[patsu]

Originally Posted by Rangers

Sony stressed the sorcery demo as "the advantage of buttons" type of thing, but while watching it struck me you could do it with Natal. Just put spell cycle on a left hand wave, cast on the right.

But then I remember you have to navigate. Can be done on subcontroller with Move, Not sure about Natal. You could walk in place or something, but that would be pretty lame...

I suspect the navigation is done with one of the buttons on Move (Hold down to walk, like Heavy Rain). There is no subcontroller in the Sorcery demo.

Also, because there is no reticule, the game may estimate where the user is firing based on his absolute position in the game and the Move orientation. However I am not sure.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by patsu

I suspect the navigation is done with one of the buttons on Move (Hold down to walk, like Heavy Rain). There is no subcontroller in the Sorcery demo.

Also, because there is no reticule, the game may estimate where the user is firing based on his absolute position in the game and the Move orientation. However I am not sure.

Could also be very heavy aim assist. Closest target to the enter of the screen type of thing. If there aren't a lot of enemies (1 or 2 in view) the illusion of complete control won't be broken. Or if all your "damage" spells are Area of Effect, then again you won't lose the illusion of complete control.

Regards,
SB

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Could also be very heavy aim assist. Closest target to the enter of the screen type of thing. If there aren't a lot of enemies (1 or 2 in view) the illusion of complete control won't be broken. Or if all your "damage" spells are Area of Effect, then again you won't lose the illusion of complete control.

He was able to fire at spots where there is no monster. It blends in with his action too. That's why it's impressive.

We will know soon.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by (((interference)))

Yea, I definitely think Kinect is going to be a bigger success than Move, especially considering MS backs their initiatives to a much greater degree than Sony does - as devs like Joker has mentioned.

The tech bloggers seem to think so too:

EDIT:
http://gizmodo.com/5567221/how-sony-...-hardware-race

I don't think Gizmodo needs to worry for Sony. After looking at their E3 presentation, I think they should be fine by growing steadily from the core gamers. Nintendo is weaker here. And Kinect doesn't speak well to the core gamers. As long as they have a niche, they will grow based on existing Blu-ray momentum and new initiatives + games (e.g., My last hardcore 360 friend just bought a PS3 this morning out of the blue).

One wonders how deep their partnership with Google is at this moment.

[zed]

Ageing controllers fails, buttons get loose, etc.

If my mouse button breaks + only clicks maybe 9/10 x Im gonna get a new mouse cause thats not good enuf, youre comparing something that is working perfectly at the start vs something that is imperfectly working at the start

I saw the forza4 demo + it was strange sometimes theres like 300msec lag sometimes none, what the hells going on?
as Scott_Arm linked to above
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...m_campaign=rss

I was able to make subtle corrections to my steering, and I performed very well on my run. Of course, there seemed to be an assist or two turned on

aha that explains it not to mention you couldnt control acceleration,braking,gears etc. I dont know about car racers but arent they sorta important?

I do agree kinect has better buzz than move now, but I have a feeling when it actually launches and the foibles become apparent when ppl actually try it out themselves, it could turn out to be a bit of a misser

[Silent_Buddha]

Hmmm, I found this interesting from a link that was posted earlier...

Link... http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2...m_campaign=rss

I asked if the added Kinect support had much overhead. Is it chewing through processing cycles? "We have our own engine," I was told, as if that explained everything.

That seems to either support the fact that the developer is in control of what parts of Kinect are being used (less resources) and/or a developer can develope their own "Kinect control software" on the X360 which may or may not use as much resources as the default Kinect control software.

Different "control software" specially designed by Turn10 might explain why they didn't seem to be as limited to being in a certain area as other games. Then again Kinectimals shows gameplay control not limited to one area either. I'm still of the idea that demos being in one area is just easier for MS while they continue to finetune and calibrate the unit.

Edit - and this part from the same article about Your Shape...

The tech is certainly impressive, and the way it was able to sense my movements during the Yoga workout in order to give me pointers was amazing.

Damn, I cannot wait to try that title out.

Regards,
SB

[Rangers]

Originally Posted by Nesh

Oh I think it will be a smash hit with the casuals. I expect it to be a smash hit in general.

