Console forum locked? [Archive]

Entropy

28-Nov-2003, 14:46

ok i'm going off topic even here... :wink:

**imagines Dave accidentally clicking on the Delete Entire Forum button... Screaming NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!**

I almost never post in the console forum. My competence doesn't overlap the content there very well.
However, it has been abundantly clear that there are a couple of posters that keep spawning off-topic threads.

My position on this is that they should be banned.
I've seen single individuals completely ruin newsgroups, causing the competent folks to throw up their hands in disgust and walk off, leaving only the people with too much time on their hands to hang around and perpetuate the bickering. I'm even of the opinion that those people can be banned who regard the forum as their own personal playground where they just have to chime in on every topic with a useless opinion, or (as above) going off topic. Perhaps a reprimand is sufficient.

It may indeed be best for Beyond3D as a whole if the console forum was dropped. The useless would loose their playground and go build their sand castles somewhere else, the more generally gfx-knowledgeable/interested might diffuse into the other fora on the site.

It is very obvious however that the console forum is nowhere near the quality of the rest of the site. The signal (because there are definitely some quite knowledgeable people there!) is quite solidly buried in the noise.
IMO, get rid of the noise either by banning or by ditching the forum completely.

qwerty2000

28-Nov-2003, 15:03

If you do drop the console forum everbody is gong to start leaving the beyond 3d forum. That would be a stupid idea to do

london-boy

28-Nov-2003, 15:07

one thing is for sure, the Site Feedback forum has never been so active in the enitre history of B3D :lol:

Dropping the console fourm would be suicide for the boards. May give the site more credibility by dropping the kids, but it's not like the General Boards and to some extent the 3d Tech & Hardware are much better anyway, especially the General one.

Dave Baumann

28-Nov-2003, 15:10

The first thing to bear in mind is that the Console Forum here is an aberration. It is not what the site is focused and, in all honesty, I wouldn't really care if it existed or not - it would certainly cut down the number of PM's I get winging about it!

The only reason the Console Forum exists at all is because during the period of the Xbox announcement and development we, naturally, got a number of people talking about NV2A in the 3D Tech Forum, which gradually spanned other console hardware and eventually games. The console forum is there basically to divert those types of discussions away from the 3D tech & PC forums. In reality they are not a part of this site - we provide the forum because we recognise that a number of our frequent posters also wished to discuss Console hardware and games.

That was the historical reasons for the forum existing, and as the site has been up there have been people that have migrated to that forum directly without much understanding what "Beyond3D" is really about and certainly have no historical understanding of why the forum exists. And they don't necessarily treat it with the same level of respect that I would expect from the rest of B3D users.

Now, while undoubtedly there are some bad eggs in there, but generally I look at that as an effect, not necessarily the cause. We all enjoy picking up on rumours, talk and hype, but some in there appear to be taking it to extremes - the point were many of the serious posters have just giving up going there because there very little point in having a rational discussion.

WRT to "chap" it's not a simple case of banning a dial up user, since you'd also have to block everyone else on the IP subnet, which is not desirable. I've not had to put in blocks on Yahoo and Hotmail accounts in order to stop reregistering under different free mail accounts - this is not something I wished to do since we have many a registered user with Hotmal or Yahoo addresses and they don't feel the need to abuse the forums, and I may now be stopping other new member joining that could also abide by the conduct we prefer here.

Consider the locking of the Console forum as a cooling off period. I'm not sure how long it will last - it might be a few hours or it might be a month. If the types of issues we appear to be getting now continue when its re-opened then I may choose to remove it entirely. This is a warning to all users of the Console forum.

Grall

28-Nov-2003, 15:11

I don't think the forum needs to - or even should - be killed, but it DOES need to be watched over by the site admins.

They hardly ever peek their noses in there, and they like NEVER intervenes to steer errant threads back on course. I know I too needs watching sometimes, so it would help me as well. :)

So, this has to change. More activity from the big hats please!

