[french toast]

Originally Posted by dagamer

To re-iterate:

-Dual/quad core processors WP8
-Ram WP8
-GPU MSM8960 which will require WP8
-Bandwidth Umm... huh?
-1080p video recording Better ISP found in Snapdragon S4 again requiring WP8
-HD displays WP8
-Micro SD card slot WP8
-Decent storage in phone aka 32gb 64gb... actually, this one could come now...
-TV out/HDMI? unknown
-Different form factors..ie Qwerty keyboard, dual screens, etc. Qwerty has already been done, dual screens have flopped on Android. No one is going to try that again
-Slim profile handsets?? All-day battery life > slim phone IMO
-Decent gaming experiece/Lack of high quality apps/variety Unmanaged DirectX code coming in WP8

So yeah... Windows Phone 8 should be big.

-By bandwidth i meant Dual channel memory.
-I don't think microsoft wants big Storage in WP7..it wants you to use the cloud and grab your data!
-Despite Eflops protestations to the contrary...single core Wp7 phones Dont offer exceptional batterylife..compared to any phone.
-For some strange reason all WP7 handsets have not been thin..and by thin i mean < 9mm.
-Im not sure but don't think HDMI/DLNA is supported.

Yea REALLY looking forward to a wp8 Nokia...however that trojan horse elop is doing his level best to put even Nokia loyalty like me off..i mean after the burning ships memo fiasco you would think he would keep his opinions to himself...''Multi cores burn/waste your battery''

-

[dagamer]

Originally Posted by french toast

-By bandwidth i meant Dual channel memory.
-I don't think microsoft wants big Storage in WP7..it wants you to use the cloud and grab your data!
-Despite Eflops protestations to the contrary...single core Wp7 phones Dont offer exceptional batterylife..compared to any phone.
-For some strange reason all WP7 handsets have not been thin..and by thin i mean < 9mm.
-Im not sure but don't think HDMI/DLNA is supported.

Yea REALLY looking forward to a wp8 Nokia...however that trojan horse elop is doing his level best to put even Nokia loyalty like me off..i mean after the burning ships memo fiasco you would think he would keep his opinions to himself...''Multi cores burn/waste your battery''

-

Multi-core CPUs that are mismanaged waste battery life, but I'd rather he not make statements like that at all. Watching a few interviews that he's had, I get the sense that he knows better.

[french toast]

Just a quick one, Nokia Lumia 900 has topped the Amazon sales charts all week, holding 1st and 2nd spot most of that time untill one colour ran out!

Good news then

ifixit got there mucky paws on one and did there strip routine
Lumia900 BOM- $217 all in.
SGS2 Skyrocket-$237 all in.
Apple Iphone 4s-$188 all in (16gb)

http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/New...s-of-$209.aspx

Also reveals that RRP price (america at least) is quite low, which as i predicted would allow the phone to sell well if pushed..Nokiais finally getting the feature set/price point sorted.

[wco81]

Not sure Amazon is that big of an outlet for smart phones.

[hoho]

Originally Posted by dagamer

Those users are such a small percentage of the market that that is NOT the reason why Android has 50% marketshare. It's because the OS is free and on cheap phones that will probably never get updated.

There may be few of those users but their amount is still several times bigger than entire market share of WP today

Also, these are generally the people that are looking for a new phone and think WP might be an option. Most of them still go with android after they find out how limiting WP really is.

[Gubbi]

Originally Posted by french toast

ifixit got there mucky paws on one and did there strip routine
Lumia900 BOM- $217 all in.
Apple Iphone 4s-$188 all in (16gb)

Seems weird.

They estimate $58 for display+touch screen for the Lumia vs $37 for the 4s. Is AMOLED really that expensive ?

They also state $38 for "wireless" section for the Lumia vs $23.50 for the 4s. That's a $15 premium for 4G lte, which seems excessive IMO considering DC-HSPA+ can reach 4G speeds.

Cheers

[Pressure]

Originally Posted by Gubbi

Seems weird.

They estimate $58 for display+touch screen for the Lumia vs $37 for the 4s. Is AMOLED really that expensive ?

They also state $38 for "wireless" section for the Lumia vs $23.50 for the 4s. That's a $15 premium for 4G lte, which seems excessive IMO considering DC-HSPA+ can reach 4G speeds.

Cheers

No no, in Europe 4G is 4G and not 3G.

And yes, AMOLED is much more expensive and none can match the prices Apple gets because of the quantity they buy.

[Florin]

Originally Posted by dagamer

Those users are such a small percentage of the market that that is NOT the reason why Android has 50% marketshare. It's because the OS is free and on cheap phones that will probably never get updated.

Android is sort of free, yes, although most phone manufacturers pay a license fee for the Google app suite.

Of course, WP7 does one better than free. Microsoft has to actually pay manufacturers to consider using it.

I'd like to see evidence for your statement that best selling Android phones are 'cheap', and do not get at least one or two upgrades, let alone a jump across major OS revisions.

[wco81]

MS may be making more money from the license fees it has extracted from several Android manufacturers than from WP7.

