View Full Version : Boss calls it quits(polygonsheep?) 'pics added'
iscariot
15-Jun-2002, 05:37
http://cube.ign.com/articles/362/362327p1.html
I've always enjoyed their racers and was looking forward to their Xb title :(
Please note this thread is 5 years old :mrgreen:
Jingo--
15-Jun-2002, 06:32
Is Microsoft retarded?
Why in the world did they back out? Can never have too many racing games, especially ones as good as that. Sort of direct competition with Project Gotham series, but Boss Games racers always have a certain smooth feel to them, in my opinion
Extremely depressing news
cybamerc
15-Jun-2002, 09:11
Best of luck to ERP and the others in the future.
Should have stuck with Cube ;)
cybamerc
15-Jun-2002, 09:20
All joking aside I think it's sad to see a great developer having to close shop just because it couldn't find a publisher for *one* title. I think ppl often forget that smaller don't have unlimited funds when talking about the size of the industry and arguing against the likelihood of another crash happening.
Yeah, WDC and the first Rally racer for N64 are on my top racers of all time list. It's a shame. Good luck guys.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the good wishes.
It's just a real shame we couldn't get the game done.
I've worked on a number of canned games over the years, this is the only one that was canned despite being a good product albeit because the company ran out of cash.
I'm sure either Colin, or someone else will leak screenshots and video footage (I'll do it if no one else does). Personally I think the game looked really good.
And FWIW now theres nothing really to stop me talking about it.
This info is from the Xbox version.
Cars were 25000 polys (highest LOD), 4 textures/poly.
Base texture
Reflection map
a texture used to compute a fresnel term
Shadow map
Specular highlight (This was encoded in the alpha channel of the reflection map)
Most of the backgrounds were 2 or in some cases 3 textures/poly
I've measured peak in game polygon counts as high as 30M/sec.
I also did the game cube conversion that Colin mentions as a feasability excercise.
Jingo, why are you blaming Microsoft for this? Nothing in the article mentions Microsoft directly. It just says that Boss developed a game, and couldn't find a publisher, so they're going out of business.
Without knowing more, it's hard to say exactly why the game was canceled. We don't know if it was fun or not, or how much it was expected to cost to complete.
Note that future racing titles for Xbox will almost certainly have to have online play, which raises development costs.
We don't know how many other racing titles publishers expect to have coming out for the Xbox in the same timeframe.
Presumably the Nintendo port was done in the hopes of getting a publisher to publish the Nintendo version. It sounds like no-one was interested in that either.
Since racers are so easy to write on today's hardware, they're something of a comodity. You have to have a "hook", in terms of either licensed cars or some innovative gameplay, in order to be successful. It doesn't sound like this racer had anything special (besides nice graphics) going for it.
It might just be a case that every major publisher already had a good racer title for the Xbox, and nobody needed a second one.
nonamer
15-Jun-2002, 18:36
ERP: Is there anyway that you can somehow save the game? Like say, leak some screenshots, pull a "bitboy" and get some funding?
"ERP: Is there anyway that you can somehow save the game? Like say, leak some screenshots, pull a "bitboy" and get some funding?"
I won't say it's impossible, but it's certainly pretty improbable at this point.
Once you announce in a company wide meeting that your shutting up shop, it's pretty hard to go back.
I'm not going to go into the details of the MS cancellation, there were a large number of contributing factors.
Part of the problem with signing it with other publishers was the cost and inconvienience of licensing the cars.
We couldn't get away with not licensing them because the manufacturers provided images and in some cases CAD data that we used to create the models.
We had been pretty close to signing with a number of publishers, at the end of the day we ran out of funding.
As I said screenshots will most likely be leaked, and we put together some videos for people to use in their resumes, so they'll probably show up aswell.
Fafalada
15-Jun-2002, 19:20
So it is real :|
I half refused to believe the news at first, but I guess it really happened...
Oh well... :( Good luck to you and your workmates in future stuff ERP.
Btw, if you didn't loose my email during the closing, I wouldn't mind seeing some of those screens though ;)
Posted: 15 Jun 2002 18:20 Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it is real :|
I half refused to believe the news at first, but I guess it really happened...
Oh well... Good luck to you and your workmates in future stuff ERP.
