[Gradthrawn]

Originally Posted by I.S.T.

Western? It was developed by From Software!

I thought that was odd to, but I'm guessing he's referring to the play style and not the country of origin.

[Rolf N]

Originally Posted by Gradthrawn

I thought that was odd to, but I'm guessing he's referring to the play style and not the country of origin.

Yes. It's a genre.

[patsu]

I am evaluating my game purchases this fall.

I saw GAF recommending this game to new PS3 owners (It's the first on the list). Since From Software developed "3D Dot Heroes", I wanted to buy their stuff to encourage someone to bring "3D Dot Heroes" to US too.

After checking out reviews like this:
http://www.rpgfan.com/reviews/Demons_Souls/index.html

... What really sets the game apart from most others, however, is its staggering difficulty. Was Persona a bit tricky for you? Did Ninja Gaiden 2 seem cheap and unfair? You ain't seen nothing yet. You could take Metallica, Iron Maiden, and Megadeth, cram them all together in a possessed blender, and the result would not be as brutal as Demon's Souls.

I'll put it simply: You will die. A lot. Then, you will die some more. Every time you die, all of the souls you gathered will be lost in a bloodstain at the point of your death. If you die again before you make it back to that point, they are lost forever. Enemies can kill you in just a few hits, and they will often gang up on you, sneak up and jump you from behind, or snipe you with arrows and firebombs. Your character is not exactly Ryu Hayabusa either. If you take a typical hack-and-slash approach to combat, you will die hilariously fast. Every dash, every evasive move, every swing of your sword takes stamina, which needs time to recover. Block for too long and your guard will be shattered, at which point you will likely get impaled and killed. When you die in human form, you come back as a spirit with only half of your max HP. Dying in a game normally evidences that something was too difficult for you, and this game responds by making things MORE difficult. All saving is done automatically by the game, and portals back to the nexus world (the game's safe zone and hub for stat boosting and shopping) are few and far between. The game auto saves when you die, and it does it fast too. I tried pulling the plug on my PS3 right after getting shanked by a zombie, and it STILL saved. Oh, and every time you die, all the enemies respawn.

It REALLY sounds like I should call the police for back up when I play this game.

Have the people who posted above finished the game ?

Is the game save shareable > ?

[Rolf N]

The game save can't be copied, it's one of a handful I've lost in my fat=>slim exchange.

It's true that the game is challenging, but the death mechanic in the game makes "dying over and over" not as bad as it sounds. When you die, you restart at the entrance to the current section with your equipment and stats, save for spare experience*, and you can recover that by clicking your bloodstain, which is left at the place of your death. If you do that, you've lost nothing. You probably gained something actually, because you've killed stuff on the way twice now.

Every character can learn and be everything eventually, but starting difficulty depends greatly on the class you pick. As I've had to restart since getting the slim, I took the popular advice and picked the "royal" class. It's easy! You start with a powerful ranged attack spell and a ring that gradually recharges mana. You can avoid most melee combat that way, and live a long, prosperous life

*"souls" gained by killing enemies are used both as a currency and as points to invest in level-ups; you can only level up while you're in the Nexus (sort of your home base). Spare experience is your wallet, anything you haven't already spent.

[szymku]

Some of the experience you are gathering is in "solid" form (soul stones items) so you are keeping them even when you die...
About the difficulty - the game is difficult in a way first computer RPG's were... In some way it remind me of playing Dungeon Master or Eye of the beholder, where in the beginning difficulty level was simply awful, but after gaining some experience, collecting better weapons and armours everything went back to normal

Overall the game is really good. Good graphics, great gameplay and unique atmosphere...

I would rate it 9 out of 10

[patsu]

Originally Posted by szymku

where in the beginning difficulty level was simply awful, but after gaining some experience, collecting better weapons and armours everything went back to normal

Dang, that's why I want to use existing game saves to help. Thanks Rolf for responding. What exactly does Royal class do ?

I like the part where people say you'll die repeatedly but the enemies are not "cheap". Also like the co-op idea very much.

Particularly the online co-op is executed in an original if flawed way. Interaction with other players is usually passive. You will see ghost-like shadows of other players who are in your current stage. You can also read and leave messages on the ground. Sometimes these are very helpful, like "watch out on your left!" If someone gives a thumbs-up to your message, you get your health back, so be generous and praise others regularly. You will also see bloodstains, which show where other players have died. Touch the stain and a silhouette will actually show that player's death. This may not be a good way to inspire confidence though; many times the silhouette mime shows the player walk into the next room and just fall over dead. "Hmm, maybe I shouldn't go that way..." I would think to myself.

You can summon other players into your game to help clear stages and bosses if you have a physical body. If you are in soul form, you can be summoned into other games, and if you manage to help someone defeat a boss, you get your body back. There is also a fantastic PvP system where you can invade other worlds, stalk another player as a black phantom, and then murder them to take their body and get your own physical form back. Let me tell you, it is nerve-racking when someone invades your game because if they are any good, they'll come after you when you least expect it. If it freaks you out too much, the game is playable offline, though without other players' messages, bloodstains, and co-op for bosses, the difficulty only goes up.