*G*

Dave Baumann

28-Nov-2003, 15:24

If you do drop the console forum everbody is gong to start leaving the beyond 3d forum. That would be a stupid idea to do

Wrong. Everyone who comes purely for the Console forum would leave, but thiats no great issue. Everyone who comes for what this site is actually focused on (which is actually the majority of people) would stay.

I don't think the forum needs to - or even should - be killed, but it DOES need to be watched over by the site admins.

Why? As I said, this is not the sites focus so why should we babysit a forum that is not the focus of the site. We [site admin] are all very busy trying to do things that is the focus of the site, we shouldn't need to spend time babysitting that forum. We provide that forum as a curtesy, if people want to abuse it then we will respond in kind.

Reverend

28-Nov-2003, 15:31

About bloody fucking time, I say. It was great initially during the XBOX time (which was the reason it was created for, like Dave said) but there are just too much noise in there that I almost want to puke each time I force myself to visit the forum.

maskrider

28-Nov-2003, 15:39

Well, I started to come to Beyond3d during the early days of PC 3D development, and enjoy reading many articles (and have certainly learned quite a lot of stuffs), then joined the forum and gradually (PC 3D games are no longer that interesting) moved to mostly in Console Talk forum.

I had not contributed much but I do love the forums and Beyond3D.

In the early days, the discussions are really interesting, it is like some rotten thing these days, I'd rather it being removed than seeing it deterioates like it is now.

That's what I think is the right thing to do to remove all the hassle and let the guys concentrate back on 3D (and me too, ha ha :D).

Phil

28-Nov-2003, 15:47

Entropy, DaveBaumann:

I almost never post in the console forum. My competence doesn't overlap the content there very well.
However, it has been abundantly clear that there are a couple of posters that keep spawning off-topic threads.

My position on this is that they should be banned.
I've seen single individuals completely ruin newsgroups, causing the competent folks to throw up their hands in disgust and walk off, leaving only the people with too much time on their hands to hang around and perpetuate the bickering. I'm even of the opinion that those people can be banned who regard the forum as their own personal playground where they just have to chime in on every topic with a useless opinion, or (as above) going off topic. Perhaps a reprimand is sufficient.

It may indeed be best for Beyond3D as a whole if the console forum was dropped. The useless would loose their playground and go build their sand castles somewhere else, the more generally gfx-knowledgeable/interested might diffuse into the other fora on the site.

It is very obvious however that the console forum is nowhere near the quality of the rest of the site. The signal (because there are definitely some quite knowledgeable people there!) is quite solidly buried in the noise.
IMO, get rid of the noise either by banning or by ditching the forum completely.

Very well said. Being a frequent user to the console forum, it is pretty clear that that particular forum has experienced a steady decrease in quality since around then. It is actually quite sad because that quality was the reason that ultimately led me to register and participate. Since then, many of those quality posters have either moved on or their input is either lost under the noise as you mentioned. It isn't hard to feel cheated, especially those who have tried to encourage the forum getting back to its original quality. I see a few reasons to be responsable for the overall decrease:

Any board will eventually always get those single individuals that drift off topic or perpetuate in the bickering. I think getting a few moderators to actually moderate the forum was a good idea, but the execution itself leaves much to be desired. On one hand, both moderators seem to be in constant stress and thus not always the time to check on the forums. I truly feel for them. Anytime a thread gets locked, I can imagine they get overwhellmed with PMs questioning their ability. The problem I see is that the moderators do have the ability to edit/delete/lock posts and topics, but they don't have the ability to ban members. I understand banning can be difficult, especially when a user in on dial up, but I also think that the forum should not become a victim of those posters because of that. It would be unfair to close the forum for ever as the majority of posters do seem to try. I do however also understand that it must be an utter annoyance to be bugged by PMs because of a forum that really has little to do with beyond3d itself.

Dave, wouldn't it be possible to give the mods more power? That in turn would free you [the site admins] from those PMs. I don't think 'babysitting' should be necessary.

Rodéric

28-Nov-2003, 16:05

For the record, I've no problem with the Console Forum being removed, I find that it sucks valuable Beyond3D space and bandwidth.

