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Old 16-Mar-2012, 13:35   #1426
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main feature of a console is one of the bullet points posted on the box it came in. or example the retnia screen o the ipad. I some how apple disabled that screen it be disabling a main eature.


Also my f key no longer works or some reason
I didnīt find a complete list of points, but at least this one:

http://media.ps3scene.com/images/ps3...ch-unit/02.jpg

There is no discussion that it was a feature, but a main feature, a bullet point that aligns with a Retina Ipad display? no ucking way (see what i did there it wasnīt even a part of the slim afaik.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 13:53   #1427
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To put it more concisely:

Using "smart" DRM on the cart can allow publishers to use more aggressive (or complete) first-owner content lockdowns while simultaneously preventing offline gamers from losing out on any of the content they have paid for*.

*Because locking people out of content they've paid for sucks.

The bluray games haven't been cracked...
If you re-read my comments you'll see that I'm very specifically not talking about piracy, but about the used market.

You know those single use codes that come packed in with games now? The ones where you have to log on and enter a long alphanumeric code like you're an Amiga / PC owner from the 1990s? They're designed to gimp second hand copies of the games to discourage people from buying them.

The trouble is that people that can't go on-line only access the gimped version. There's no point buying the game new, there's strong discouragement to buying the second hand version (that's the whole point) and so you should pretty much avoid the game period. What's more, there's no way for users on the same system (brothers, or husband and wife, or dad and son, or gran and granddaughter (lol Wii)) to both access the content even though they're sharing the same physical copy of the game on the same physical machine - it goes against the traditional idea of what a family console actually is.

What's more, the first-user-only code-locked content on the disk can't be part of the core experience because the game has to work without it because some new (even full price) customers won't have access to it. So it inhabits a shitty middle ground.

So again, the fact that Bluray games haven't been cracked is completely irrelevant to the issue I'm talking about. I'm not talking about piracy.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 14:53   #1428
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So again, the fact that Bluray games haven't been cracked is completely irrelevant to the issue I'm talking about. I'm not talking about piracy.
I am. "Cracking" is extremely relevant to the issue of "DRM", whatever the DRM is used for.

I was talking about your cart-level DRM not being an advantage, nor providing any additional feature over hybrid bluray. A cart DRM would be better if the disk based DRM had been cracked, or if it provides additional features. If it doesn't have either advantages, then the cart solution is pointless.

So, how does a cart allows this DRM usage you speak of, which a hybrid bluray doesn't?
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 15:49   #1429
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I misunderstood your point. I probably switched off (I know I shouldn't have!) after your first comment about DRM cracking - I consider DRM cracking to be a separate issue to DRM aims, but you don't and that's fair enough.

By "hybrid Bluray" I can see now that you're talking about blurays with a writeable area:

(http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=1402)

I was thinking that the cart might need to run a simple check on the console to test for integrity of the console, but if that wasn't needed and you could do it with pure writeable data (which would be preferable as it would be cheaper) then yeah perhaps you could do it on writeable Bluray disk.

Looking at Wikipedia, the IH-BD (Intra-Hybrid Blu-ray) seems to be the closest thing I can find to what you're describing. It's a 25GB read only layer and a 25GB write-once layer. The only blurb I can find on these drives says they'll require "newly-designed hardware", but I can't find out how much the drives and the media cost. Would also limit you to 25GB of data.

I can't find anything from the last year on IH-BD, despite the announcement being in 2010. What are the costs?
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 16:19   #1430
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I misunderstood your point. I probably switched off (I know I shouldn't have!) after your first comment about DRM cracking - I consider DRM cracking to be a separate issue to DRM aims, but you don't and that's fair enough.

By "hybrid Bluray" I can see now that you're talking about blurays with a writeable area:

(http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.p...postcount=1402)

I was thinking that the cart might need to run a simple check on the console to test for integrity of the console, but if that wasn't needed and you could do it with pure writeable data (which would be preferable as it would be cheaper) then yeah perhaps you could do it on writeable Bluray disk.

Looking at Wikipedia, the IH-BD (Intra-Hybrid Blu-ray) seems to be the closest thing I can find to what you're describing. It's a 25GB read only layer and a 25GB write-once layer. The only blurb I can find on these drives says they'll require "newly-designed hardware", but I can't find out how much the drives and the media cost. Would also limit you to 25GB of data.