I have been shying away from horror games because I don't like limited movements and control schemes. Do you have any more advices for me. I can get good at a game if I invest the time, but most of the time I just take the easy way out when gaming.

I usually don't read reviews but this one managed to pull me in. Pretty good writing... whoever he is. ^_^

[DrJay24]

I really want to try this game, but I don't want to throw my controller and give up. I have to summon the courage!

[patsu]

I'm cooking up a pot of extra strength courage with Mandrake Roots and a stick of sh*t now. Will let you know if it works.

[Yemeth]

Originally Posted by patsu

What exactly does Royal class do ?

http://demonssouls.wikidot.com/royal

http://demonssouls.wikidot.com/

Can't wait that my preorder (deluxe version) arrives...

[Rolf N]

Starting as the "royal" class gives you the fragrant ring as starting equipment so you can regenerate mana. It also gives you passable spell-casting stats and the soul arrow spell, which is a ranged attack that can one-shot most enemies in the early stages of the game.

Every class can earn the spell. Every class can find (or buy) a fragrant ring eventually and achieve (and surpass) the royal's stats. Classes in Demon's Souls are just labels for starting setups. Every character can equip everything and can cast every spell. You just have to spend the points to get there.

[patsu]

I watched quite a few Demon's Soul boss fights on Youtube. There are issues here and there (like path finding), but I can see why it's heart pounding. I am attracted to the fighting style (compared to say... Devil May Cry type of fast-paced action). I can see the player retreating and pacing the battle deliberately (Got to keep your cool !).

I'll probably spend hours if not days trying not to make/repeat any mistake.

Between Ninja Gaiden Sigma 2 and this, I prefer the more serious/sober treatment here.

May be a solution for me is to seek help from the bachelor gamers around here. They can play the extra difficult parts for me while I watch

EDIT:
I re-read the entire thread and found this comment:

Originally Posted by Sigfried1977

Yesterday I got summoned by the game to be the level 3 boss. That's just an insanely cool idea if you ask me. I didn't even got to fight the player, though. I guess the Mindflayer before the boss room took care of him instead.

When you play in online mode, the boss can be one of the players ? (What the... did I understand Sigfried1977 correctly ?)

[Rolf N]

Originally Posted by patsu

I can see the player retreating and pacing the battle deliberately (Got to keep your cool !).

It's not all stylistic choice. The game enforces that behaviour with its stamina mechanic. Attacking or rolling takes a chunk of stamina each time. Blocking (nearly) halts your stamina recharge. Running out of stamina makes you vulnerable, you take damage even if you block and you stagger.

You have to pace your attacks. Two or three hits is probably all you can do before you have to get out of range again to recharge stamina. But if you know when to drop your block, you get your stamina back faster and may be able to squeeze in a fourth strike.

Then there's a counter mechanic where you can deflect an attack with a well-timed shield swipe and set yourself up for a powerful retaliation ("riposte").

Or you can do heavy strikes, which cosume a little more stamina but do proportionally more damage (and quicker) than normal strikes.

If you're very sure your enemy won't land a hit, you can toggle two-handed mode for any weapon on the fly, forfeit your ability to block properly, but do more damage with each swing.

The combat system is more of a rhythm/pattern recognition thing and generally rewards taking risks at the right time. It's not about learning combo #49 which has just the right range for enemy #92.

I still like it.

[patsu]

The reviews and fans said the game balances the combat mechanics really well (convincing and skill-based).

I am thinking the new controller may make this game more accessible and yet retain its flavor. The archery demo seems to fit the combat really well. The dev will need to test it out though.

EDIT:
The more I think about it, the more I think Sony should get From Software to tailor this game for the new controller. It'd be a great showcase together with the existing co-op mechanism.

[patsu]

Demon's Souls dev interview:
http://www.siliconera.com/2009/07/10...was-that-hard/

How come you decided to have these Twitter and paste style messages? Why didn’t you let people freely write messages?

First, it was easier to implement since we didn’t need to implement a profanity filter. If we made a freeform messaging system it would turn it into a large chat, which detracts from the feel of the world.

About PvP...

What do you think about the helpful Black Phantoms that altruistically help other players?

System-wise we know you can do it. You can invade other people’s worlds as a black phantom and help them out. We left that in the hands of the players to decide their own path. Overall, it worked out in the game’s benefit.

But, there are sneaky players that come in as Black Phantoms. At first, they seem like they’re helping out, but later they may backstab you.

Something a little spoilerific:

This looks like a mini-boss fight with "Black Phantom Satsuki". I found this video after wading through many. In this case, the black phantom seems to be an NPC. The player switches weapon mid-way. I thought this video is a good example to show how the new controller can be used in Demons' Souls. It's rather similar to the tech demo.