Btw, if you didn't loose my email during the closing, I wouldn't mind seeing some of those screens though
I just sent you some email.
Hopefully everyone will find jobs quickly, personally I'm taking a few weeks off before I start looking.
BTW when did they change GA to the have to apply for membership thing? Guess it must be a while since I posted there.
As an asside, after my earlier somewhat heartless post, let me say it's always depressing and frustrating when a company folds and a project gets canceled. I hope everyone at the company finds good work soon. At least the weather in Seattle is pretty nice this time of year.
Say ERP, how would the GameCube version have compared to the Xbox version? Were there any advantages to the 'cube? Anything that was especially cool about either platform?
The Xbox is substantially faster than the GC. That combined with the size of our datasets would have meant substantial asset rework on the GC version.
In the end they would have looked similar, but the Xbox version would have been superior.
To my mind the cubes biggest strength is the simplicity of getting product upto speed, it's somewhat simple transform pipeline and low latency memory is very forgiving of implementation details.
The Xbox is probably as easy to get things up and running on, but to get good performance out of it requires a good understandig of how the OS, the hardware and the D3D "driver" interact with each other. It's pretty easy to get poor performance out of Xbox if you approach the problem in the wrong way.
cybamerc
16-Jun-2002, 00:07
ERP:
Any particular reason why you didn't try to get the Cube version published? I mean, I can understand why you had your minds set on the Xbox version considering the time you've spent on it but when it's a matter of paying the bills.... it's not like there's a huge selection of racing games for the Cube :/
Just out of curiosity, how complete was the Cube port compared to the Xbox version and what framerate did you manage to get it running at (if you can/don't mind telling)? Also did you grab any screens from that version?
Anyway, let's hope the IGNcube article generates some response.
Yeah I'm really suprised and dissapointed that somebody didnt pick the game up for at least the Cube. We really could have used a good GT3/Project Gotham killer these first 6 months. I'd also like to know how well the fps was on the Cube compared to the mighty XB.
Also ERP, If you could have found a publisher for either system, how soon could you have released it on either platform? And how much $$ would it have took for the publisher to put it out? I understand if you'd have to be vague in your answer here. Thanks!
Obviously the game was targeted at Xbox. The Game cube port was built as a feasability excercise, so that we could offer publishers two sku's instead of just one to make the product more attractive.
We were scheduled to finish work on the Xbox version around the end of August (it would have shipped for Xmas). Had we found a publisher soon enough we could have completed the GC version shortly afterwards.
In terms of cost, I'd rather not comment since I'm not certain about the figures that were thrown around.
In terms of what was and wasn't done, most of the car graphics were in game though not all cars had their performance characteristics set up. None of the upgrade paths for the cars were complete. The championship progress (similar in a lot of ways to WDC) was incomplete. Arcade mode and time attack worked, although no time had been put into balancing the races. There was a basic network play mode that supported 6 player Lan, and it should have scaled pretty well to internet play.
Graphically most of the major work was done, there were a few things we wanted to add, Headlight projections on the road, an additional diffuse shadow under the car, and reflective wet roads.
We would have reduced the complexity of the assets in order to keep the GC version running at 60 rather than dropping the frame rate to 30fps, the XBox datasets were too large to fit in the GC's memory anyway. Probably we'd have used our 12000 poly LOD cars and scaled back the backgrounds to make them fit.
There was some question as to whether the GC could run the full physics model for all the cars, although vectorising the ground collision code would probably have addressed the CPU performance issues that were present in the quick port.
If your looking for a performance comparison, as I stated above there is a large performance disparity between the two graphics chips, I'd rather not start a flame war by putting hard numbers on it.
Again as I've mentioned here before, it's debatable how much of a visual difference that disparity will give you.
ERP,
I wish you Good Luck for the future. I was really looking forward to your racing game.
Those licensing cost is really high huh ? So no publishers want to take the risk ? I don't really understand the financing of games company, I always thought you get publisher first before investing money and time on the game. I guess with alot of publishers going into financial trouble, they are more worry in taking risk now days.
Well I hope I can get some glimpse of your work even though only through screens.
Hey ERP, would you or any people you worked with be willing to move? Our office in Colorado is looking for experienced people. Also we're looking for games to publish... If your interested. Send me an e-mail qroach@toronto.vr1.com and I'll put you in contact with the proper people.