I'm not sure. From the get go I've labeled Kinect as a watch and see thing. I really dont have a clear idea where it's headed, whether it will be popular etc. Reminds me of Sony's home. I honestly thought that could be as huge as something like wow, but I wasn't sure, I could only wait and see.

Not to cause controversy but for Move I've got a better idea. I think given the tech and cost and Sony's hardcore focus, I think it's going to have a hard time surviving long term. But of course, I could be very wrong.

[patsu]

Move and Wiimote+ ? Nintendo and Sony will just co-develop this market together (whether they like it or not). They own different audiences afterall -- until the next Wii comes out that is.

The same for 3D gaming. ^_^

[obonicus]

Originally Posted by Rangers

Not to cause controversy but for Move I've got a better idea. I think given the tech and cost and Sony's hardcore focus, I think it's going to have a hard time surviving long term. But of course, I could be very wrong.

Given what next gen is probably going to be, even if interest on Move wanes completely, it'll probably reappear when the next generation rolls out.

[tha_con]

Originally Posted by Rangers

I'm not sure. From the get go I've labeled Kinect as a watch and see thing. I really dont have a clear idea where it's headed, whether it will be popular etc. Reminds me of Sony's home. I honestly thought that could be as huge as something like wow, but I wasn't sure, I could only wait and see.

Not to cause controversy but for Move I've got a better idea. I think given the tech and cost and Sony's hardcore focus, I think it's going to have a hard time surviving long term. But of course, I could be very wrong.

I disagree with your assessment that Sony is focusing on the core gamer. They're simply using their technology to appeal to a broader audience, which is what they should be doing. Simply trying to capture the 'casual' market isn't enough to get your product off the ground, and I think Microsoft has made a huge misstep with Kinect in that regard.

They should have been commissioning more development studios to make new core experiences instead of the software that was put on demonstration during their Press Conference.

I think Sony going with Sports Champions, Start the Party, Eyepet, and a number of other casual oriented titles, as well as a good number of core experiences like Killzone and Socom is a smart thing to do, since it'll help you sell better with your existing user base and new users all the same.

[patsu]

I agree that with PS Move, Sony is broadening its audience. However Sony seems to be focusing on core gamers more at the moment.

Shuhei mentioned that they split the resources 50/50 between core and casual gaming. So far, the core games are more visible. May be this is because the first parties are mostly adding Move to existing core games. Plus we are all very familiar with these games. In addition, most of the PS Move articles are aimed at the gamers and tech crowd. I haven't seen any that's written for say, female, kids or grand parents. To be fair, they will probably get better responses by doing what they do now -- unless they throw hundreds of millions at consumer marketing.

If what Shuhei said is true, then perhaps the ground up casual games will come later ? I can't really tell by sitting here.

[Brad Grenz]

Originally Posted by patsu

I suspect the navigation is done with one of the buttons on Move (Hold down to walk, like Heavy Rain). There is no subcontroller in the Sorcery demo.

He's got a navigation controller in his left hand during the Sorcery Demo. You can see pretty clearly in the beginning of the video posted upthread the Move controller is like rubber-banded to a second object that he takes in his off hand.

[patsu]

Originally Posted by Brad Grenz

He's got a navigation controller in his left hand during the Sorcery Demo. You can see pretty clearly in the beginning of the video posted upthread the Move controller is like rubber-banded to a second object that he takes in his off hand.

Aye, I see it now. Thanks !

[Scott_Arm]

The way Sorcery seems to work is he selects spells with the navigation control using the radial dial that comes up. Then when he swings the wand, it fires a spell in roughly the direction he is swinging, most likely with a good amount of aim assist since there is no reticle. Could be am assist free, but with a shaking motion, it would be difficult to control the vertical component of your aim. Maybe horizontal is aim assist free, but vertical has aim assist. It didn't seem like you could control the camera to tilt up or down. Some spells that you select obviously have certain motions you need to complete to prepare them, like the tornado.

When he drew the line of fire, did he point the wand at the screen? I know a reticle didn't come up. I'm wondering how you control the distance that the line begins away from you without some kind of pointer.