I can't find anything from the last year on IH-BD, despite the announcement being in 2010. What are the costs?
Sorry, yes I meant IHBD, or successors of it with more layers like BDXL. They said it might need a firmware update for the drives, but from what I understand it's practically only a matter of focussing range and power calibration, the drive doesn't cost more. No idea about disk cost, but if Sony wants it for the PS4, they can press them without having it even in the "standard", I would guess it won't be any more expensive than BDXL, it's just gluing the layers which they are already doing in the presses.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 16:36   #1431
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People are playing downloaded copies of uncharted 3 which is a holiday 2011 title and one of sonys biggest games. So I don't see the problem. Sure they might be lagging behind offical updates , but if the games still work no one cares because the other things the playstation 3 is able to do with new firmware can be done on any number of other devices
Sure, but none of that means blu-ray games are hacked. This IS technological forum and you should be able to grasp the basics rather than troll.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 17:05   #1432
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Sorry, yes I meant IHBD, or successors of it with more layers like BDXL. They said it might need a firmware update for the drives, but from what I understand it's practically only a matter of focussing range and power calibration, the drive doesn't cost more. No idea about disk cost, but if Sony wants it for the PS4, they can press them without having it even in the "standard", I would guess it won't be any more expensive than BDXL, it's just gluing the layers which they are already doing in the presses.
Thanks.

In that case Sony may well be able to move to a custom Bluray format that supports a writeable layer and as many pressed layers as they need (initially 1 x 25GB layer would probably be plenty). As Sony manufacture both drives and disks they would seem ideally placed to build some kind of offline-friendly, paper-code free used game management system into the media.

Would MS be as confident trying to use bluray in this manner, given that they have no expertise in this area and that there is no-one currently making the drives or the disks (and that they may be coming to market before Sony)? Flash might be expensive but at least it's a very well know quantity, there are several suppliers and there's an enormous market continually driving prices down. And if Sony plan to use a writeable layer in their DRM then MS would seemingly have to respond somehow.

If both MS and Sony do bring a better used game management system to their consoles (and it appears they both could - thanks for the BD info) then it'll definitely have publisher support and used game resellers will have no option but to take a big kick in the balls. Maybe the WiiU is going to end up getting a lot of love from highstreet game stores.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 17:30   #1433
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hybrid bluray is very interesting but my opinion is that burned optical is unreliable - would suck to have your DLC skip or be unreadable especially if you paid for it.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 18:49   #1434
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hybrid bluray is very interesting but my opinion is that burned optical is unreliable - would suck to have your DLC skip or be unreadable especially if you paid for it.
Strong Error Correction
Data Duplication
Write Verify

Just writing keys to allow DLC, you can write the key at a dozen different places on the disk, and it would only take a few kilobytes of space, it unlocks data already on the ROM area, or allows to download/reburn DLC for that machine ID. 25GB is a lot of space for duplication and error correction, if it's used only for patches, keys and DLC.

Other options aren't any more reliable. You can scratch a disk, break a flash cart with static electricity, your internal flash and/or hard drive is also unreliable. The console itself will RROD/YLOD eventually.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 22:09   #1435
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I just donīt see them going with this approach, itīs more complicated, takes away the ideal way of using cheap "of the shelf" Blu-Ray drives and it only accomplishes user agony when they end up with a "self destruct" disc.

The only sane way to keep the used market under control.. wait that is not the real way to say it.. The best way to milk and maximize their product is by keeping it "warm" and attractive, release free DLC, add free maps to the multiplayer parts and if needed charge for online activation. I mentioned it before, and i will again, Burnout did this right. Besides avoiding that the market gets a lot of cheap used games, you also keep the price up on your game when you constantly adds value to it. The lifetime is simply longer.
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Old 16-Mar-2012, 23:31   #1436
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once you have a blu ray burner which can handle dual or multiple layer discs (as standard on modern DVD burners), a hybrid blu ray would be not much more than a software hack.

those weird techs, including triple layer HD-DVD and blu ray, are made with exploiting the widespread mass produced tech in mind. they are cheap if adopted.

I still find it weird, especially you cannot tell a pristine bluray from one that has been written to.
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 04:43   #1437
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Sure, but none of that means blu-ray games are hacked. This IS technological forum and you should be able to grasp the basics rather than troll.
I'm not sure what your trying to say.


Are you claiming that although people are able to get all the contents off disc and then burn it to another bluray and play the game on hacked consoles that bluray is in fact not hacked ?