Where was Boss games located again?
Qroach, who are u with, Saffire? Arent they located in Denver? Speaking of which, they have been very quiet lately. Anyone know what happened to them? They were working on a shooter that looked like MGS/Rogue Spear type of game for the Cube and alot of other stuff for it and Xbox..what is going on with them?
cybamerc
16-Jun-2002, 23:18
Boss Games is located in Redmond, Washington. Quincy works for VR1 Entertainment and Saffire is dead (IIRC).
i would like to join the other to wish the best of luck to ERP and the rest of Boss Games
news about a good company closing up shop is always depressing
-aneep-
MrSingh
17-Jun-2002, 15:38
ERP, truly sorry to hear about the turn of events. I hope things turn out good for you. best wishes to you no matter what you choose to do. hope you continue posting on this board, you're one of my favorite posters!
Hey ERP, I possibly have some very good news for you. If you read this before my e-mail. Please give me a call at work 416-536-9833 ext: 222 (if I'm not at my desk please leave a message with a phone number I can contact you with.
archie4oz
17-Jun-2002, 18:37
Wow! :o :o :o
So sorry to hear about it! And here I am thinking it's safe to start looking around... :oops:
Good luck to you in searching for new work.
Hey ERp, How many copies did WDC as well as TGR for N64 sell? Just curious. thanks!
Goldni
Not sure of the exact figures, but TGR is close to 1 million world wide.
WDC caught the tail end of the N64 market and pretty much bombed
(<100K units).
BenSkywalker
18-Jun-2002, 11:06
Best of luck to you ERP. I can't imagine how it must feel to work so long on a good project then have to walk away from it because of funding issues. However remote the possibility, I hope something can be worked out so at the very least you can finish up your game and get it out.
Have any of the screenshots from your game been leaked yet? I've been waiting to get a look at it for some time.
EPe9686518
19-Jun-2002, 08:50
ERP please check your PM, I would love to help out any way possable. I think I speak for everyone when I say how much the gaming world will miss you guys, good luck on what ever do next.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the good wishes.
It's just a real shame we couldn't get the game done.
I've worked on a number of canned games over the years, this is the only one that was canned despite being a good product albeit because the company ran out of cash.
I'm sure either Colin, or someone else will leak screenshots and video footage (I'll do it if no one else does). Personally I think the game looked really good.
And FWIW now theres nothing really to stop me talking about it.
This info is from the Xbox version.
Cars were 25000 polys (highest LOD), 4 textures/poly.
Base texture
Reflection map
a texture used to compute a fresnel term
Shadow map
Specular highlight (This was encoded in the alpha channel of the reflection map)
Most of the backgrounds were 2 or in some cases 3 textures/poly
I've measured peak in game polygon counts as high as 30M/sec.
I also did the game cube conversion that Colin mentions as a feasability excercise.
Sorry for bumping this really old thread.
Have any of the pictures or videos ERP mentioned been released?
iscariot
27-Nov-2002, 21:13
this it?
http://www.polygonsheep.com/boss_xbox_racer_full.wmv
marconelly!
27-Nov-2002, 21:18
So boss games is now called Polygonsheep and they are still making their racer?
Polygon sheep is a domain owned by one of the EXBossgame programmers.
I have a bunch of videos, but they're all really big (200MB+), and I have nowhere with enough upstream bandwidth to host them <shrug>.
my condolences ERP. I hope you have better luck in the future. You'd think with the amount of attention a game could bring to their cars they'd be more willing to make a compromise.
if you want ERP i can help host them. I am on cable but i think i can have some of my friends help as well.
DeathKnight
28-Nov-2002, 05:48
The ex-BossGames dev who owns that site posted the video over at TeamXbox. His site is so extremely slow, however, that I was unable to get that video. No one's put up any mirrors either.
iscariot
28-Nov-2002, 11:36
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/draikin2/bscap0.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/draikin2/bscap1.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/draikin2/bscap2.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/draikin2/bscap3.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/draikin2/bscap4.jpg
http://perso.wanadoo.fr/draikin2/bscap5.jpg
looks good :)
(thanks to Draikin@ GA for the pics)
PC-Engine
28-Nov-2002, 11:55
Indeed.. 8)
Iron Tiger
07-Sep-2007, 16:18
Does anyone know if video of this game is on YouTube or anywhere? If not, might someone be so kind and post it up?