[Scott_Arm]

For Kinect CPU usage, it only makes sense that the fixed cost wouldn't be that big, but the more you use it, the more CPU usage you incur. I imagine there is a huge library of functions in the development kit. Depending on what you call, and how often, you'll use more processor time. There would be some basic functions you'd have to call to prep the hardware, and some amount of memory and processor time used reading the raw data from the device. You might be able to limit that by ignoring data from the 2D camera, or the time of flight camera, depending on what you want to do. Most of the processor time would be taken up by calling functions that interpret and manipulate that data. It would be just like any other device. The more data processing you do, the more CPU you use. Maybe at some point we'll be able to hear from devs about how much CPU time and memory you have to use to track a single skeleton etc.

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by Scott_Arm

The way Sorcery seems to work is he selects spells with the navigation control using the radial dial that comes up. Then when he swings the wand, it fires a spell in roughly the direction he is swinging, most likely with a good amount of aim assist since there is no reticle. Could be am assist free, but with a shaking motion, it would be difficult to control the vertical component of your aim. Maybe horizontal is aim assist free, but vertical has aim assist. It didn't seem like you could control the camera to tilt up or down. Some spells that you select obviously have certain motions you need to complete to prepare them, like the tornado.

When he drew the line of fire, did he point the wand at the screen? I know a reticle didn't come up. I'm wondering how you control the distance that the line begins away from you without some kind of pointer.

Unless there is kind of Calibration like Wii, where you can define the size and location of your display there will have to be some heavy aim assist. The game won't know if you have a 32" screen or a 60" screen.

That said, if there is calibration to let the game know screen size and location. And there is calibration to let the game know where the player is. And there is true 1 to 1 motion mapping. And the player doesn't move from his spot after calibration... Then it's quite possible to somewhat accurately "throw" at something displayed on screen.

[EDIT] Just watched the Sorc video from the Sony conference. Looks like there's a left aim assist zone, right aim assist zone, and center aim assist zone. If you watch when it shows him and the screen at the same time. Center is just a forward flick of the wand. While for right and left he holds the wand out to the side and flicks it.

For the Tornado it appears to track where you move the wand. And is it just me or when he's mending the bridge and doing the circular thingy, it seems to only be picking up 5 or 6 points in the circle. So rather than a nice circle to track his motion, it ends up as a very irregular polyhedron. Perhaps the game is lagging and dropping down to low frames and thus too low to track a the wand around every point of the circle.

Very cool with the multiple uses of some spells though. Burning hands (the flame arc) and wall of fire depending on gesture. And then combining it with tornado.

Didn't see anything that couldn't be done with Kinetic. There wasn't a demonstrated need for accuracy or fast response in that. Neither of which are strong points for an RPG adventure. Very cool possibilities though.

Regards,
SB

[scooby_dooby]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Didn't see anything that couldn't be done with Kinetic.

lol, other than move your character!?

I really don't see much potential in Kinect for any sort of remotely 'traditional' type of game. Move is far superior there. I think the problem for Sony though, is that their target market is much much smaller.

So, while Sony is creating a much better game controller, Kinect will probably be a much more successful product in the end. If you're measuring success by sales anyways...

[(((interference)))]

Originally Posted by Nebula

Dont know if already posted but saw this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398610

Well, that just shot down hopes of having Kinect enhancements to core, controller based games. Kinect has been watered down ridiculously from what the original vision shown last year was. You should always underpromise and overdeliver, not the other way round.

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Oh, now that's a very cool multiplayer creative use of Kinect that I never even thought of.

Imagine a hardcore FPS/TPS. But multiplayer co-op, you could have your partner be a medic/engineer. With one player using the controller in standard shooter fashion while the other player through Kinect can patch your wounds, build cover, lay out mines/traps, build and place turrets, spot for artillery, drive the vehicles...

That would be kinda cool and pretty unique.

Regards,
SB

Hmm, I think it will only be a gimmicky thing you try once and never again - have you ever played Geometry Wars in wingman mode? That's precisely the same thing and hardly anyone plays it more than once - too frustrating.

I really hope MS launch a Move like sub controller for Kinect, to enable more complex titles, rather than everything be on rails.