[eastmen]

Originally Posted by ToTTenTranz

- By the end of 2011, WP7 had been selling for ~1,5 years in all key markets (Germany, UK, USA, etc.), had ~20 models from 8 makers.
- By the end 2011, MeeGo had been selling for ~3 months with 1 model from 1 maker, blocked from all the key markets.
- Even though it was blocked in most major markets, in Q4 2011 Nokia alone sold ~2.5x more MeeGo handsets than all WP7 from all makers combined in the whole world.

Therefore, that statement makes no sense.


.

would like to point out that windows phone launched in the USA october of 2010. So it wouldn't have been 1.5 years in all key markets.


Oct 21 2010 Europe / Australia
Nov 8 2010 USA

So by the end of 2011 it had been out barely a year.

[eastmen]

Originally Posted by wco81

MS may be making more money from the license fees it has extracted from several Android manufacturers than from WP7.

Mabye , but that may not allways be the case.


Also andriod will be facing some major hurdles as they have just lost against apple

[dagamer]

Originally Posted by Florin

Android is sort of free, yes, although most phone manufacturers pay a license fee for the Google app suite.

Of course, WP7 does one better than free. Microsoft has to actually pay manufacturers to consider using it.

I'd like to see evidence for your statement that best selling Android phones are 'cheap', and do not get at least one or two upgrades, let alone a jump across major OS revisions.

I would assume that the value adds and bug fixes that manufacturers create are not made for free. Certainly all of the OS-level mucking that goes on in Android phones to skin them becomes $0 when an OEM buys a license for Windows Phone. And remember, each carrier wants custom phones for their customers, so it's not a one OS for them all kind of approach.

[dagamer]

Originally Posted by Gubbi

Seems weird.

They estimate $58 for display+touch screen for the Lumia vs $37 for the 4s. Is AMOLED really that expensive ?

They also state $38 for "wireless" section for the Lumia vs $23.50 for the 4s. That's a $15 premium for 4G lte, which seems excessive IMO considering DC-HSPA+ can reach 4G speeds.

Cheers

Samsung is the only serious manufacturer of AMOLED displays so if you want one, you have to go to them.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by dagamer

To re-iterate:

-Dual/quad core processors WP8
-1080p video recording Better ISP found in Snapdragon S4 again requiring WP8

Both of those (well Dual core at least) are rumored for the WP7 Apollo update. So there's a chance we'll see them in WP7 before WP8 launches.

However, MS is focusing on lower performance (and hence cheaper) SOCs first in order to target the low end smartphone market/feature phone market. I'm going to guess that this is likely at the request of Nokia as they still move quite a bit of phones in the cheaper price brackets.

That will also allow it to compete better against Android in emerging markets as Android has quite a few cheap almost disposable smartphones.

Regards,
SB

[hoho]

Originally Posted by dagamer

And remember, each carrier wants custom phones for their customers, so it's not a one OS for them all kind of approach.

... and going with WP would mean they are not allowed to do any UI customization and even HW specs are pretty much frozen.

[Ike Turner]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Both of those (well Dual core at least) are rumored for the WP7 Apollo update. So there's a chance we'll see them in WP7 before WP8 launches.

FYI: Apollo = Windows Phone 8. There's no such thing as WP7 Apollo.

[Florin]

Nokia's shares hit 15 year low as providers complain about Lumia line.

[eastmen]

Well I think we all agree that Nokia should have gone with andriod instead of Windows phone. I mean after all HTC is fast becoming the biggest cell phone company in the world ...... Wait what.... they posted losses again ? Wait they are removing the CEO ?


It seems very hard to compete with apple who sells tens of millions of the same phone every year or samsung who make almost everything inside of the phones. Nokia would have not even been a blip on the andriod side with all the competition

[ToTTenTranz]

Of course Nokia shouldn't have gone with either Android or WP7.

Right now, it's crystal clear that their best possible path would be to keep their rising plan of a Symbian->MeeGo transition. Not losing all their 3rd party developers through Qt, most of their loyal customers, and pumping out hundreds of thousands of smartphones weekly through their own factories for a low price would have been the most obvious choice.

Many can regurgitate the american tech-news' flawed theories all they want, about Symbian already being in the toilet when the transition was announced. Up until February 11th, Symbian was still the most sold mobile O.S. by a fair margin, and the number of sales was rising.
They were losing marketshare to Android obviously as did every other mobile O.S. to Google's explosion, but it doesn't mean it was already going through a slow death, not with MeeGo in the horizon at least.
Sales were rising with Symbian^3. Profits were rising with Symbian^3. MeeGo was coming.


Even if all MeeGo handsets were terribly delayed as some might say, they would have loads of high-end/high-margins handsets with U8500 and Medfields to sell, by now. Plus, they wouldn't have to put their latest and best camera tech into a dead-on-arrival Symbian model either.

Right now, I think the only hope for Nokia is to get lots of Windows RT handhelds out in the market before they spend all those ~$7 billion of cash on losses and resort to selling even more assets.
I think if the time comes when they have to sell Navteq to in order to keep functioning will be the point of no return from a complete sell-out (to Microsoft, of course).


