Welcome, Unregistered.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Reply
Old 01-Jun-2011, 11:12   #551
Ailuros
Epsilon plus three
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Chania
Posts: 8,500
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ToTTenTranz View Post
That was exactly the info I was looking for.

By increasing the number of cores, one assumes the purpose is to also increase the number of rendered pixels, increased geometry, post-processing effects, higher-resolution textures, etc.
And by doing so, the SGX5 architecture would naturally need to also increase the memory bandwidth available for the whole GPU (and not memory bandwidth per-core), or the graphics subsystem would face a bottleneck eventually.


Maybe for not using the right terms, the answers I was getting were not for the question I made, hence all the confusion.
It's perfectly reasonable to ask for an explanation in such a case. Unless I've understood something wrong bandwidth requirements will increase for N amount of more workload, but it's fairly irrelevant if you'd have one single GPU with say 12 pipelines or a MP3 with 4 pipelines each.
__________________
People are more violently opposed to fur than leather; because it's easier to harass rich ladies than motorcycle gangs.
Ailuros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-Jun-2011, 14:27   #552
JohnH
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 580
Default

To put this simply, generally more pixels/s = more bytes/s, however the relationship isn't linear due to sharing of data wthin caches.

MP itself, or at least our implemenation of it, has negligible additional cost so it's use doesn't particularly influence how efficently we use memory.

John.

Last edited by JohnH; 01-Jun-2011 at 16:36.
JohnH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-Jun-2011, 16:52   #553
Exophase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,938
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RudeCurve View Post
Isn't the main benefit of TBDRs is that you don't need to go off-chip as IMRs meaning you need less bandwidth for a given workload?
I'm assuming you meant to say "as much as IMRs" there, not claim that you don't have to go off-chip at all. That's the benefit of the "TB" part, which saves on render-target bandwidth. Mainly by reducing standard workloads to a single stream to the framebuffer instead of having multiple writes per overdrawn pixel or read-modify-writes for alpha blending, and not having to update a depth/stencil buffer off-chip (note that depth buffer compression techniques on modern IMRs will help reduce the number of times you have to update the raw buffer due to overdraw, but you can still count on at least once per pixel, I think)

Render to texture probably still goes off chip then back on, I wouldn't expect there's any optimization bypassing this in the case where the texture is used in the same tile, which is probably not all that common..

The "DR" part saves compute resources and bandwidth, mainly by preventing texture lookups for occluded pixels. Of course this only translates to bandwidth savings when the texture isn't in cache.

On the flip side more bandwidth is used for vertex processing vs an IMR because the vertex stream has to be output back to main memory in the form of binned data, then read it back in the tile processing stages. Some claim that this is something like "doubling" the bandwidth, but in reality it's a lot less because the binned data doesn't include anything that is frustum or backface culled (latter is usually somewhere near 50% the triangles) and it's compressed. And not all data has to be read for every stage.. and with indexed vertexes on an IMR you can't stream all the vertexes straight to the GPU, what you're indexing has to be resident in memory first, and for static data it has to be read from memory anyway. With a shared memory device I think it'd look something like this:

IMR:
- CPU writes vertexes with all data to RAM
- CPU writes vertex indexes to GPU command FIFO
- GPU reads + shades vertexes with all data from vertex cache which reads from RAM where necessary, dispatches for rendering

Tile based:
- CPU writes vertexes with all data to RAM
- CPU writes vertex indexes to GPU command FIFO
- GPU reads vertex clip-space coordinates from RAM, culls/clips, then passing reads the rest of the vertex data, compresses, and writes to tile bin (and some additional bandwidth for maintaining the tiling data structures, which I'm sure are cached to some extent)
- GPU reads from tile bin to render the tile

There is some bandwidth increase as well where the tile binner has to create new vertexes or where vertexes get reproduced for where triangles get split across/included in multiple tiles. It'd actually be interesting to see some figures in just how many additional vertexes are created for a tiler that splits triangles. I've heard that Mali and maybe others don't split triangles at all and render the whole thing in each tile they're present in with guard-band clipping. If true I wonder what the actual cost of guard-band is, if it's something that scales per number of scanlines or even worse, has to reject individual pixels that fall outside of it (there's no way that'd be true for a tiler right..?)
Exophase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-Jun-2011, 17:47   #554
JohnH
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 580
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Exophase View Post
There is some bandwidth increase as well where the tile binner has to create new vertexes or where vertexes get reproduced for where triangles get split across/included in multiple tiles. It'd actually be interesting to see some figures in just how many additional vertexes are created for a tiler that splits triangles. I've heard that Mali and maybe others don't split triangles at all and render the whole thing in each tile they're present in with guard-band clipping. If true I wonder what the actual cost of guard-band is, if it's something that scales per number of scanlines or even worse, has to reject individual pixels that fall outside of it (there's no way that'd be true for a tiler right..?)
I'm not aware of any tiler that splits triangles that cross tiles, although trangles will be read and setup for each overlapped tile. There is also no need for evaluation of pixels outside of the tile, crudely for each pixel in tile just test if it lies within triangle and there are many ways minimise the number of tests i.e. you don't actually have to evaluate every pixel within a tile if a triangle doesn't cover them.