It's just that I don't like the idea of a forum being locked without prior warning.

Dio

28-Nov-2003, 16:10

Dave, I would suggest putting a topic in the console forum to state why it was locked. It will cut down on the whinging and PM's :)

darkblu

28-Nov-2003, 17:02

Dave,

though i fully understand your position regarding the console forum, i believe it would be a pitty to send it down the drain. the console forum turned up to being a place for 'lightening up' for the beyond3d-core visitors (i've noticed quite a few core visitors dropping by the console forum, me included), and has also proven to be a good place to gather info and gossip about console hw and titles. plus, there are quite a few true contributers in that forum who seem to feel at home there.

please, consider not shutting it down, even if it takes additional moderator effort to baby-sit it. i, for one, would volunteer to join the console mods team and help them in their efforts to keep the signal-noise ratio at proper levels. moreover, lately i've been frequenting the forum almost on par with the core forums, so i could use that time for helping the console mods.

MfA

28-Nov-2003, 17:07

Bah ... I dislike it when people are unable to ignore shit, much more than the actual trolling itself.

Just close it ... moderation is ultimately an excercise in selfdelusion. A community will use the forum as it sees fit, if you dont like it close it. It's your ball, but not your game. A warning wont change anything, maybe if you close it enough to loose most regulars then you can reopen it again ...

Paul

28-Nov-2003, 17:27

Give me another hour and a half and then you can close it.

Please :D

zurich

28-Nov-2003, 17:38

edit: let me rephrase.

I enjoy the forum and certain posters input, however I think the noise-to-signal problem could be fixed with a well placed bullet or four. However, if the powers that be feel that the console forum's entire existence is an embarassment to Beyond3D, then don't do us any favours.

Sorry for the snarky tone, but what can be said when 3-4 bad apples ruin it for everyone.

maskrider

28-Nov-2003, 17:44

This version of the forum couldn't do too many things the others can. Like Ignore list, warnings threshold before banned, etc.

I feel that those people who causes problems will not wake up until they were older and have more social experience. But the problem is that there will always be many people like that, you simply cannot avoid them.

I would say just remove the forum (although I certainly miss it and the good members that participated in it) and let Beyond3D be Beyond3D without any other non-core stuffs.

jvd

28-Nov-2003, 18:54

May I suggest starting the console forum on a clean slate and give it a months chance. If the console forum can't stay flame clean then it should be taken out. Hopefully with a clean slate many of the old problems will be taken out .

Grall

28-Nov-2003, 19:00

The console forum fills an even bigger purpose this time than last, with ATi supplying hardware to both Nintendo and Microsoft. Removing it will not fix anything, that will just make postsers migrate to other parts of the site, most likely along with the issues they bring.

The console forum will always be noisier than the rest of the site, but with some measures it will be manageable. Admins don't need to BABYSIT the forum, but it would be appreciated if they established more of a presence there and help educate newcomers of what is expected of a Beyond3D user.

The console forum fills a valuable role, it is still one of, if not the, most valuable source for console info on the web. Just deleting it would be a damn shame!

*G*

jvd

28-Nov-2003, 19:04

well of course before deleting it they could back it up. Perhaps they can even set up an archives . I've been reading about this forum software so I can use it on a guild website i'm making and people are saying it slows down with to many topics and pictures in it. So perhaps pasting them as a normal webpage on another section of the site would help the forums out. Perhaps have a link from the main page to forum archives and anything from over a year would be put in the archives after the console section is started over again .

maskrider

28-Nov-2003, 19:15

Well, the forum is good in itself, but the bickering degraded it a lot. Those immature kids can be persuaded nor taught in a short period of time. Who would want to waste that much time teaching kids this and that. I have a hard time teaching my own kids and I will simply ignore them as is.

If we cannot ban them, I would say just remvoe the whole thing. Keeping the archive for the valuable stuffs are fine for sure.

