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Old 03-May-2012, 18:26   #11501
IllusionistK
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Idea for next-gen power consumption: According to the Anandtech and Guru3D GTX 690 reviews, it consumes well under 300w during gaming(260-270w across both reviews) and that's clocked at 915Mhz with four gigabytes of GDDR5 which, of course, is mirrored, but still consuming power.

-Under clock the core, shader, and memory further
-Half the RAM
-Consider the board power consumption, etc..

I can see a 200w, 3072 core fit inside a console if the thermal design of said console is raised to 250-300w. The desktop GTX 680 or 670 is already rumored to be in the next high-end notebooks, though the core will be binned and of course under-clocked.

With 18+ months before launch, the 20nm process taping out at TSMC/GF in Q4'12, I don't believe its unrealistic to look at whats currently on the market, both in terms of PC hardware and technology, to make very close predictions about the hardware and technology that we'll see in a 2013 console.
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Old 03-May-2012, 19:16   #11502
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Did i miss something regarding the RAM in the devkits somewhere? Thought there was still nothing but poor quality rumors.
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Old 03-May-2012, 20:03   #11503
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Is there possibility of having APU with stacked memory as 3D IC? Can be interesting to have 'next-gen' APU with fast stacked 1GB or more of RAM. Make it two for better heat dissipation and yields and connect it with 8GB of SSD like storage for streaming, of course include at least 250GB HDD and here is your PS4.

I don't think they throw at us some low-power crap, their CTO looked far more ambitious in (not so) recent interview. AMD with Sony can go completely custom, they can make whatever APU configuration they want, design it to not exceed 100W e.g. Shouldn't be a problem to have two 100W chips in console.

Last edited by novcze; 03-May-2012 at 20:08.
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Old 03-May-2012, 20:04   #11504
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nvm
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Old 03-May-2012, 20:32   #11505
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For that, they'll need a memory standard for stacking, and I've only seen them mention the low power wideIO, which is targeting phones/tablets, it's not exactly fast at 12.8GB/s per chip @512bit. Hopefully a higher power version will arrive just in time

EDIT: I spoke too fast:
http://eda360insider.wordpress.com/2...rds-evolution/
"Wide I/O JEDEC standards are in the works that target Tbit/sec data rates for high-performance requirements. These new standards will also explicitly support 2.5D and 3D memory stacks."

Last edited by MrFox; 03-May-2012 at 21:28.
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Old 04-May-2012, 00:29   #11506
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Gaffer put a 1000 mhz 7850 in his X51








http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...9#post37538289
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Old 04-May-2012, 19:13   #11507
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If MS or Sony go with high end CPU and GPU next gen and about 4gb gddr5. Will that be enough to achieve CGI quality graphics in real-time (aka toy story)?
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Old 04-May-2012, 19:20   #11508
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Originally Posted by playaplayer View Post
If MS or Sony go with high end CPU and GPU next gen and about 4gb gddr5. Will that be enough to achieve CGI quality graphics in real-time (aka toy story)?
No. You need this:



With a cooling system like this:


To achieve CGI quality. And it still wouldn't be in realtime.
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Old 04-May-2012, 19:31   #11509
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Originally Posted by Rangers View Post
Gaffer put a 1000 mhz 7850 in his X51
Has he tried running it at full load for 36 hours? IIRC, that's what MS does for part of the random QA, but I'd be more curious to know the temperatures and fan speed/noise for the system at that point, not if the machine fails. Personally, I can be gaming for 8-12 hours straight (on weekends).
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Old 04-May-2012, 19:44   #11510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steviep View Post
No. You need this:
To achieve CGI quality. And it still wouldn't be in realtime.
It's an interesting question, what could be achieved in realtime. Toy Story was very simplistic. Detail would have to be reduced, and we wouldn't get the IQ of CGI probably, but the general feel might be obtainable.