John.
JohnH is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-Jun-2011, 20:52   #555
Exophase
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Cleveland, OH
Posts: 1,938
Default

Ah I see, yeah I don't know why I figured you'd need geometric clipping against the tile edges...

So I guess it's something like this:
- For tile coordinate x/y, for each triangle in bin (that isn't optimized out from the test somehow) convert to barycentric depth representation of triangle
- If it's outside of 0 to 1, reject
- Convert to screen-space depth and compare to see if it's the front-most pixel, also storing triangle ID
Exophase is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 03:15   #556
AlNets
Posts may self-destruct
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a Mirror Darkly
Posts: 15,168
Default

I`ll just... leave this here. *shrug*

Quote:
For instance, HDR is the latest in PC for rendering in the GPU, 16 bit per channel floating point (FP16) is used in a standard 64-bit buffer, 64-bit bus width, this is not suitable SGX543 in practical systems. Therefore, NGP for SGX543MP4 "+" is something which seems to support the buffer 9995 to demonstrate a decent 32-bit high dynamic range. Each 9-bit RGB, RGB each 5 bits are stored on the common exponential term, this format as well as texture, render it available as a.
http://translate.googleusercontent.c...PVJ4--nNwLYw2w

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...1GDQgtfm0QMJig


Nothing new I`m sure... but eh.
__________________
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Never scale-up, never sub-render!
(╯°□°)╯︵ □ Flipquad
AlNets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 03:31   #557
Arun
Unknown.
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 4,914
Default

Yeah, it's NGP is uses the OGL ES-centric SGX543, not the DX9-level SGX544, so that kind of thing suffers. I sure as hell hope they're not suggesting using 9-bit integer channels for HDR though, that's not really an option.

Interestingly they've got programmable blending so NAO32 should work extremely well. But it's not clear how you would handle MSAA resolve there - unlike on an IMR, it would be very expensive (performance *and* memory footprint) to do resolve in a pixel shader so here's hoping you can do better than that...
__________________
Focusing on non-graphics projects in 2013 (but I still love triangles)
"[...]; the kind of variation which ensues depending in most cases in a far higher degree on the nature or constitution of the being, than on the nature of the changed conditions."
Arun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 03:47   #558
AlNets
Posts may self-destruct
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: In a Mirror Darkly
Posts: 15,168
Default

Is there a comparison around of the different 32-bit encoded HDR formats? I recall the Bungie one, but it wasn't really an interesting image or a real-world example (just... "such and such format is sucky at this range").

....though I wonder if it really matters for the portable screen.
__________________
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
Never scale-up, never sub-render!
(╯°□°)╯︵ □ Flipquad
AlNets is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 06:22   #559
jlippo
Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 874
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlStrong View Post
I`ll just... leave this here. *shrug*

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...PVJ4--nNwLYw2w

http://translate.googleusercontent.c...1GDQgtfm0QMJig


Nothing new I`m sure... but eh.
So the order independent transparency is possible with the hardware?
I thought that Powervr dropped the feature from their chips after the Chip in Dreamcast.

I would guess that plenty of developers like the feature.
jlippo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 07:06   #560
Xenus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,316
Default

AlStrong that sounds like it's the writers conjecture but I can't tell do the wonderful quality of the auto translate. Where is our friendly neighborhood console forum translator when we need him? :P
Xenus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 07:45   #561
Simon F
Tea maker
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: In the Island of Sodor, where the steam trains lie
Posts: 4,444
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jlippo View Post
So the order independent transparency is possible with the hardware?
I thought that Powervr dropped the feature from their chips after the Chip in Dreamcast.
Order independent translucency was also in the Neon250 PC chip (i.e. same generation as DC) and in one MBX-based system. It has not, to my knowledge, been incorporated into any recent systems.

Quote:
I would guess that plenty of developers like the feature.
I certainly could have done with it for a couple of technical demo programs I did. I really don't know how real developers cope.
__________________
"Your work is both good and original. Unfortunately the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." -(attributed to) Samuel Johnson

"I invented the term Object-Oriented, and I can tell you I did not have C++ in mind." Alan Kay
Simon F is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 08:17   #562
Arwin
Now Officially a Top 10 Poster
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Maastricht, The Netherlands
Posts: 14,916
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlStrong View Post
Is there a comparison around of the different 32-bit encoded HDR formats? I recall the Bungie one, but it wasn't really an interesting image or a real-world example (just... "such and such format is sucky at this range").