It is too hard for just two part-time moderators. Just too many problems to be taken by too few people.

notAFanB

28-Nov-2003, 19:27

Well, the forum is good in itself, but the bickering degraded it a lot. Those immature kids can be persuaded nor taught in a short period of time.

well it's not like we didnt play our part in dragging out some OT needlessly. in hindsight it's probably not a good idea to continue in threads where the participants are talking past each other.

JVD:

Archiving the past threads seems like a good idea (for reference). but I can kinda see eveyone 'mirgrating' to other parts of the forum. General Discussion in particular has been bogged down of late.

regarding the probabation period, I'm not clear how it's possible to keep the forum flamefree as this is very dependent on how persistent the posters are??

late now night fellas

jvd

28-Nov-2003, 19:46

Well i'm hoping that not only the mods (myself who has been away due to a wedding and my pc not liking water and sonic who also has a full time job) but the posters step it up a bit. With a clean slate of the forum and some official topics that anything off topic or flames or bait would be deleted asap and anything responding to those posts would also be deleted might help the forum go a long way.

maskrider

28-Nov-2003, 19:52

I don't have authority but I have tried my best to not participate in those worthless bickerings and tried to created some other interesting topics to divert the attention, but the people (or kids ) are too decided to flame the others.

I believe the best thing is the removal of the forum and keep all stuffs within the related forums (as they are now). Console forum is not needed at the moment unless the next gen consoles are officially announced. The hate for the kids are just too much to be taken.

Saem

28-Nov-2003, 21:13

I agree with Dave completely. The console forum for the most part is used to drive the crap away from the rest of the site -- much akin to a trash can. That's how I saw it when it first came about. If it's becomming an issues where B3D site admins are having their attention diverted then it should go. It was brought here to make the "crows" look at the shiney forum and leave the rest of the site clean. Excuse my harsh words, but that's my view of things.

That being said, there are some very good and interesting discussions that go on in there. There are even core (wrt site focus) community members that visit there and obviously derive something from it. Perhaps, the easiest way would be to create two types of console forum citizens -- not sure if this can be done, I haven't played with PHPBB for a long time. Basically, one group can induct new "approved members", who will have the power to create new topics. Those posters who demonstrate that they're capable of conducting themselves can be brought into the approved member list -- INVITATION ONLY!

I agree with MfA in that the community will do with the fora as it pleases.

Personally, I wouldn't mind moderating. Just deleting severely off topic posts of clean/deleting flames would do the trick. By flames I mean the obvious stuff like, "you're an idiot."

Neeyik

28-Nov-2003, 21:43

Personally I'm unconcerned as to whether the console forum stays or not, but what does bother me is the way certain console-only users insist on starting threads in other sections of the board that are nothing more than thinly disguised playground name-calling game. If they're here only because the console forum is, then I'd be the first person in the queue clicking the "forum-remove" button.

One simple question solves the whole problem though - does the Beyond3D site need the Console Forum to remain popular and progressive? I know what my answer is.

qwerty2000

28-Nov-2003, 22:49

Neeyik

28-Nov-2003, 22:58

One simple question solves the whole problem though - does the Beyond3D site need the Console Forum to remain popular and progressive? I know what my answer is.

Yes it does if you remove it forever you'll lose vistors and some people do come for the console forum they would leave too. So you'll lose members that would not be a smart move if you get rid of it.
Clearly you will lose some visitors but I ask again - does Beyond3D need that particular forum to remain popular and progressive?

Do you think that B3D is regularly in the news because of the forum? Do you think that The Inquirer reguarly quotes the B3D forums because of the console forum? Will the devs, that have their own dedicated forum space, will stop writing for the site if the console forum is removed? Does B3D review consoles? Does B3D write articles about consoles? Is B3D a console specific website?

How many visitors do you think visit the webspace on the B3D server for nothing more than to write in the console forum? Do you think that B3D will disappear from the news or fail to gain new insights about the latest 3D hardware if they and the console forum disappear?

Dave Baumann

28-Nov-2003, 22:59

Yes it does if you remove it forever you'll lose vistors and some people do come for the console forum they would leave too.

Good lord could such a thing happen? Mmmm, I hadn't considered that! :roll:
:wink:

So you'll lose members that would not be a smart move if you get rid of it.