I don't know how you've reached that point .
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 16:33   #1438
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I guess it depends on the definition of cracked, and what the protection was designed to achieve, and whether it is still working as expected. i.e. If I look over your shoulder and get your password, I can't claim that SHA-1 has been cracked, but you need to change your password. If the system wasn't designed to allow changing your password... the system is indeed cracked. On that basis, DVD has been fully cracked, but bluray is still operating by design, as long as the goal of the protection is to mitigate widespread piracy/counterfeiting.
  • The PS3 hypervisor was cracked at one point, but that's not really a vulnerability of bluray. That hole is now closed, a few consoles in the wild can play "some" pirated games, and these can no longer access the PS-Store, nor play online, because the new firmware haven't been cracked. The sales impact is minor, because it cannot become widespread.
  • As far as I know, the ID of the disks is still secure, this prevents the production of large volume bootlegs, to a certain extent.
  • The cracked PS3 hypervisor could, at some point, fake the console ID (allows circumventing a ban), but newer firmware closed that hole too. Console ID is therefore still secure.
We can conclude that if the PS4/Wuu/Xbox720 are using BluRay, as long as the hypervisor remains secure, the bluray protection works as expected and prevents bootlegs and piracy. Bluray is not cracked.
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 16:57   #1439
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I'm not sure what your trying to say.


Are you claiming that although people are able to get all the contents off disc and then burn it to another bluray and play the game on hacked consoles that bluray is in fact not hacked ?

I don't know how you've reached that point .

Yes, I'm saying that it doesn't matter at all that people can make images of games and burn them.

The technical thing there is that pressed blu-rays have different physical structure than burnt blu-rays. PS3 drive detects these physical differences and prevents running a copied image. There is no hack existing that goes around this protection. This same thing would have protected xbox360 too on dvd, but microsoft was stupid enough not to protect dvd firmware hence enabling hackers to rewrite new firmware that works with burnt game discs too.

It doesn't matter at all people can make images of ps3 games and distribute them. Being able to make a copy is by design, it doesn't matter because you cannot burn an image that looks same as a pressed copy and the copy will not run.

There is some old firmwares that have vulnerability(vulnerability has nothing to do with blu-ray, it would be same issue no matter what media was used) that allows running pirated games. These people who have stayed in old firmware are small minority that doesn't really matter(because the huge mass of ps3 owners cannot pirate)

In non technical terms below is status of PS3 pirating

There is no way to run pirated images on newish ps3 firmwares.

There is no way to downgrade to old ps3 firmware.

If one had old firmware in past and updated pirating is not currently possible (see downgrade).

If you go to best buy and buy a ps3 there is no way to currently run pirated games on that ps3.

If you still have old enough firmware you can pirate but you might need patched game images. It's a hassle but doable. People cannot get to this point by downgrading(no downgrade prevents mass piracy, only those who stayed behind are here). The hack still has nothing to do with blu-ray security and didn't compromise the blu-ray game format.


The blu-ray games is and stays unhacked. The hack in old firmwares completely bypassed whatever media was used and went into OS internals. Blu-ray firmware in ps3 was never successfully modified by any hacker(compare to xbox360).
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 18:14   #1440
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Oups, I was out of the loop for a long time, but it seems they can now run self-signed code on the hard-drive. This is still not a flaw in bluray, but a flaw in the PS3 hypervisor (once you can run code, it's over). You still can't "copy" a bluray game disk, each one needs to be cracked and patched individually. The PS3 code-signing is what was compromised, it has nothing to do with the physical media, that hack would have compromised any media security, including hardware dongles, and carts. The reverse situation isn't true, however. If the physical media was cracked (which is what we're talking about), it would allow replicating disks without having to crack the code-signing. So the bluray security layer is still doing what it's supposed to do, you can't make exact copies, and your code can detect it.
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 18:21   #1441
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Oups, I was out of the loop for a long time, but it seems they can now run self-signed code on the hard-drive. This is still not a flaw in bluray, but a flaw in the PS3 hypervisor (once you can run code, it's over). You still can't "copy" a bluray game disk, each one needs to be cracked and patched individually. The PS3 code-signing is what was compromised, it has nothing to do with the physical media, that hack would have compromised any media security, including hardware dongles, and carts. The reverse situation isn't true, however. If the physical media was cracked (which is what we're talking about), it would allow replicating disks without having to crack the code-signing. So the bluray security layer is still doing what it's supposed to do, you can't make exact copies, and your code can detect it.
Where do you read that? Or are you meaning the old firmwares? I have been semi watching what's happening in ps3 hacking scene and those "I can run code on ps3" proved out to be lies so far.

