[Farid]

While closing the PSP2 speculation thread and redirecting the talk to the new tech-talk thread, I forgot that there's no business dedicated thread on the Console Forum to that new handheld. So let me correct that mistake.

Here are some links to the current and old threads on the topic:

Apparantly the PSP2 exists. - General Talk
PSP2 features - the handheld version *renamed - Tech Talk
Sony's Next Generation Portable unveiling - PSP2 in disguise - Current Tech Talk

The topic for this thread is simple, anything NGP/PSP2 that isn't technological or game specific (the latter need their own threads in the Console Games forum) should go in this thread. Business speculation, pricing issues and wild claims about relativity of success are welcome here. Same goes with battery life concerns and others use issues.

[Rurouni]

first thing first...
NGP stands for Next Generation Portable. Not to be confused with the old Neo Geo console (or in this case Neo Geo Pocket).

[Shifty Geezer]

Is there really a market for this thing with all the competition?

[patsu]

Asked in the Handheld tech thread, but I'll ask here also. What's the spec for the proprietary docking port on PSP2 ?

[Squilliam]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Is there really a market for this thing with all the competition?

You're just pissed that they confirmed theres no TV output!

OT: The software / game suite does look good. To be honest I am more bullish now than I was before. The software looks considerably better than what Nintendo gives you and it seems that it may represent a tangible advantage for the NGP.

[Shifty Geezer]

Originally Posted by Squilliam

You're just pissed that they confirmed theres no TV output!

I didn't see that. that ruins much of the potential value as a unique portable media player. The software business is great, but that has it's own thread and NGP is just a device for that; it doesn't define NGP. NGP itself isn't particularly exciting for me. It's just a fancy handheld that doesn't do anything different, maybe just of a better quality, which means in this day and age it'll likely age fast.

[Rangers]

I have a hodgepodge of thoughts and no clear idea...hmmm...

Pros, things I like, possible big strategic winners:

-5" screen. The smartphone race has become all about screen size (seems the bigger the screen the more popular the phone aka the HTC Evo, of course this cant continue forever). And this goes all out on the screen, the current biggest smartphones are 4.3". Part of me thinks the world is moving to portable, and this will give a near home experience with such a large screen while still being portable, best of both worlds. Could be a stroke of genius, could be a fail for not being portable enough. I dont know.

-Touchscreen. This will allow it to port iPhone games, and also allow it to do tablet duty with that big screen. That is if Sony can get a decent browser (just buy one from Opera/Firefox somebody Sony!)

-Twin sticks. Interesting tweet from Ken Levine:

PSP2, do want. Don't get the hate. Two analog sticks = shooters on a handheld for the first time. Potential, let's hope for follow thru.

. He's right about shooters. Todays hardcore gaming world is basically dominated by COD. If they can catch any of that fire on PSP2, it could be huge.

-Hardware CPU/GPU specs. Truly top of the line. Really over top of the line, wont be topped for some time. Moreso when you consider this:

ID_AA_Carmack John Carmack
Low level APIs will allow the Sony NGP to perform about a generation beyond smart phones with comparable specs.

Possible negs:

-Basically the same strategy as PSP which failed next to DS.

- PSP's best market is Japan, where they love small things. Will they recoil at the size of this thing? Will be disastrous for Sony if so.

-Release date, possibly 2012 for USA/Europe?

-Graphics: So far what I've seen looks a solid notch below PS360 despite claims, which is a major drag imo. If you're going to get second class graphics anyway, then imo the 3DS becomes a lot more attractive. Hell, is their really that much difference between RE: Mercenaries and what Sony has shown on PSP2 so far? I'd wager squint a little and pretend you're joe six pack and there may not be. The 400X240 3DS res of course is helping its lowly hardware there.