If you think about it, texture detail could be megatextured, so no problems there. Lighting is mostly baked or simplistic brute-force (lots of placed lightsources); a high end GPU could use a simple GI estimation for a similar look. It's poly counts that I think would pose the most trouble, but maybe with displacement maps and tesselation the models would work just fine?

However, no game is going to want to look like everything's made out of plastic (except a Toy Story 1 game). I doubt anyone will try to recreate Toy Story in realtime when graphics features have moved on so far.
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Old 04-May-2012, 20:44   #11511
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We got a Wii U diagram patent, guys:



Three memory pools!?
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Old 04-May-2012, 20:58   #11512
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Originally Posted by theLonely1 View Post
Three memory pools!?
Ooooh cool Maybe they added a large, low speed, scratch area?
I'm curious about the box enclosing the memory with the GPU as the system LSI, could it be? They did use the terms internal versus external.
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Old 04-May-2012, 21:03   #11513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theLonely1 View Post
We got a Wii U diagram patent, guys:

Three memory pools!?
Looks like a GameCube/Wii diagram to me.
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Old 04-May-2012, 21:14   #11514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadmeat View Post
Looks like a GameCube/Wii diagram to me.
Well, is taken from here:

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20120108329.pdf
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Old 04-May-2012, 22:31   #11515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFox View Post
Ooooh cool Maybe they added a large, low speed, scratch area?
I'm curious about the box enclosing the memory with the GPU as the system LSI, could it be? They did use the terms internal versus external.
According to the patent document, the VRAM serves as a storage buffer for polygons and textures. Of course, framebuffers are textures too, and the document also cites the TV and terminal images being stored in VRAM.

The internal main memory does indeed appear to be a general purpose pool, handling data from the optical drive (program data, textures, audio for the DSP) and from the controller.


edit: it actually does sound like the Wii setup, doesn't it.
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Old 04-May-2012, 22:47   #11516
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theLonely1 View Post
New revision of Wii with support for WiiU controller? Since the console in those diagrams is 1:1 Wii, and doesn't resemble those proto-WiiU's at all
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Old 04-May-2012, 23:47   #11517
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangers View Post
Gaffer put a 1000 mhz 7850 in his X51








http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthre...9#post37538289
Looking at this and his claimed 203 Watts(even with inefficiency ) under furmark gives me hope for next consoles from MS/S. I don't believe neither of two will go high. I begin to dream again about 300w TDP console with 2013/14 version of xenos .
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Old 05-May-2012, 01:29   #11518
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Originally Posted by AlStrong View Post
Has he tried running it at full load for 36 hours? IIRC, that's what MS does for part of the random QA, but I'd be more curious to know the temperatures and fan speed/noise for the system at that point, not if the machine fails. Personally, I can be gaming for 8-12 hours straight (on weekends).
Well, of course he hasn't. I hate to give ammunition the haters, but he did mention his CPU was running hot. 55C and 85C at load I think. Heck I tried overclocking my Q6600 the other day and it shut off at 70C. I didn't know CPU's could go above ~70c.

But he seems like a total total newb, so there's little telling. Some commenters were wondering if he put his CPU thermal paste on correctly for example, since he'd never done it before (and for some reason he redid his CPU thermal paste manually).

Heck for that matter measuring CPU temps with software is an innaccurate science, so he may be simply be using the wrong program too.

Anyways I doubt the change in video card would affect things that much, so I'd have to wonder if other X51 CPU's run hot, I assume not since no GAF commenters brought it up.