Do you know the full statistics of B3D's traffic and what gains us the most traffic / ad impressions in comparison to the time spent and what attracts more users? I don't really think you do.

qwerty2000

28-Nov-2003, 23:16

Why do you know dave

Dave Baumann

28-Nov-2003, 23:30

Its my server - I have stats coming out of my ears!

Dio

28-Nov-2003, 23:40

cybamerc

28-Nov-2003, 23:41

Tagrineth

29-Nov-2003, 00:26

Personally... I'd be disappointed if the console forum disappeared.

I know my opinion really doesn't count for much among everyone else's, but oh well, I'd stick around and probably participate more in other parts of the forum as a whole, though unfortunately most of the current threads floating around don't interest me much. :( *sigh* Well, whatever, I leave the decision in Dave's capable hands.

Reverend

29-Nov-2003, 01:08

Console forum gone = kids stay home

Kids at B3D forums = usually intolerable stuff

Console forum stays locked indefinitely. Like Dave says, no decision made about to delete it entirely or not. If it's re-opened and the same friggin shit happens, I think you'll know what would likely happen.

Tahir2

29-Nov-2003, 01:21

One thing that may happen is that since the Console Forum is gone some of the users that have a habit of posting trashy comments all the bleeding time would exercise this in the main 3D Technology Forums instead.

Unlikely but if it does happen that would be a shame.

The Console Forum did have a purpose beyond its initial design and did attract a lot of users who actively participated in discussions. If you look at the amount of people who are reasonable and find use of the Console Forum compared to the users that have a clear undesired agenda you would find that they can be counted on one hand IMHO.

How can a few members bring an entire forum down is a testament to the misguided passion these users feel and lack of powers the admins have in curbing this trend.

Killing the Console Forum entirely would be a mistake Dave on the basis that The Console Forums are a part of the site as a whole, no matter what you think of its worth. It certainly is worthy in principle. Curbing the trend of the Console Forum IS an issue and would require too many resources. that you feel you cannot devote. However killing it entirely would be simply a shame.

If this is the ultimate issue then there is no choice but to change it so that no one can post on it except say Sonic and JVD with daily/weekly news updates. I believe Sonic did mention this in an earlier topic he posted.

There is no need to murder it just yet. ;)

zurich

29-Nov-2003, 04:40

Panajev2001a

29-Nov-2003, 06:11

What is up with the PC related elitism around here ( nothing wrong with your being proud of what you like and work'are interested in, but that does not mean you should hate the rest as inferior and pathetic ) ?

People that post only in the 3D Hardware forums are not the only smart ones on the board.

And what is Kid-sy about consoles anyways ?

Console technology is kiddy ?

Working for long years to develop wonderful new technology under extreme price constraints ( they cnanot just release the new Hardware at $500+...cough...PC GPUs.. cough... ) is not kiddy...

The Billions that are spent in related R&D is not kiddy either...

What is the problem in banning and then controlling new accounts by having the mod approve the account before it is activated and limit the free ones...

Yes there are tons of good people that use hotmail and stuff... but what is the problem... it is not like you are banning them too, they already have an active account.

Ban the troublemakers and set new accounts to be activated by the mods.

Clashman

29-Nov-2003, 06:20

As cybamerc had pointed out, in many ways 3dfx/ATI/nvidia et al users behave in much the same way, (not to mention how the knives start flyin' in the General Discussion forum). Moreover, I also hold that console technology is every bit as relevant to 3D as PC tech is. In fact, it is often in consoles where you see leading edge 3D technologies break first, where untraditional architectures are attempted, and where new rendering features are first featured. Yes, there have certainly been some pissing matches springing up recently, but frankly they were at this site long before the console forum was ever created.

This is your site, and it's up to you to choose what you want to do. But please take these things into consideration before making your decision.

BRiT

29-Nov-2003, 06:23

I almost expected to see a poll by Curby asking "Why is the Console forum locked? Does Microsoft have anything to do with this?" :lol:

zsouthboy

29-Nov-2003, 06:25

I am strangely reminded of an old poem.