[Cyan]

Originally Posted by Nebula

Dont know if already posted but saw this:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=398610

Every time a new technology is created there are always obstacles, they have to find a way to sort them out and go on.

It's a very important issue for a technology with such a great potential and they can't get around the problem by pretending it doesn't exist.

I think developers and MS need to get their heads together to decide how they are going to get around this problem in the upcoming months and circumvent that.

Originally Posted by (((interference)))

The tech bloggers seem to think so too:



http://gizmodo.com/5567221/how-sony-...-hardware-race

I feel really sad I had to read that. I don't remember, ever, reading such an article full of hatred.

The author of the article shouldn't even be considered a journalist.

I mean it could have been written by a fanboy, but if that were the case.., those are actually FUN (I must admit some fanboy responses and thoughts make me laugh out loud, especially taking into account they are unpaid by their favourite company).

But an actual journalist writing something along the lines of that article is actually a sheer hater. I have never heard of that page before and I am glad it's the last time I'm goint to read an article of them.

The last sentence of the article is like one of those Horatio's one liners in CSI Miami, just the hater version.

[zed]

Why can't you just use the 360 controller to move your character ?

Yes you could be that defeats the whole purpose of kinect
remember its marketed as You are the controller i.e. you dont need a controller to use it, plus the default xbox360 controller is made to be held in two hands at once, thus they'ld have to come out with a single hand controller, something like the wii-mote or move controllers.
Look at the Forza demo all you control is basically left, right. I mean it cant hardly get more simple control scheme than that.
Now to add acceleration,brake,gears, handbrake,clutch etc controls.
What do you do? Its not so easy.
Lift the right leg up to accelerate, hiccup to change gear, wiggle you ears to engage the clutch
With a traditional controller you could do all this easily (plus theres less lag + it works 100% everytime).
I believe ppl are coming slowly around to my original points that kinect is best for party/fitness stuff, i.e. where accuracy is not important

[joker454]

Originally Posted by zed

Yes you could be that defeats the whole purpose of kinect

Not really. The purpose is to get non gamers interested, and that includes getting gamers playing together with non gamers. The simple example is a hardcore gamer that would love to play games with their spouse, but spouse would rather inhale ammonia than play hardcore games that are just too fast/confusing/complicated. So combine the two. Make a game that the hardcore can play like normal with a regular controller as always, but allow the option of having a non gamer join in the same game using kinect in some way. Dumb example might be while playing Red Dead Redemption, maybe non gamer handles simple things like the lasso, and gamer does everything else. Or in Blur, maybe non gamer selects and launches the powerups, while again gamer does everything else. Non gamer with kinect may play a very minor role but that's fine, it still is a way to get them both playing together. Then gamer can continue to feel all l33t while playing their hardcore game with their regular controller, and non gamer spouse can now finally also get to join in.

[Nesh]

Originally Posted by joker454

Not really. The purpose is to get non gamers interested, and that includes getting gamers playing together with non gamers. The simple example is a hardcore gamer that would love to play games with their spouse, but spouse would rather inhale ammonia than play hardcore games that are just too fast/confusing/complicated. So combine the two. Make a game that the hardcore can play like normal with a regular controller as always, but allow the option of having a non gamer join in the same game using kinect in some way. Dumb example might be while playing Red Dead Redemption, maybe non gamer handles simple things like the lasso, and gamer does everything else. Or in Blur, maybe non gamer selects and launches the powerups, while again gamer does everything else. Non gamer with kinect may play a very minor role but that's fine, it still is a way to get them both playing together. Then gamer can continue to feel all l33t while playing their hardcore game with their regular controller, and non gamer spouse can now finally also get to join in.