I also find it interesting the CPU/GPU hardware is all third party. So more and more Sony seem to be moving away from hardware design and giving it up out of necessity to western IP. With Ps3 they stuck their fingers in Cell design at least, while most of the system was IBM/Nvidia. Here, nothing. The down side of this is with commoditized hardware, everybody else will have access to the same hardware eventually (hence all the posts anticipating when quad core A9 will inevitably hit smartphones). However it's really no downside as there's nothing Sony could have done custom that ARM cant blow out of the water, the same as Sony can no longer design a GPU that Nvidia and ATI cant blow up with ease.

I also think the whole idea of a portable that you can then play on your TV via some kind of TV out, preferably a wireless one, could be another hugely disruptive idea. One that apparently, PSP2 doesnt explore for fear of cannibalizing PS3.

So all in all, a big bag of potential, but not a home run, so far.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Rangers

I also find it interesting the CPU/GPU hardware is all third party. So more and more Sony seem to be moving away from hardware design and giving it up out of necessity to american IP. With Ps3 they stuck their fingers in Cell design at least, while most of the system was IBM/Nvidia. Here, nothing. The down side of this is with commoditized hardware, everybody else will have access to the same hardware eventually (hence all the posts anticipating when quad core A9 will inevitably hit smartphones). However it's really no downside as there's nothing Sony could have done custom that ARM cant blow out of the water, the same as Sony can no longer design a GPU that Nvidia and ATI cant blow up with ease.

Hardware design is not just CPU and GPU. ^_^
The (total) system design is important too. On top of that, software determines the user experiences.

About several months or a year ago, IBM was called back to do some work with Sony. May be it's a security job, may be not. It's hard to tell with Sony sometimes.

[NathansFortune]

Originally Posted by Rangers

I also find it interesting the CPU/GPU hardware is all third party. So more and more Sony seem to be moving away from hardware design and giving it up out of necessity to american IP. With Ps3 they stuck their fingers in Cell design at least, while most of the system was IBM/Nvidia. Here, nothing. The down side of this is with commoditized hardware, everybody else will have access to the same hardware eventually (hence all the posts anticipating when quad core A9 will inevitably hit smartphones). However it's really no downside as there's nothing Sony could have done custom that ARM cant blow out of the water, the same as Sony can no longer design a GPU that Nvidia and ATI cant blow up with ease.

British IP! ARM and ImgTec are UK companies! ARM are in Cambridge and Imagination Technologies are from Hertfordshire.

[SedentaryJourney]

Originally Posted by Rangers

-Graphics: So far what I've seen looks a solid notch below PS360 despite claims, which is a major drag imo. If you're going to get second class graphics anyway, then imo the 3DS becomes a lot more attractive. Hell, is their really that much difference between RE: Mercenaries and what Sony has shown on PSP2 so far? I'd wager squint a little and pretend you're joe six pack and there may not be. The 400X240 3DS res of course is helping its lowly hardware there.


I also find it interesting the CPU/GPU hardware is all third party. So more and more Sony seem to be moving away from hardware design and giving it up out of necessity to western IP. With Ps3 they stuck their fingers in Cell design at least, while most of the system was IBM/Nvidia. Here, nothing. The down side of this is with commoditized hardware, everybody else will have access to the same hardware eventually (hence all the posts anticipating when quad core A9 will inevitably hit smartphones). However it's really no downside as there's nothing Sony could have done custom that ARM cant blow out of the water, the same as Sony can no longer design a GPU that Nvidia and ATI cant blow up with ease.

I wouldn't characterize this as "second class graphics" since it doesn't compete with consoles anyway. No one is expecting NGP to be a competitor to the Xbox 360 or Sony's own PS3. In the portable space this is first class, and close enough to the home console segment to extend properties from that space into the portable category.

It's also obvious that Sony went with the hardware that makes sense for the portable market. I don't think anyone is competitive with a quad core A9 or SGX at this point, not even intel and nvidia. Cell can't compete on wattage either. To be honest, I hope Sony continues to look into developing unique hardware but I don't expect them not to use the best possible solution. Maybe in the future we'll see something like an update to Cell and an in house GPU; IMG proved you don't have to be huge to compete in the GPU space. Also rendering will probably be a lot more programmable in the future.