AFAIK. this is the status and there is absolutely no running custom code on latest firmwares: http://ps3.dashhacks.com/2012/01/19/...-status-update
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 18:48   #1442
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Where do you read that? Or are you meaning the old firmwares? I have been semi watching what's happening in ps3 hacking scene and those "I can run code on ps3" proved out to be lies so far.

AFAIK. this is the status and there is absolutely no running custom code on latest firmwares: http://ps3.dashhacks.com/2012/01/19/...-status-update
Thanks, that good to know. I just googled to see what's up... I guess I was a victim of "someone said so on the internet, so it must be true."

I'm amazed that they can still keep it closed after 5 years, despite the code-signing being partially compromised, it has to be a record in the history of consoles or something. Compared with Apple, they come out with a new hardware and it's jailbroken within 24 hours, every single time. It's a record in the opposite direction.
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 18:54   #1443
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Thanks, that good to know. I just googled to see what's up... I guess I was a victim of "someone said so on the internet, so it must be true."

I'm amazed that they can still keep it closed after 5 years, despite the code-signing being partially compromised, it has to be a record in the history of consoles or something. Compared with Apple, they come out with a new hardware and it's jailbroken within 24 hours, every single time. It's a record in the opposite direction.
Yeah, I wonder how in the hell sony was able pull this rabbit out of the hat. Definitely impressive feat of unhacking from sony and world's first at that probably.
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 19:29   #1444
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In 2011 GE was said to have made some major breakthroughs in Holographic disk technology and looking to license and partner with others. I don't think it will be available next gen but it was curious to read how they were not only were targeting archiving but also, "onsumer entertainment systems". iirc InPhase and Nintendo had had an agreement at some point. Again, I don't think it will be in next gen but it seems they are at least as fast, hold 500GB, can read and write, and read CD/DVD/Blu Ray. Obviously there are skeptics about it ever coming to market and price, at least in InPhase's case, was exorbitant. But if they can get the read speeds up (in theory the higher density should help if they can manage reading all the content). InPhase was claiming 80MB read and 20MB write speeds (MB, not Mb) so it is a curious tech.
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Old 18-Mar-2012, 20:18   #1445
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In 2011 GE was said to have made some major breakthroughs in Holographic disk technology and looking to license and partner with others. I don't think it will be available next gen but it was curious to read how they were not only were targeting archiving but also, "onsumer entertainment systems". iirc InPhase and Nintendo had had an agreement at some point. Again, I don't think it will be in next gen but it seems they are at least as fast, hold 500GB, can read and write, and read CD/DVD/Blu Ray. Obviously there are skeptics about it ever coming to market and price, at least in InPhase's case, was exorbitant. But if they can get the read speeds up (in theory the higher density should help if they can manage reading all the content). InPhase was claiming 80MB read and 20MB write speeds (MB, not Mb) so it is a curious tech.
Where the holographic technology can be really interesting is their claim of using it with non-disk spinning version, a moving head on a flat square, basically. THAT could be very cool in the future. Crystal Cubes like in the movies
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Old 19-Mar-2012, 04:53   #1446
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In 2011 GE was said to have made some major breakthroughs in Holographic disk technology and looking to license and partner with others. I don't think it will be available next gen but it was curious to read how they were not only were targeting archiving but also, "onsumer entertainment systems". iirc InPhase and Nintendo had had an agreement at some point. Again, I don't think it will be in next gen but it seems they are at least as fast, hold 500GB, can read and write, and read CD/DVD/Blu Ray. Obviously there are skeptics about it ever coming to market and price, at least in InPhase's case, was exorbitant. But if they can get the read speeds up (in theory the higher density should help if they can manage reading all the content). InPhase was claiming 80MB read and 20MB write speeds (MB, not Mb) so it is a curious tech.
Well if GE wants to be the winner of the next gen storage war , we all learned from sony to just shove it into a console and pay for studio support.

So if GE wants to do it , they could certianly subsidise the price of the drives and discs until they start making money off it
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Old 19-Mar-2012, 06:25   #1447
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Well if GE wants to be the winner of the next gen storage war , we all learned from sony to just shove it into a console and pay for studio support.

So if GE wants to do it , they could certianly subsidise the price of the drives and discs until they start making money off it
Or do something even smarter, even though it on paper doesn't stand a chance, doesn't have the backing of "anyone" except themselves, use Microsoft money and try to buy studio support, just to annoy Panasonic and Sony! Your disdain for Sony really has a tendency to derail the discussions, and when you make a point which is then proven false you never ever comment on it, as if the discussion never happened, you have good points in this discussion, i just don't see why your blind hate absolutely has to cloud them all up and take away the focus.