So what you suggest is either play with the controller, or without, or have two people play the same game simultaneously by having one do the motion stuff and the other do the rest.
The original question was though (Assuming an SP mode and that the casual non-gamer chooses to play with motion control), how can the player move the character around in the 3D environment while doing the body actions at the same time? Since you cant actually run in your room there is a need for something extra to do it (Wii and Move solve the problem with an analogue stick on one hand and another for motion control). This is where someone suggested the 360 controller. Which indeed defeats the purpose of the motion control method that MS communicates since its about 100% controller-free gaming if you choose to play the game with Kinect. Developers can use a hybrid method and I welcome it, but it sure limits the experiences that can use solely Kinect and what some people initially expected with the promise of controller-free gaming. At the end with a hybrid method it is more similar to Move and Wii than what was initially thought

[Silent_Buddha]

Originally Posted by Nesh

So what you suggest is either play with the controller, or without, or have two people play the same game simultaneously by having one do the motion stuff and the other do the rest.

Oh, now that's a very cool multiplayer creative use of Kinect that I never even thought of.

Imagine a hardcore FPS/TPS. But multiplayer co-op, you could have your partner be a medic/engineer. With one player using the controller in standard shooter fashion while the other player through Kinect can patch your wounds, build cover, lay out mines/traps, build and place turrets, spot for artillery, drive the vehicles...

That would be kinda cool and pretty unique.

Regards,
SB

[Nesh]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Oh, now that's a very cool multiplayer creative use of Kinect that I never even thought of.

Imagine a hardcore FPS/TPS. But multiplayer co-op, you could have your partner be a medic/engineer. With one player using the controller in standard shooter fashion while the other player through Kinect can patch your wounds, build cover, lay out mines/traps, build and place turrets, spot for artillery, drive the vehicles...

That would be kinda cool and pretty unique.

Regards,
SB

Oh yes it would be very unique and interesting. Although the problem is how would a SP experience be handled, can Kinect recognize two people interacting with each physically and what if the guy who holds the controller is sitting?

But I have other concepts in mind that could work well and would be really fun

Originally Posted by egoless

If you do it completely controller free for these types of games, it resorts to low-fi gestures ala wii sans motion plus, or something so physical you wouldn't want to play it. For the former, in the Kinect star wars concept video, he leaned forward to move his character forward. The suggestion is YOU become the analog stick. For the latter, you'd still lean, but add walk/run/stop in place and turn in the direction you want to go. Way to physical for this type of game, but right at home for a fitness type app.

Well since Star Wars was a part of a show to communicate the vision through spectacles than anything else it is impossible to discern how functional and comfortable it is to move a character like that around. We havent seen anything similar in live demonstration. From my gaming experience all these years, I find it extremely difficult to imagine precision movement in 3D space with Kinect for any of the games I have played so far. Unless the game of course is specifically designed with simplicity in mind (on rails? cruise control type of movement?) and expects limited movement in limited 3D space. I think that for games like 3rd person shooters etc a controller could be a necessity (if not designed with over-simplicity in mind).

[obonicus]

Originally Posted by Silent_Buddha

Oh, now that's a very cool multiplayer creative use of Kinect that I never even thought of.

Mario Galaxy does something of that nature. One player controls Mario, but another person can use a second wiimote to do the star bits stuff, which involves mostly pointing at the screen.

[egoless]

Originally Posted by Nesh

So what you suggest is either play with the controller, or without, or have two people play the same game simultaneously by having one do the motion stuff and the other do the rest.
The original question was though (Assuming an SP mode and that the casual non-gamer chooses to play with motion control), how can the player move the character around in the 3D environment while doing the body actions at the same time? Since you cant actually run in your room there is a need for something extra to do it (Wii and Move solve the problem with an analogue stick on one hand and another for motion control). This is where someone suggested the 360 controller. Which indeed defeats the purpose of the motion control method that MS communicates since its about 100% controller-free gaming if you choose to play the game with Kinect. Developers can use a hybrid method and I welcome it, but it sure limits the experiences that can use solely Kinect and what some people initially expected with the promise of controller-free gaming. At the end with a hybrid method it is more similar to Move and Wii than what was initially thought

If you do it completely controller free for these types of games, it resorts to low-fi gestures ala wii sans motion plus, or something so physical you wouldn't want to play it. For the former, in the Kinect star wars concept video, he leaned forward to move his character forward. The suggestion is YOU become the analog stick. For the latter, you'd still lean, but add walk/run/stop in place and turn in the direction you want to go. Way to physical for this type of game, but right at home for a fitness type app.