

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Old 05-May-2012, 22:46   #98
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Oh and as for the extra 40 USD.

Just out of curiosity I went to Newegg.com. A 1 year extended warranty (which comes with this subscription plan) is 25 USD there.

So over the length of 2 years, you're actually only paying 15 USD more tha you would for a non-subscription based X360 with extended warranty and 2 years of Xbox Live gold at MSRP.

Obviously shopping around can get you good deals. But that's true for everything. But for people with bad credit, people who don't want to or can't afford to plonk down the cash for a Console + a few games at one time, people who don't want to shop around, etc. It's a fantastic OPTION. It's not like the other choices are going away. So it offers the consumer more choice in how they wish to conduct their purchase. And that's obviously a good thing.

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Old 05-May-2012, 23:02   #99
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What about warranty for the kinect?
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Old 05-May-2012, 23:22   #100
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So basically MS is charging 459,- for the console wich came out 7 years ago for 399,- at launch, with voice-remote and 2 year free online..
And people here is actually concidering taking advantage of this deal?
Sometimes you guys blow my mind.
I don't consider it a great deal, but it isn't a horrible deal as some are lamenting.

e.g. If you want Gold features and want Kinect, and considering the $459 price tag ($99 + $360 ($15x24mo)) you can minus $150 off for getting a Kinect and minus $80 for 2 years of Live ($40 cards are quite common, but not always available which I am balancing against you sometimes see $36 ones). That means you are paying $229 for a 4GB Slim Xbox 360 + whatever other junk MS is going to package in with the service end. And it comes with a 2 year warranty which has some value. Some all the extras over buying straight up comes to about $30.

Of course you could argue that you can get a 4GB Slim with Kinect for $299 which, along with the $80 in live fees, comes to $80 difference for a savvy Live Card shopper or $40 for those buying straight retail. The later scenario applies to gamers most likely to take advantage of this.

For these people $30-$40 more for (a) a 2 year warranty (b) $99 up front (c) some extra Gold service perks isn't a horrible deal. Maybe money isn't an issue to them but maybe they would rather spread out the console cost as part of their Live service bundle so with the $99 console they also pick up 2 games ($120) and an extra controller ($40). So instead of walking out of the store short $619 (Xbox 4GB, Kinect, 1 controller, 2 games, 2 years Live) they walk out short $259 for the same jazz and a $15/mo fee.

Walking out $350 lighter in the pocket is not joke for many consumers.

Once you consider the desire to pick up a couple games, controller, etc the long term cost of $30-$40 "premium" for the luxury of spreading out their costs is not a bad deal--especially if the consumer, which is most American's, buy on credit.

Now this deal is NOT for me. I pay off my credit card monthly and have a "fun budget". I am not going to spend the extra money to get something earlier. At least not for a 7 year old console.

On the other hand if the new Xbox was a premium console and the "Live Platinum" service was some value I could see paying $199 up front, getting a game or two, an extra controller, and being OK with a $15-$20 month Live Platinum fee / Service Contract *if* the experience was compelling. I would prefer a $399 console and $5/mo Live (or better FREE) but we may not see those options. With the success of people buying $200-$400 phones AND huge service contracts I think many consumers are fine with it. I am not unless it is a console worth paying such for. Something is going to change in the industry, either more Wii-like evolutions or new business models for the hardware and games.

EDIT: Ok, I just read this last page after I posted... some of your are unreal. I know you are brand devoted but cry me a river. I am not a fan of this, but I also don't pretend like it is some calamity. Immoral? Seriously? And yes MS sees a value at a $99 price point, but not a strict $99 one off. What they see is the value in exposing people to Kinect AND Live at $99+$360 over 2 years which is NEARLY the retail cost of the product--basically you are paying MS a small fee instead of Visa/Mastercard but get the perk of a better warranty and services. Of course MS is also allow you to go the traditional route and BYPASS all of this and buy the stuff, on sale even, if you want. Oh, you want a $99 console?

What kind of fantasy land do you people live in? The Wii is essentially an overclocked GCN from 2001 with a waggle wand and the cheapest I see on Amazon is $174 and at Walmart $150. The PS3 is $250 at Walmart and $250 from Amazon. If MS's competitors cannot get their consoles to $99 how is MS to get the 360 to $99 when they also are throwing in a $149 retail peripheral?

As for Live, if it was on par or even less so as some of you above just said it would not command $5 a month (or $3 if you are savvy). I am not saying you have to like Live (the dashboard is slow) or find personal value in it but the myopic comments are from myopic minds who only see things from their side of the console fence. I learned a long time ago that even though I have my own strong preferences and ideas those do not align with the market and I need to think outside of my own self to fairly engage such topics. I think buying crap on credit is moronic but that doesn't mean the world looks at it like that. I dislike paying for Live, especially with the lack of dedicated servers, and I dislike the locked in Xbox ecosystem. But they are not bullet points across the board to perpetuate my own tastes and preferences as there is a big picture beyond myself. Some of you don't seem to get that and really cannot be taken seriously by attributing comments like "immoral" and whatnot. Where were these comments when Sony was offering $100 off if you get a credit card???? Some of you are UNREAL.
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