Topic: Isn't there any "new" optical media that focuses on seek time? I thought about making a disc where there data is read via a laser that isnīt on a sled, but is focused via a mirror to the disc, first and foremost making the "sled" with the optics alot lighter, and therefor faster, and if possible make it so that the disc can be read with the laser at "angles" so the sled can cover a larger area from one spot than just directly over it. I know, fantasy, but hey, cutting the seek time would really help
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Old 19-Mar-2012, 14:21   #1448
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Topic: Isn't there any "new" optical media that focuses on seek time? I thought about making a disc where there data is read via a laser that isnīt on a sled, but is focused via a mirror to the disc, first and foremost making the "sled" with the optics alot lighter, and therefor faster, and if possible make it so that the disc can be read with the laser at "angles" so the sled can cover a larger area from one spot than just directly over it. I know, fantasy, but hey, cutting the seek time would really help
That is what is used in so called laser scanning microscopes (more my field than electronics). Where you use a laser beam which you focus on your specimen with a lens and with a mirror you change its position to do an xy scan of you object (like good old tv beams) to illuminate it and get your picture.

The problem would be that you would most likely need to be at a considerable distance to be able to "scan" the whole disc and not basically be by its surface like now, but yes most likely it would give much faster seek times like that.

I was thinking though something along those line but use instead what we have in so called spinning disc confocal microscopes. There you take that one laser beam and split it into to thousands of beams through a fast spinning pinhole, all focused which illuminate all of your sample at the same time. I was thinking that would be a cool way to read a disc, then you would be having all its data almost all the time available at what ever time point, but the distance part would still be a problem. Hmm, maybe is should patent that...
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Old 19-Mar-2012, 14:32   #1449
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Or do something even smarter, even though it on paper doesn't stand a chance, doesn't have the backing of "anyone" except themselves, use Microsoft money and try to buy studio support, just to annoy Panasonic and Sony! Your disdain for Sony really has a tendency to derail the discussions, and when you make a point which is then proven false you never ever comment on it, as if the discussion never happened, you have good points in this discussion, i just don't see why your blind hate absolutely has to cloud them all up and take away the focus.
Why doesn't it stand a chance on paper ? It clearly out matches bluray. And alot of current bluray hardware wont be able to play even the tripple layer discs . So people will have to buy new hardware to go any further with Bluray. IF Holographic discs offer advantages over Blruay then why wouldn't we be all for it . Its also not the first time one group would create a competing product . Why should we be happy with a single format . We have diffrent tablet and phone makers , diffrent flash makers. Why not diffrent optical format makers. Why must the industry rally behind a single one ?


Quote:
Topic: Isn't there any "new" optical media that focuses on seek time? I thought about making a disc where there data is read via a laser that isnīt on a sled, but is focused via a mirror to the disc, first and foremost making the "sled" with the optics alot lighter, and therefor faster, and if possible make it so that the disc can be read with the laser at "angles" so the sled can cover a larger area from one spot than just directly over it. I know, fantasy, but hey, cutting the seek time would really help
There used to be a CD drive back in the day called truespeed or something like that. It used two lasers I believe to give steadier read times. IT was the best cd drive out in the day.

I'd flip that around however and think about a slot loaded disc that had the info on both sides and the top and bottom both having a laser to read them. You should be able to get twice the data transfered.
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Old 19-Mar-2012, 15:50   #1450
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Originally Posted by Platon View Post
That is what is used in so called laser scanning microscopes (more my field than electronics). Where you use a laser beam which you focus on your specimen with a lens and with a mirror you change its position to do an xy scan of you object (like good old tv beams) to illuminate it and get your picture.

The problem would be that you would most likely need to be at a considerable distance to be able to "scan" the whole disc and not basically be by its surface like now, but yes most likely it would give much faster seek times like that.

I was thinking though something along those line but use instead what we have in so called spinning disc confocal microscopes. There you take that one laser beam and split it into to thousands of beams through a fast spinning pinhole, all focused which illuminate all of your sample at the same time. I was thinking that would be a cool way to read a disc, then you would be having all its data almost all the time available at what ever time point, but the distance part would still be a problem. Hmm, maybe is should patent that...
So in our patent here, maybe we should stop spinging the disc and start spining the mirror/laser instead?

In my original patent i thought about having the laser move as usual, but since it didnīt have to travel the whole disc width to read everything it would still be faster, so i guess it wouldnīt need to be so far away from the disc?
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