Regarding the reactions from the European carriers:

Sceptics among operators say the sleek, neon-coloured phones are overpriced for what is not an innovative product, cite a lack of marketing dollars put behind the phones, and image problems caused by glitches in the battery and software of the early models.
(...)
"No one comes into the store and asks for a Windows phone," said an executive in charge of mobile devices at a European operator, which has sold the Lumia 800 and 710 since December.
(...)
"Nokia have given themselves a double challenge: to restore their credibility in terms of making hardware smartphones and succeed with the Microsoft Windows operating system, which lags in the market," the executive said.
(...)
"If the Lumia with the same hardware came with Android in it and not Windows, it would be much easier to sell," he said.
(...)
Operators are also frustrated that cash-rich Microsoft is not spending more on marketing Nokia Windows phones.

"The operators say to Nokia: 'We will try to bail you out if you and Microsoft come with the marketing money,'" says telecom consultant John Strand. "But even if the operators start to give away the Nokias for free, it will not make Nokia a success," said Strand, who works with many of the top European carriers.
(...)
"Ultimately, Nokia and Windows are challengers and they either need to come to market with a really disruptive, innovative product or a huge marketing budget to create client demand. So far they have done neither."

What was that about everything being ok in the long run because Microsoft has their back?
Maybe the Nokia+Intel Qt/MeeGo alliance was as much of a threat to Microsoft as Apple or Google ever were... as it was certainly Microsoft's first demand in this transition.

[wco81]

If you think about it, iPhone and Android sales took off within 2 years of their first models being released.

So WP7 is running out of time. If it hasn't made an impression on enough consumers, it's unlikely to reach critical mass.

Droid had a big advertising campaign as well as promotions in the US, specifically a lot of BOGO deals months after they launched. Apple went to the contract model on the second iPhone, dropping from $600 then $400 then $200 upfront.

If MS/Nokia are already saying wait until WP8, doesn't that kill whatever momentum that WP7 has now?

[french toast]

The saving grace is the almost Appleish religious following WP7 is picking up..and almost exclusively Nokia...the Lumia 900 has got stirling reviews all round, especially after the software fix, Nokias 100 re-bate went down well, i suspct if they price it accordingly and market accordingly Lumia 900 will sell very well in europe also..the reuters article was basing that off european carriers who have not had Lumia 900 or the increased marketing blitz that came with it.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/0...83G08Z20120417

Ilthough i agree with HOHO and TOTTENTRANZ that they should have stuck with the original plan (Symbian>Meego) i will go out on a limb and say that WP8 is going to rock and sell very well.

[hoho]

Originally Posted by french toast

Ilthough i agree with HOHO and TOTTENTRANZ that they should have stuck with the original plan (Symbian>Meego) i will go out on a limb and say that WP8 is going to rock and sell very well.

It will likely sell better than WP7 (and that isn't saying much ) but I'm absolutely certain it won't be "rocking", at least not in a way I want a phone to rock and I'm sure I'm not the only one

[Dr Evil]

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=24476

I guess the Lumia 900 could be doing worse... Might have to get one and see how it rocks

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by ToTTenTranz

Regarding the reactions from the European carriers:

It certainly is interesting that while Nokia and WP7 are getting blasted in Europe, especially the UK, the exact opposite is true in the US.

So while Nokia has in the past struggled heavily in the US, it is now faced with demand outstripping their ability to supply phones.

While Europe which was previously a bastion for Nokia is turning its nose up at them.

It's also interesting to compare how much carriers have to actually pay to sell the various devices... 600-700 euros for each iPhone sold. Samsung with the highest priced Android phones going for 300-500 euros for each of their Android phone. That's the price for the EU carriers to do business with those respective companies. I'm wondering how much Nokia is getting for each Lumia sold by a carrier. BTW - if those numbers are incorrect blame Dailytech as I'm getting those numbers from there.

Either way. The Lumia 900 is AT&T's top selling phone currently. And the Lumia 710 is one of T-mobile's top selling phones.

Basically if a carrier decides to push it, people will buy it. If a carrier decides not to push it, they'll do whatever they can do to make it unnoticeable to consumers and hence consumer's are unlikely to buy it.

[edit] Thinking about this some, I think part of it is that since Nokia wasn't doing well in the US, it's not like Americans have any residual fondness for a dead smartphone operating system and hence feeling unreasonable hatred for WP7 on Nokia devices. Hence, in the US, people are just comparing Nokia + WP7 to iPhone and/or Android devices on a relatively level playing field.

Regards,
SB

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by Ike Turner

FYI: Apollo = Windows Phone 8. There's no such thing as WP7 Apollo.

Whoops. Shows how much I follow smartphone news in general. I'd just automatically assumed it was for WP7.

The only reason I even bothered to start following even minimal smartphone related news was due to Win8 and the potential to run my desktop apps on a smartphone. If that happens there's a very teeny tiny chance I may become ever so slightly interested in a smartphone.

I still find it unlikely I'll ever bother to buy something other than a feature phone, unless feature phones completely disappear from the market.

Regards,
SB