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Old 15-Apr-2011, 13:32   #1051
Shifty Geezer
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That'd be amazingly immersive. I'd have thought VR would be making a comeback in arcades, as these sorts of headsets are still too costly for home use.
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Old 15-Apr-2011, 16:58   #1052
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Originally Posted by dragonelite View Post
Wow got my hands on a kinect for this school period project.
You can do a lot of cool things with it.

Tried doing some of the sample stuff in OpenNi and some cool drawing programs where you can change stuff on the fly.
Changed some code in the drawing program you had to draw with your head and to reset your canvas to draw on you had to do a high kick. The faces you could see when people looked at us was just pure gold some students and teachers even ask if they could try. Options are as good as limitless for none gaming stuff if you ask me only downsize is that for Core gamers the input latency is just to high for a Fps or other twitch shooter but for story telling games like Heavy with a this could be really immersive experience. Instead of press X for jason you can just shout jason.

Stupid person in our group doesn't want to make a Air guitar app not fair.
Pretty cool that it's starting to be used in school classes for learning. You'll have to keep us updated on what you guys come up with.

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Old 17-Apr-2011, 02:16   #1053
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If it only takes 5 ms of GPU time, why is there so much lag? Shouldn't there only be 5-10 ms more lag than an equivalent 30 fps title? ie. if the game is just doing 1;1 limb tracking and not gesture recognition.
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Old 17-Apr-2011, 17:20   #1054
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Some games have more lag than others. Part of it could be to do with how lag is represented. With Kinect you can track it through the whole motion, even if it's minimal.
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Old 17-Apr-2011, 20:42   #1055
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If it only takes 5 ms of GPU time, why is there so much lag? Shouldn't there only be 5-10 ms more lag than an equivalent 30 fps title? ie. if the game is just doing 1;1 limb tracking and not gesture recognition.
5ms GPU time for processing the image is not the only area where latency can occur. For example it must take an amount of time for the camera to capture and package the picture and be sent down the wire and stored in RAM etc before the data is even ready to be processed by the GPU. If i remember correctly even the latency of a single button press on DualShock 3 is around 20ms and kinect is doing a whole lot more.
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Old 18-Apr-2011, 05:50   #1056
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If it only takes 5 ms of GPU time, why is there so much lag? Shouldn't there only be 5-10 ms more lag than an equivalent 30 fps title? ie. if the game is just doing 1;1 limb tracking and not gesture recognition.
2ms I believe (according to the docs posted here recently). But that is just classifying the image. From there, you have to match a skeleton to the identified parts, and then, in some games, map an avatar to the skeleton.
Other causes of latency are the buffer transfer, the depth image creation on the camera, and the rendering method you're using.
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Old 18-Apr-2011, 18:46   #1057
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Pretty cool that it's starting to be used in school classes for learning. You'll have to keep us updated on what you guys come up with.

Regards,
SB
As it now stand we are probably gonna make a 3D rubiks cube program which will use head and hand tracking. I actually wanted to make something like Forza 4 showroom but then for a every kind of model something let say a architect could use. Maybe i will make it myself in my spare time working in xna trying to figure out 3D graphics.
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Old 19-Apr-2011, 02:06   #1058
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2ms I believe (according to the docs posted here recently). But that is just classifying the image. From there, you have to match a skeleton to the identified parts, and then, in some games, map an avatar to the skeleton.
Other causes of latency are the buffer transfer, the depth image creation on the camera, and the rendering method you're using.
Oh, so the GPU body part identification time is down to 2 ms now, that's very quick.

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5ms GPU time for processing the image is not the only area where latency can occur. For example it must take an amount of time for the camera to capture and package the picture and be sent down the wire and stored in RAM etc before the data is even ready to be processed by the GPU. If i remember correctly even the latency of a single button press on DualShock 3 is around 20ms and kinect is doing a whole lot more.
Yes, but even with the 20 ms of controller lag the best responding 30fps games have 100 ms of input lag, for Kinect titles the best we've seen is something like 150 ms. That's a huge difference, especially if it only takes 2ms to identify the body parts (which you'd think would be the most difficult task to do).
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Old 19-Apr-2011, 03:54   #1059
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Oh, so the GPU body part identification time is down to 2 ms now, that's very quick.