....though I wonder if it really matters for the portable screen.
I'm guessing that AMOLED screen is going to benefit from it more than any other screen I have in my house ... ?
Arwin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 08:59   #563
Shifty Geezer
uber-Troll!
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Under my bridge
Posts: 30,303
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arun View Post
Yeah, it's NGP is uses the OGL ES-centric SGX543, not the DX9-level SGX544, so that kind of thing suffers. I sure as hell hope they're not suggesting using 9-bit integer channels for HDR though, that's not really an option.
I read that dodgy translation as 9 bits mantissa per RGB component, 5 bits exponent for the whole value.
__________________
Shifty Geezer
...
Flashing Samsung mobile firmwares. Know anything about this? Then please advise me at -
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1862910
Shifty Geezer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 10:50   #564
DieH@rd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,983
Default

The first E3 preview of NGP has just broke its NDA, in addition to few new screenshots article mentioned this tidbit about hardware:
The new console uses a quad core ARM Cortex A9 processor, SGX543MP4+ graphic accelerator (200MHz, 4 GPixel/s fill rate). All these specifications are yet preliminary though the company first announced the console early this year the final specs will be announced in a few weeks at E3 conference as well as the sales start date and the price of NGP. Meanwhile let us get to gaming.
http://www.mobile-review.com/article...y-ngp-en.shtml

Are those specs known from before? Anyhow, few screens:











hawt
__________________
“It is Microsoft. And I will kill them.
—Sony Computer Entertainment President and CEO Ken Kutaragi, asked in 1994 who he thought the biggest competition would be for his upcoming PlayStation game console.
DieH@rd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 12:23   #565
GZ007
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 416
Default

The combination of screen size (much higher DPI than TV) and 4xMSAA will probably be close or even match PS3 graphic. And the NGP uncharted is just a launch game. It will probably just get better as they get more familiar with the 3 cpu cores and gpu.
GZ007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-Jun-2011, 12:47   #566
DieH@rd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,983
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GZ007 View Post
The combination of screen size (much higher DPI than TV) and 4xMSAA will probably be close or even match PS3 graphic. And the NGP uncharted is just a launch game. It will probably just get better as they get more familiar with the 3 cpu cores and gpu.
You mean something like this:

__________________
“It is Microsoft. And I will kill them.
—Sony Computer Entertainment President and CEO Ken Kutaragi, asked in 1994 who he thought the biggest competition would be for his upcoming PlayStation game console.
DieH@rd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-Jun-2011, 12:01   #567
DieH@rd
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,983
Default

So, there was zero hardware NGP/PSVita reveals at E3... RAM amount is still mystery.
__________________
“It is Microsoft. And I will kill them.
—Sony Computer Entertainment President and CEO Ken Kutaragi, asked in 1994 who he thought the biggest competition would be for his upcoming PlayStation game console.
DieH@rd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-Jun-2011, 17:08   #568
onQ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DieH@rd View Post
So, there was zero hardware NGP/PSVita reveals at E3... RAM amount is still mystery.
none at all


come on insiders throw a dog a bone
onQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-Jun-2011, 20:14   #569
Aeoniss
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Nebraska
Posts: 557
Default

Yea, that's really what I'm most interested in knowing.. I'm really hoping for that magical 512+128.
Aeoniss is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-Jun-2011, 14:23   #570
Xenus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,316
Default

Well there was they showed off the internal memory cards that go up to 32 gigs. That's about it though.
Xenus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-Jun-2011, 15:10   #571
Xpuntar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aeoniss View Post
Yea, that's really what I'm most interested in knowing.. I'm really hoping for that magical 512+128.
Quite magical as the sum of them is 640.

640!
Xpuntar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-Jun-2011, 16:44   #572
onQ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenus View Post
Well there was they showed off the internal memory cards that go up to 32 gigs. That's about it though.

any links to this info? well I guess being able to add a 32GB card beats adding 8-16GB & selling the console for a higher price
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xpuntar View Post
Quite magical as the sum of them is 640.

640!
do you know something? or are you just playing with our emotions?

& if so is that 640MB of main memory + the 128 making it 768MB of total memory?

Last edited by onQ; 10-Jun-2011 at 16:54.
onQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-Jun-2011, 16:54   #573
Npl
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,898
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by onQ View Post
do you know something? or are you just playing with our emotions?
I think he talks about this (no ones ever gonna need more than 640MB?)
Npl is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-Jun-2011, 23:48   #574
Xenus
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Ohio
Posts: 1,316
Default

No prices reported but this was taken at E3.

Xenus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-Jun-2011, 01:02   #575
onQ
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 1,040
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xenus View Post
No prices reported but this was taken at E3.


thanks
onQ is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply

Tags
543mp4, dreamcast, imgtec, sgx, tbdr, vindicated

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 16:21.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.