Does anyone know if video of this game is on YouTube or anywhere? If not, might someone be so kind and post it up?
Alright I'm bored enough to actually look...
It doesn't look like I have the one Derek posted way back on polygonsheep, I do have a bunch of other videos from what look like late builds of the game.
Gamma seems to be off in most of them, since they were built from raw screen captures, and I'm having problems playing them in XP because of the Indeo video codec.
If I can find something that can read them I'll transcode them into something more friendly and stick them somewhere.
Looks like I also have several screen captures from the game.
Acert93
09-Sep-2007, 10:02
Very cool ERP, I look forward to seeing them :)
Total side note: Boss Studios was very kind to me back in the N64 era. A friend and I had begun a PC/Console Tech and Game ezine while we were in High School. It was a hobby of sorts, and no one really took us seriously... but Boss did! They sent us media and were very encouraging. I lived in the Seattle area and regret never taking a quick trip to their offices to say thanks (I could not drive is my excuse!) A little late, but thanks ERP & Boss.
A little late, but thanks EPR & Boss.
You mean ERP. :razz:
OK looking a bit dated, since they are circa 2002/2003 on Xbox 1, but there are 3 composite videos that were made up at at the end of development, temporarilly up on my website they are all the original encodes from 2002/2003 so you'll need to find the codecs. I found medai player 10+ had issues with them, but they played fine in media player classic.
http://www.polygonhell.com
And Since I just wanted to try out the new video embeddingI reencoded one shrank it and stuck it on youtube, I think this is the same one Derek originally posted on polygonsheep.
K1R2mJ21Cdw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1R2mJ21Cdw)
AlStrong
10-Sep-2007, 18:39
:shock: That looks like it could put PGR2 to shame. The leaves on the road is a nice touch. :cool:
For great justice. :cry:
Shifty Geezer
10-Sep-2007, 19:21
Trees are very good. Put GT's to shame - even GT5's!
StefanS
10-Sep-2007, 19:22
Trees are very good. Put GT's to shame - even GT5's!
Yeah, it's really a pity that nobody picked up this title after Boss folded.
fearsomepirate
10-Sep-2007, 20:28
I think it looks better than Forza did at that stage...60 fps too! ERP, in your Gamecube feasibility port, did you get those projected shadows working?
No, GC version was pretty basic when we went belly up, you could play it with basic graphics, and I was working on getting a PS2 version running at the same level.
Reflections and Shadows would likely have been affected in any port. The lighting on the car was pretty complex, although not by todays standards, but had we continued we'd likely have just re-written that part of the rendering for a GC port.
fearsomepirate
10-Sep-2007, 23:25
Do the assets and code for this game still exist? If so, who technically owns them?
Don't know who owns the Assets and code.
My best guess would be John McCaw's group (primary investor in Boss Game) owns them.
I have a running disc, obviously requires a devkit,
I probably have copies of most of the assets, tools and code somewhere, but I'd have to look for them. At one point post Boss I considered doing a port to PC just for fun, but I never got around to it. Plus the legal issues with the licensed vehicles would have made it impossible to release even for free.
Acert93
11-Sep-2007, 02:15
Graphically, that looked very nice ERP!
Kudos, that looks impressive indeed...
Jabjabs
12-Sep-2007, 02:46
Not bad at all, damn shame it never got finished but that's jsut the way these things go I suppose, reminded me of that Ford World Tour game from a few years back combined with Forza.
I also love the fact that sometimes the cars are floating slightly above the track, that's a sure sign of an "in development" game right there. ;)
london-boy
20-Sep-2007, 23:28
OK looking a bit dated, since they are circa 2002/2003 on Xbox 1, but there are 3 composite videos that were made up at at the end of development, temporarilly up on my website they are all the original encodes from 2002/2003 so you'll need to find the codecs. I found medai player 10+ had issues with them, but they played fine in media player classic.
http://www.polygonhell.com
And Since I just wanted to try out the new video embeddingI reencoded one shrank it and stuck it on youtube, I think this is the same one Derek originally posted on polygonsheep.
K1R2mJ21Cdw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1R2mJ21Cdw)
That was you ERP and your band singing in your garage, wasn't it... Go on, admit it...
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