[Squilliam]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

I didn't see that. that ruins much of the potential value as a unique portable media player. The software business is great, but that has it's own thread and NGP is just a device for that; it doesn't define NGP. NGP itself isn't particularly exciting for me. It's just a fancy handheld that doesn't do anything different, maybe just of a better quality, which means in this day and age it'll likely age fast.

Couldn't it output video to a TV through wireless? If it supports wireless N even in the worser case scenarios it hardly has to transmit anything more than 720P @ 30FPS and in the better cases it has to deal with less than half of that. Even with poor reception that ought to be doable although the issue is the lack of present support for a feature like that.

I guess overall you could call it almost a tablet / media / game device given the large emphasis on non game features like GPS, 3G and camera. I suspect that if they wanted to given the size of the device they could even diverge the feature set even further into different model ranges if they find theres a segment which demands a great camera/gps/internet experience whilst not being so fond of the games.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Squilliam

Couldn't it output video to a TV through wireless? If it supports wireless N even in the worser case scenarios it hardly has to transmit anything more than 720P @ 30FPS and in the better cases it has to deal with less than half of that. Even with poor reception that ought to be doable although the issue is the lack of present support for a feature like that.

I guess overall you could call it almost a tablet / media / game device given the large emphasis on non game features like GPS, 3G and camera. I suspect that if they wanted to given the size of the device they could even diverge the feature set even further into different model ranges if they find theres a segment which demands a great camera/gps/internet experience whilst not being so fond of the games.

According to folks on the net, there is a proprietary dock on NGP. iOS devices use their dock connector to connect with projectors and TVs.

Wireless TV out should be possible too.

In fact, on the music front, wireless MIDI is doable.

[Arwin]

Originally Posted by Shifty Geezer

Is there really a market for this thing with all the competition?

For one my dreams of a portable LBP that is not nearly as paired down as the PSP had to be (which was still surprisingly good mind, including the editor, the downloadable levels etc!), having the full LBP experience on the 3G SKU is worth more to me than all of iOS's games combined. Add to that the analog sticks, 5" OLED screen, two touch screens, two cameras, Move quality tilt sensors, and the 'certain other titles' that I am interested in, and I for one am very excited. Playstation Suite approach is a good idea too - make this NGP also capable of playing all Android Apps (which is clearly the point of the hardware it has chosen, and it has both GPS and touch, so I could see this being a pretty awesome nav also), and things are looking very good. I think they've positioned themselves comfortably in a void left by Ninendo on one side and iOS on another, with enough overlap to fight a good fight on territory, and with the momentum of Android behind them.

[tuna]

I am a bit dissapointed that it will not play PS2 classics downloaded from the PSStore. Otherwise everything seems cool.

[Npl]

Originally Posted by tuna

I am a bit dissapointed that it will not play PS2 classics downloaded from the PSStore. Otherwise everything seems cool.

Not to surpring since those PS2 Classics are more like true PS3 games.
But you raise a good point, hopefully future Classics are brought to PSP2 aswell.
SOTC on the go? sign me in!

[RobertR1]

I mentioned a while back that I hope Sony get a clue with the PSP2 and doesn't go for a technical accomplishment. Sure enough, they did just that.

Nintendo is safe in the sense that the PSP, once again, isn't going after that market.

Sony's audience is again the tech oriented hardcore crowd. However, one big challenge the PSP2 faces for consumer dollars is the upcoming onslaught by Tablets. The ipad2 will be out along with a host of tablets. They will multi purpose and powerful also. The PSP2 will have to compete on pricing.

We can argue all day but tablets won't have buttons, as powerful games, etc! but at the end of the day, the mass consumer will be decide if the gaming prowess of the PSP2 is enough for them to buy one instead of or in addition to a tablet.