Thinking seriously, I'm thinking if you dropped a pitcairn/7870 in a console, you would probably have to underclock it to 800.
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Old 05-May-2012, 01:44   #11519
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaotik View Post
New revision of Wii with support for WiiU controller? Since the console in those diagrams is 1:1 Wii, and doesn't resemble those proto-WiiU's at all
Maybe they just want to protect the controller atm, and they don't want to disclose Wii U hardware yet, so they just used the Wii for patent purposes. Is that feasible/legal? Anyone here well verse don patent law? So many questions,

Anyway, the patent also shows a smaller terminal unit:

Last edited by theLonely1; 05-May-2012 at 01:51.
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Old 05-May-2012, 02:14   #11520
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangers View Post
Well, of course he hasn't. I hate to give ammunition the haters, but he did mention his CPU was running hot. 55C and 85C at load I think. Heck I tried overclocking my Q6600 the other day and it shut off at 70C. I didn't know CPU's could go above ~70c.
I think ~95c is the thermal cutoff on sandy bridge i7's. I run mine at 4.7ghz, which at full load is ~73c and still considered 'safe' in the overclocking community.
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Old 05-May-2012, 04:01   #11521
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"Internal Main Memory" = eDRAM?

LSI = Large Scale Integration?

"System LSI" = one package to hold all those components or just a single discreet area of the mobo all under the same heatsink? Weird.

The Patent lists the DSP as using the internal main memory, so maybe it's just another general purpose memory pool? Seems more complicated than necessary to me, unless Nintendo is trying to recreate the GC/Wii operating environment for BC which could be done in emulation easily enough if the Wii U does have the rumored specs.

Last edited by Mobius1aic; 05-May-2012 at 04:08.
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Old 05-May-2012, 10:56   #11522
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"System LSI" looks like Flipper

VRAM = 1MB eDRAM framebuffer
Internal Main Memory = 2MB eDRAM texture cache
DSP = Audio DSP

Could also be the new version of System LSI for WiiU with new GPU and more eDRAM.
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Old 05-May-2012, 11:17   #11523
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No, the internal main memory is described as a general buffer in the document (search 11e). See my post above (it's really more like the Wii with the 24MB 1T-SRAM being the IMM), but I mean, it's all documented there.
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Old 05-May-2012, 11:19   #11524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theLonely1 View Post
Maybe they just want to protect the controller atm, and they don't want to disclose Wii U hardware yet, so they just used the Wii for patent purposes. Is that feasible/legal? Anyone here well verse don patent law? So many questions,
I just took a look. It's given me a headache just scrolling to the bit that actually matters!!

A patent's meat, the bit that matters, are the claims, specifically the first claim which identifies what exactly is the new idea being patented. The rest of the document is just explanation and examples. Normally the words "one specific embodiment" or similar are used to say that what's described explicitly in the patent is not the only application, and if the patent can be contrived to cover other cases then that's intended (cast your patent as wide as possible to limit infringing/enable patent trolling).

As ever, the actual patented claim is utter crock that isn't worth the words someone's wasted to decribe all this:

Quote:
What is claimed is:
1. A controller device comprising:
a generally plate-shaped housing;
a display section provided on a front side of the housing;
a first operation section and a second operation section provided respectively on a left side and a right side of the display section above a center of the housing; and
a third operation section and a fourth operation section provided on a back side of the housing so as to generally correspond respectively to the first operation section and the second operation section on the front side of the housing.
That is, they are patenting a controller with a screen and controls on front and back. The rest of the claims are just vaguely expanding that notion with more controls and expanion ports, and a reference to inbuilt game processing in claim 19.

Quite why they feel the need to go into data flow diagrams and console layouts to patent this, who knows. Patent laywers really are an odd breed ('a front side of the housing'? There's more than one front side on this plate-shaped housing??).

Thus we can ignore the claims, and just fish around the rest of the patent for ideas. It could be that they dropped in the mainboard diagram accidentally, but as others say, it's more likely they used the Wii as reference. The specifics of that board have nothing to do with the claims being made so the don't need to be technically accurate. Things like the gun connection show intended application. I can't really see the COD fans going wild over that one...

All in all though, there's very little to see.
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Old 05-May-2012, 12:15   #11525
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http://www.tomsguide.com/us/microsof...ews-15088.html

Strange rumor
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