Yes, but even with the 20 ms of controller lag the best responding 30fps games have 100 ms of input lag, for Kinect titles the best we've seen is something like 150 ms. That's a huge difference, especially if it only takes 2ms to identify the body parts (which you'd think would be the most difficult task to do).
The increased lag are probably because of two things:

- To smooth the animation;
- They need to make sure you actually make the gesture they are looking for... It would be very error prone if they estimate that based on how you are moving at some point . They need to see you moving first to react after, that also induces lag. Some games, even though they use body tracking seems to add extra lag to smooth out the animation data... The measures i tried taking for Kinect Adventures for instance, showed that the delay is longer to your avatar start a movement than it is for it to stop (Let's say, they start moving at 5 frames or so behind, but stop the motion at fewer frames behind.

Also, if you look at the kinect viewer, which shows the raw data from kinect (including the body tracking of course) you'll notice that its very close if not a perfect match to the target 100ms, but games seems to add a few more ms of delay due to some processing that has to be done on top of that data. Some games like dance central and your shape do feel extremely close to the raw output from kinect, thought... So i guess that not having to map an avatar frees up some ms.
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Old 19-Apr-2011, 09:07   #1060
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Originally Posted by (((interference))) View Post
Yes, but even with the 20 ms of controller lag the best responding 30fps games have 100 ms of input lag, for Kinect titles the best we've seen is something like 150 ms. That's a huge difference, especially if it only takes 2ms to identify the body parts (which you'd think would be the most difficult task to do).
Controller lag is typically 4ms (at least that is what it is for the DualShock 3 on PS3, but I reckon the 360 controller will be identical). It is definitely not 20ms, because I remember this from the Move lag discussion, which is typically also 4ms, but with extreme circumstances and tracking 4 Move controllers at once it could go up to 20ms.

One reason for a difference is that afaik the Kinect camera looks at the input data with 30fps, so that is more of a delay right from the start. From there on everything depends on how much the application wants to do and in what way it wants to do it for how much lag there will be. DF did some good testing to show the differences between various games and applications back in the day. There definitely is room for improvement even for the best performing titles, and it will probably be time for Richard to pull out his kit to retest some stuff if we get confirmation of improvements in the drivers.

It definitely speaks to the 360s GPU that it can do this stuff, no question about it - impressive job.
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Old 19-Apr-2011, 17:10   #1061
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First 15 minutes of The Gunstringer for Kinect. It seems a lot of fun and the controls are easy to understand, plus they work well taking into account your character is a marionette. The blend of a videogame and matinee is so appealing to me.



Some parts of the video are hilarious.
That looks like an interesting casual game. I wonder why the devs didn't decide to go cross-platform with this. Maybe it is the same position/situation the devs from Kung Fu Live were in.
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Old 20-Apr-2011, 05:13   #1062
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published by microsoft would be why
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Old 23-May-2011, 20:12   #1063
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They should use this kind of control for a space rts

Use that with this


And im sure people will like it.
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Old 29-May-2011, 11:48   #1064
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haha awesome.
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Old 03-Jun-2011, 18:37   #1065
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microsoft will bring many improvements to kinect?
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/20...-kinect-better
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Old 12-Aug-2011, 09:07   #1066
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So is the depth stream from Kinect to the 360 , 640x480 res after all?
Since it appears they can do finger tracking now.
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Old 14-Aug-2011, 04:36   #1067
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So is the depth stream from Kinect to the 360 , 640x480 res after all?
Since it appears they can do finger tracking now.
The finger tracking they have running in kinect sparkle is to detect hand gestures, not tracking the fingers per se... Theoretically they could use the depth data just to point where the hand is and analyze the gesture through the rgb camera (they kinda do this with the facial tracking) if the depth res by itself is not enough...

Shame Kinect Sparkle is 3 dollars, i would love to try if the finger tracking is reliable enough to be used all the time as a click/touch (in KS you only draw when you do the correct hand gesture, it would be nice something like that in fruit ninja kinect for instance)
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Old 16-Aug-2011, 15:49   #1068
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KinectFusion demo video. Easily the coolest use of the sensor yet IMO.