I have not been interested in handhelds since the Gameboy so neither one appeals to me but from a business perspective, Nintendo seems to have done a better job of catering to a demographic they were well familiar with. Sony seems to be taking on another foe on top Nintendo. It'll be interesting to see where it ends up.

[Rangers]

Originally Posted by RobertR1

I mentioned a while back that I hope Sony get a clue with the PSP2 and doesn't go for a technical accomplishment.

Ehh, why not, what else are they gonna do? MS and Sony cant compete on Nintendos turf and theyre smart enough to know that. I've mentioned it a million times but, once in a interview MS mentioned they dont have the IP to compete with what Nintendo does in regards to families (which I guess has changed a bit now Kinect ). Sony has Uncharted, Killzone, that's what they do. It's also the more interesting avenue to me personally, just as the PS360 will always interest me a lot more than the Wii.

The question to me is more, is the entire handheld market by nature Nintendo's turf?

But the PSP while it wasn't a smash apparently did well enough.

[patsu]

It's likely for people who live by dual sticks, or love PSP (Japan and then some in other regions). Based on their latest moves, it seems that Sony is no longer dependent on individual hardware SKU.

Howard Stringer touted combined footprint based on TV, Blu-ray player, PS3, and cellphones.

Kaz Hirai focuses more and more on software and network services to reinforce that claim.

We will definitely see the rest of their PSP2 offerings later this year (PSN, Qriocity, and PS3 integration).

I'm curious what John Carmack can do with that so-called generation leap in performance because of raw hardware access.

Btw, I'd love it if PSP2 (or their next pad or PS3 itself or a PC) can generate a Google map sector into a VR-room type GT5 track to play on the PS3.

[Arwin]

Originally Posted by RobertR1

I mentioned a while back that I hope Sony get a clue with the PSP2 and doesn't go for a technical accomplishment. Sure enough, they did just that.

Technical accomplishment? They basically took off-the-shelf hardware, even if it currently represents top of the line. And rather than focussing on getting a 3D screen, they just got a pretty much current screen instead (though large, but you don't have to use the thing as a phone).

Nintendo is safe in the sense that the PSP, once again, isn't going after that market.

Everything and nothing is going after that market. They still share more than they don't. I bet the non-3G version of the PSP will be within 50 euros of the 3DS max. The 3D screen isn't free, and the 3DS hardware has to drive 800x240 for the main screen, plus the touch screen.

Sony's audience is again the tech oriented hardcore crowd.

Hardcore, maybe, but just supporting analog sticks alone covered that. The cameras, motion controls and double sided touch screen suggest that rather than going for the tech hardcore crowd, they went all out in providing something for good gameplay.

The question is how far they can take the Playstation Suite thing, with all its associated network services. That has the potential to properly cover the casual crowd much more than the 3DS per se, by virtue of being able to become the default platform for Android Phone gaming. And if they do it well, they're in a great position for the PS4 as well.

However, one big challenge the PSP2 faces for consumer dollars is the upcoming onslaught by Tablets. The ipad2 will be out along with a host of tablets. They will multi purpose and powerful also. The PSP2 will have to compete on pricing.

But as said, they won't be able to take full advantage of the hardware. And if Sony plays their cards right, they will also be able to cover future Android tablets with Playstation Suite, including their own.

We can argue all day but tablets won't have buttons, as powerful games, etc! but at the end of the day, the mass consumer will be decide if the gaming prowess of the PSP2 is enough for them to buy one instead of or in addition to a tablet.

So the real question is what really matters here, is whether Sony can create a position where they win either way, as long as the Tablet is an Android tablet that meets the Playstation Suite specs. Keeping also in mind that the PSP2 in the meantime can draw money from the bigger spenders. 1 person spending $15 needs 15 spending $2 to cover the same budget, and large studios can still take big advantage of their position by leveraging their resources to create that $15 more easily and with less competition from small startups than in that $2 segment.

Nintendo seems to have done a better job of catering to a demographic they were well familiar with. Sony seems to be taking on another foe on top Nintendo. It'll be interesting to see where it ends up.