[Rolf N]

It's an NPC black phantom that spawns as part of a world-tendency event.

Btw if you look top left, the green bar is stamina. You can see how the player carefully manages it until near the very end of the fight where he/she goes full risk and depletes it with the final blow.

[Sigfried1977]

Originally Posted by patsu

When you play in online mode, the boss can be one of the players ? (What the... did I understand Sigfried1977 correctly ?)

You did. It's only the final boss of the third stage, though. He summons other players to fight against you. If you are plaing offline an A.I. will do the job.

If you are summoned as that particular boss and defeat the player you can earn a pretty good (and rather ridiculous looking) piece of head gear.


By the way, I though the fight against BP Satsuki was really, really tough.

[patsu]

I pre-ordered the deluxe edition. Will post impressions once the people here give it a try.

We are afraid of the game but decided to order anyway:


(9 minute boring player stalking followed by less than 1 minute of tragic PvP. Skip to 9:00 if you only want to see the actual assassination).


(You're supposed to rush the spawn point when a Black Phantom invades your world. Here's another type of PvP encounter )

EDIT: Actually, the second encounter could be a Black Phantom NPC.

[Sigfried1977]

Second video is not PvP. It's just a player (in soul form - there's no PvP in soul form thank god) being attacked by black phantom version (those appear when the world hits black tendency) of a regular enemy in World 3-2.

Also don't worry too much: once you get past the excruciating first couple of hours the game becomes much more managable. Just don't be reckless, even if you know what you are doing.

[patsu]

Yeah, I am not familiar with the game set up yet.

Am rather happy to find the official blog from GAF. The most recent one (#5) talks about its difficulty: http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4265

The older ones are:
#1 Introduction: http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3795
#2 Basics: http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3966
#3 Online Play: http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4021
#4 World Tendency: http://www.atlus.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4118

I ordered the deluxe edition because of the strategy guide. I figured I'd need it for this game.

Btw, Yemeth and I agreed to back each other up when the game is released. My gut feel is our timezone difference would probably prevent us from gaming for a long time. We'll see. I'll definitely summon Blue Phantoms to help me tackle pesky Black Phantoms.

[K.I.L.E.R]

The game is only difficult for the first 5-10 hours of play, regardless of how far you are in the game. You get used to it all. I installed a new HDD in my PS3, lost my character of 40 hours and had to start again, instead of a female Barbarian, I have picked a female Royal and the game is as easy as pie, despite being used to using humongous swords. Haven't died once in my new game.

[Yemeth]

patsu, looking forward to play with you, we'll see about the timezone difference...

BTW, currently I have to fight much not to look at youtube videos, guides etc., so that I have some surprises left (altough I have boomarked one, if it gets too frustrating at the beginning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qG018Yg4kOM ).

Cheers...

[patsu]

Heh, I am watching lot's of Demon's Souls youtube videos too.

Thanks for posting that beginner's guide. It's probably a life saver.
[rush off to research Cling Ring]

I'm actually more excited by this purchase than the other games.

[Rolf N]

The cling ring is overrated. True heroes can be effective at straight halved HP

My new char is back up to level 40ish now. I'd say I'm about as far as I was before I lost my save, +- a few minor events. I'm relying a lot on offensive spells now, where in my previous game I'd only use the bow at range. The thing is, some enemies are quite susceptible to magic damage. There are certain enemies that still take 25+ arrows, even with my decently upgraded bow, but can be offed with three hits of a cheap fire spell. Knowing that, and being able to exploit it anytime, thanks to the fragrant ring, takes some of the cold fear out of the game

When I think about how many times I died before, trying to melee my way through the tower of Latria ... sheesh!

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Rolf N

The cling ring is overrated. True heroes can be effective at straight halved HP

Whelp, I am not a hero. I need everything I can get to stay alive.

My new char is back up to level 40ish now. I'd say I'm about as far as I was before I lost my save, +- a few minor events. I'm relying a lot on offensive spells now, where in my previous game I'd only use the bow at range. The thing is, some enemies are quite susceptible to magic damage. There are certain enemies that still take 25+ arrows, even with my decently upgraded bow, but can be offed with three hits of a cheap fire spell. Knowing that, and being able to exploit it anytime, thanks to the fragrant ring, takes some of the cold fear out of the game

When I think about how many times I died before, trying to melee my way through the tower of Latria ... sheesh!

Someday I'll be as strong as you, but for now... I'll beg. Can you give items to another player ?

Gamasutra has a new article on Demon's Souls:
http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/new...hp?story=25238

I haven't read it yet. Saving it for end of day.

EDIT: Finished reading the article last night, it's another positive review in defense of the difficulty. I think I should be alright.

[Sigfried1977]

Nice article, but the guy who posted his criticisms in the comments is spot-on as well. There are some weird design choices to be found in the game like the shifting world tendency and the NPC who slays other NPCs once you rescue him. That guy will even kill the dude who stores your loot for you, and if that happens countless hours of grinding will have been for naught.