Quote:
We present KinectFusion, a system that takes live depth data from a moving depth camera and in real-time creates high-quality 3D models. The system allows the user to scan a whole room and its contents within seconds. As the space is explored, new views of the scene and objects are revealed and these are fused into a single 3D model. The system continually tracks the 6DOF pose of the camera and rapidly builds a volumetric representation of arbitrary scenes.






Our technique for tracking is directly suited to the point-based depth data of Kinect, and requires no feature extraction or feature tracking. Once the 3D pose of the camera is known, each depth measurement from the sensor can be integrated into a volumetric representation. We describe the benefits of this representation over mesh-based approaches. In particular, the representation implicitly encodes predictions of the geometry of surfaces within a scene, which can be extracted readily from the volume. As the camera moves through the scene, new depth data can be added or removed from this volumetric representation, continually refining the 3D model acquired. We describe novel GPU-based implementations for both camera tracking and surface reconstruction. These take two well-understood methods from the computer vision and graphics literature as a starting point, defining new instantiations designed specifically for parallelizable GPGPU hardware. This allows for interactive real-time rates that have not previously been demonstrated.

We demonstrate the interactive possibilities enabled when high-quality 3D models can be acquired in real-time, including: extending multi-touch interactions to arbitrary surfaces; advanced features for augmented reality; real-time physics simulations of the dynamic model; novel methods for segmentation and tracking of scanned objects

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Old 16-Aug-2011, 16:23   #1069
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Now that is incredibly awesome, and what I was anticipating from the tech! It's the best possible augmented reality tech, and I'm sure will do wonders for computer vision.
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Old 16-Aug-2011, 17:36   #1070
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Wow, that is indeed incredibly awesome.
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Old 16-Aug-2011, 19:04   #1071
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Kinect voice commands benefiting from Microsoft’s Tellme group and Windows Phone Voice

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Speech technology from Microsoft’s Tellme group is quickly becoming a bigger part of the company’s products, starting with the upcoming revamps of Xbox Live and Windows Phone. Users will have more opportunities to use voice commands to interact with and control the on-screen experience — listening to text messages in Windows Phone, for example, and responding to them by voice.

...
And people should find the voice recognition to be considerably better than in the past, said Ilya Bukshteyn, a Microsoft Tellme senior director, when we met up today on the company’s Redmond campus.
Here’s why: The technology has been improved by the diversity of voice searches coming in through applications such as Bing on mobile phones. In addition, Microsoft is using a unified, cloud-based service across its different voice applications. With a larger collection of data to work from, the unified system can learn more quickly.
“We’ve seen more improvement in the last 18 months to two years than we saw in a decade before that,” Bukshteyn said
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Old 16-Aug-2011, 19:43   #1072
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When does the new dashboard come out?! I've never seen it! The voice integration is very cool.
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Old 16-Aug-2011, 19:55   #1073
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When does the new dashboard come out?! I've never seen it! The voice integration is very cool.
It was sandwiched in the E3 Press Conference (sorry for the quality) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzXmO...eature=related

And the new ESPN update was announced shortly thereafter (also kinect enabled) http://gizmodo.com/5824986/the-new-e...tch-sports-now
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Old 16-Aug-2011, 20:29   #1074
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To my mind this is where MS has a potentially huge advantage with new input devices and similar fringe technologies, they have so much existing research and in some cases production technology they can leverage.
How well they actually do that remains to be seen, but a Sony or a Nintendo is not going to invest as much in say image recognition or voice recognition as MS already did before Kinect was even an idea.
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Old 16-Aug-2011, 22:02   #1075
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To my mind this is where MS has a potentially huge advantage with new input devices and similar fringe technologies, they have so much existing research and in some cases production technology they can leverage.
How well they actually do that remains to be seen, but a Sony or a Nintendo is not going to invest as much in say image recognition or voice recognition as MS already did before Kinect was even an idea.
Surely at least image recognition is a department where Sony is doing a lot already in its camera divisions? My WX10 camera and its companion software (PMB) have a fair bit of image recognition stuff built in.
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