Nintendo stays Nintendo. They chose one new differentiation factor, and decided it would be 3D. If the 3D doesn't work out, then it's just a slightly better DSi with a single analog stick added. It's a gamble, but definitely a worthwhile one. I'm very intrigued, even by the theoretical possibility that I'd get the 3DS to play movies on rather than games and the PSP for the other way around, if at least Nintendo does more than just get movie trailers on the thing.

[V3]

Sony should watch the success of 3DS when it launched, if that thing takes off, they better add 3D to NGP before it launched or at least add one 3D enabled SKU.

BTW did they talked about internal storage or memory stick slot ? What's the cart capacity ?

The device is pretty awsome so far, but as far as games concerned 3DS seems to have it beat. They need more exclusives. In Japan they better get Monster Hunter Portable exlusive.

I wonder if it can do remote play in reverse with PS3 and output the game on your TV instead.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by RobertR1

We can argue all day but tablets won't have buttons, as powerful games, etc! but at the end of the day, the mass consumer will be decide if the gaming prowess of the PSP2 is enough for them to buy one instead of or in addition to a tablet.

Originally Posted by Arwin

So the real question is what really matters here, is whether Sony can create a position where they win either way, as long as the Tablet is an Android tablet that meets the Playstation Suite specs. Keeping also in mind that the PSP2 in the meantime can draw money from the bigger spenders.

Yeah, the Playstation brand is going multi-platform. There is nothing to argue about. If you want buttons, you get it. If you don't want buttons, you can also get it.

If they can deliver a Sony Online Service that manage the relationships with all their customers, they should be able to capitalize on the base better. The next important elements will be the PSN services, the playstation.com website, and their partners in crime (e.g., How fast and far can Valve run given an "open" runway -- instead of feeding them exclusive $$$ ?).

Originally Posted by V3

Sony should watch the success of 3DS when it launched, if that thing takes off, they better add 3D to NGP before it launched or at least add one 3D enabled SKU.

BTW did they talked about internal storage or memory stick slot ? What's the cart capacity ?

Nope.

The device is pretty awsome so far, but as far as games concerned 3DS seems to have it beat. They need more exclusives. In Japan they better get Monster Hunter Portable exclusive.

I agree ! Or do marketing deals… like if you buy a copy of PSP2 software, you also can play the same thing on Android, PS3, etc.

I wonder if it can do remote play in reverse with PS3 and output the game on your TV instead.

Would be good but won't be game changer. If they want to mobilize their PS3 base, they need to offer more benefits to us via PSP2 -- even if we don't go outside much.

EDIT: Hey Sony, I still hope you can turn the home theater world upside down by making cheap, generic Cell distributed systems that can run SACD, 3D Blu-ray, mkv, games, web browser, whatever. ^_^

[Teasy]

Originally Posted by Arwin

Nintendo stays Nintendo. They chose one new differentiation factor, and decided it would be 3D. If the 3D doesn't work out, then it's just a slightly better DSi with a single analog stick added

IF the 3D didn't work out it would still be a massive improvement over DSi.

[draconian]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/3...aming_Apps.php

It appears non-gaming apps are coming to the psp2. I hope they let end users put stuff on it like apple's app store. If they have this, and if it has a webkit based browser and a great ebook reader app, I will buy a psp2. But til then, I'll stick with iOS.

[jeff_rigby]

Originally Posted by draconian

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/3...aming_Apps.php

It appears non-gaming apps are coming to the psp2. I hope they let end users put stuff on it like apple's app store. If they have this, and if it has a webkit based browser and a great ebook reader app, I will buy a psp2. But til then, I'll stick with iOS.

Sony added that "newly-developed content" for PS Suite will also be playable on the company's upcoming Next Generation Portable dedicated gaming hardware, which sports two analog sticks, a touch screen and a touch pad on the back.