"There's a girl in 3C
with a wart on her knee
and a pimple upon her behind.
I gave her 3p
and she showed it to me
now wasn't that awfully kind."
P.S. Wonder what she'd do for a quid?

Bill Oddie, IIRC.

I've never heard that one before. LOL!

On topic: Why not have big bold letters that say "No Flame Wars, No Tolerance!" ? You post flames, you get banned? Though that would be a bigger load on the mods, and then we have the definition of "flames"... etc.

Hmm. Whatever you guys decide is fine with me, as of late the quality of the posts in Consoles has certainly dropped.

Now how about some nv40 info? :P

K.I.L.E.R

29-Nov-2003, 06:27

Panajev2001a

29-Nov-2003, 06:32

Our mission is still to deliver an honest view on 3D architectures, technology, software, and hardware.

Software is mentioned in the site's focus.

General discussion is a relaxation based forum. The general discussion forum isn't drowning in the same filth as the console forum and that's the difference to why the console forum is locked and general discussion isn't locked.

Console do meet those criterias about interesting 3D Technology ( last I checked ) , Architecture, Hardware and Software info and discussion topics.

Do not say that aside "my game is better than yours" that there is not space for intelligent discussions on console hardware and its games ( which can and often are analyzed under a more technical perspective rarely found in other forums ).

Clashman

29-Nov-2003, 06:42

The general discussion forum isn't drowning in the same filth as the console forum and that's the difference to why the console forum is locked and general discussion isn't locked.

Look, I spend alot of time in the General forum and enjoy it quite a bit, but you've got to be kidding me to actually type that out. I think just about every day someone calls someone a communist, a fascist, a nazi, equates someones sexuality with bestiality, or calls out for genocide in the middle east. What happens in the console forum, (basically getting all worked up about how CELL is/isn't going to save the world), doesn't even hold a candle to the level of bitterness experienced and tolerated in General Discussion. But I can't remember the last time I saw a thread locked in General Discussion, (until someone today asked about the console forum being locked), when in consoles probably every other day something is locked. I remember a time when B3D talked about how they were proud to have never locked or deleted a thread, (yes, I've been coming here longer than most of you think), much less an entire forum. Sorry if I sound like I'm venting, but I personally think that consoles, for all the crap they had, didn't even touch the General Discussion.

K.I.L.E.R

29-Nov-2003, 06:45

Console do meet those criterias about interesting 3D Technology ( last I checked ) , Architecture, Hardware and Software info and discussion topics.

Do not say that aside "my game is better than yours" that there is not space for intelligent discussions on console hardware and its games ( which can and often are analyzed under a more technical perspective rarely found in other forums ).

I never said or implied any of that. :shock:

I just stated that:

Software forum is related to the sites focus.

Console forum is on very bad shape whilst the general forum isn't. -observation by events (IE: console forum being locked) and observation made by reading posts in the console forum.

I never mentioned anything about being/not being "space for intelligent discussions" in the console forum.

Clashman, if the general discussions forum really is as bad as you say it is then Dave or Reverend will lock/delete the forum as well. So far it hasn't happened so it can't be that bad.

The console forum would not have been locked if it wasn't in very bad shape.

Panajev2001a

29-Nov-2003, 07:10

Clashman, if the general discussions forum really is as bad as you say it is then Dave or Reverend will lock/delete the forum as well. So far it hasn't happened so it can't be that bad.

The console forum would not have been locked if it wasn't in very bad shape.

Seeing what Reverend and Dave think about the Console Forum in general I do not share your view... surely there were TONS of problems in that forum, but the General forum has its "fair" share of trouble and if mods are serious they will crack down on it too.

K.I.L.E.R

29-Nov-2003, 07:24

Crazyace

29-Nov-2003, 08:26

Now that the console forum has gone, it will seem natural for the various topics that people raise there to go to other forums.

Various platform technical topics and conjecture about new consoles will go
to the 3D Technology and Hardware forum, alongside all of the NV/ATI topics.