If it's only "Newly developed content" that will be available. That limitation could require that the NEW application or game is written on a NEW IDE developed by Sony in a hardware neutral format and would be compiled differently for different platforms. So compiled to Android for Android platforms, PSP2 OS for the PSP2 and possibly iOS for that platform.

The following picture shows how a written for PSP2 could work on an Android 2.3 tablet and possibly Apple tablet, an overlay of PSP2 game controls on the touch sensitive screen.:

But Tretton did confirm that Sony's PlayStation Suite of downloadable Android- and NGP-compatible games will also include non-gaming apps. Tretton initially told Engadget that these apps would be available on the PS3 as well, but quickly backtracked, saying he had misspoken.

Nothing for the PS3. I think this confirms the guess above. Sony will apparently have their cake and eat it too. Every application written for the PSP2 will have to go through Sony. No Android applications will run on the PSP2 but Applications written for the PSP2 will also be ported to the Android platform and possibly iOS.

The SNAP developer program that was put on hold November 27, 2010 used many of the Open source libraries and the objective "C" language used by iOS products. The first additions by Sony to that library were for touch screen platforms. I would guess that iOS was the target at that point with a similar to the current PSP2 to Android plan. The hardware choice for the PSP2 certainly would support that speculation as both the GPU and CPU family used is the same for iOS products. EDIT: And also will be used in high end Android tablets. November is also when a rumor surfaced that a "Major platform developer" signed contracts for the PowerVR SGX543 and it was speculated to be Sony for the PSP2. But in the link below Apple has plans to also use the same chip.

http://modmyi.com/forums/iphone-news...aster-gpu.html

The discovery of a new driver bundle inside the iOS 4.3 beta is suggesting a potentially radical leap in performance for iDevices. The PowerVR SGX543, the smallest OpenCL-capable graphics core, isn't used in any current iOS device, but its inclusion in the beta suggests one or more future device will incorporate it. The power of this co-processor could lead to iPads and iPhones that have comparable performance to notebook computers.

Apple currently uses Imagination Technology's PowerVR SGX535 as the graphics coprocessor in the A4 chip. This is the same GPU used in the iPhone 3GS, as well as the Motorola Droid and the Samsung Galaxy S and Galaxy Tab. It supports OpenGL 2.0 and can render up to 28 million polygons per second with a fillrate of 500 million pixels per second. The next-generation SGX543, by comparison, can render 35 million polygons per second with a fillrate of 1 billion pixels per second. Additionally, the SGX543 supports OpenCL, which means that programs will be able to access the GPU for non-graphical processing, drastically boosting power. It can be stacked it a multi-core configuration, though there might not be space inside the successor to the A4 system-on-a-chip for more than a single graphics core.

Up to the current generation, iOS devices have been perhaps better known for the quality of its software than the speed of its hardware. In 2011, if this chip comes to the platform and growing rumors about a multicore processor are to be believed, that could all be set to change.

Is PSP2 to iOS still planned or did Apple put up some roadblock.

What about the PS3? Can they use the same model to Windows?

Another question, can OpenCL be used for encryption/decryption to allow DRM in WiFI streams, something that the Cell would be used for in the PS3. Is this the reason for choosing a chip that won't be available till the end of 2011 for the PSP2, it will be all Wifi instead of HDMI with HDCP done on the fly by the GPU in the PSP2 using OpenCL.? IF so then this explains ?no video out in the PSP2?

Signing up multiple older Game titles that could run on an Android 2.3 platform might have been started a year ago and Sony was waiting for Android 2.3 to be released. This could also explain Sony management stating that they would have a MASSIVE increase in PSN revenue in 2011-2112

[Gitaroo]

I think if 2-3 years later when 3D screen gets cheap enough and component cost is low, Sony can release a new model in with 3D screen built in and more powerful revision of the same hardware for new 3D games (also fully compatible with original model in 2D) to keep the crowd excited for another 2 year; it also pretty much take away the main selling feature of 3DS and having a much superior hardware capability. I think this would be a pretty decent route or road map for their hardware revision.