Discussions about current console ( and older consoles ) performance goes to
the 3D graphics companies and Industry forum.

Any graphics algorithm discussion goes to the 3D Architecture and Coding forum.

All of the various games related talk goes ( naturally ) to the games talk forum.

The mods will be able to police posts a lot better, as the restrictions should reduce the amount of drift in a topic.

a4164

29-Nov-2003, 08:57

Wow, I didnâ€™t see this coming. No point in arguing; the reasons are understandable. Just wanted to say I will miss the postings from the console forum regulars. I wish I could list you all, but it would probably take up a whole page. Then there was the occasional schoolinâ€™ by faf, archie, ERP, DeanoC, etc. And even through the drama, I thought the postings were pure gold. Bestâ€¦speculationâ€¦everâ€¦

I felt it was the best damn console forum on the net. And that was possible because of the community. I miss the posts already.

nondescript

29-Nov-2003, 10:47

This ban comes just in time ... I should be studying for finals anyways.

Anyways, if this is it, it's been a good time - entertaining, educational, and occasionally frustrating. Kinda like life. It was my one-stop-shop for all console stuff, because you could always count on one side to dredge all the bad news, and the other side to point out all the good news and developments. Simplified my web-surfing. Best console forum I've ever been to. Still a lot of f--boyism, but nothing like other places.

If the forum does come back to life, perhaps it there should be a split between game topics and hardware speculation. Sonic has been locking and warning, and I personally feel that the forum was starting to respond positively to his intervention. IMHO, we should have gave it a little more time.

But if, ultimately, the console forum is too much work and babysitting, then whatever.

cybamerc

29-Nov-2003, 11:13

K.I.L.E.R:

> Software is mentioned in the site's focus.

But the "3d" is implied. Not much 3d talk in the software forum.

> ... that's the difference to why the console forum is locked and general
> discussion isn't locked.

No the difference is that consoles are looked down on while general discussion is something the B3D people themselves participate in.

Again, it's their right to do with the forum as they please but let's not kid ourselves about why the console forum was shut down.

Crazyace:

> Now that the console forum has gone, it will seem natural for the
> various topics that people raise there to go to other forums.

That's how it used to be. It's also the reason why the console forum was created. The PC enthusiasts did not appreciate console discussions.

Dave Baumann

29-Nov-2003, 11:27

cybamerc you should note that the entire focus of the Beyond3D site is PC based - it is currently thus, it has always previously been thus. As I said the reason the console forum was there was because we recognised that some users would like to talk about consoles so we created it to give them somewhere to dicuss it here despite that not being the focus of the site. And this is the point of what I was gettting at earlier - some people don't seem to realise what this site is actually focused on.

You'll also note the "Software Talk" forum comes under the category "PC Forums".

Crazyace

29-Nov-2003, 11:46

Having all console stuff lumped together was probally the mistake I guess..

To quote the charter:

Our mission is still to deliver an honest view on 3D architectures, technology, software, and hardware.

This doesn't appear to limit the scope to the narrow range of graphics cards for PC.

Graphics algorithms are pretty universal ( The difference between an implementation on a GFFX or 9800 and a PS2 is often only minor ) and often you'll only see the HW stretched in the console arena ( The Xbox titles push the NV2x architecture more than the PC, as PC games always seem to chase the rainbows.. )

Perhaps if the aim is eliminate any mention of any platform apart from the
PC the charter should be reworded to make it more clear...
:?

Grall

29-Nov-2003, 11:55

Dave, I don't see the problem with extending the site's focus to encompass 3D in general (and thus also consoles), with perhaps, a center on the PC. Heck, it isn't as if we've never discussed SGI for example in the 3d tech forum now is it? ;)

Why is staying focused on the PC of such importance? The 3D market IS basically the PC anyway these days (and, curiously enough), consoles. It's not as if the site would become lost and adrift by simply dropping that PC-focus anchor.

All that's needed is keeping the console forum on a tighter leash, including giving the mods there ban-power. We can behave, most of us are pretty much grown men anyway.

*G*

ChryZ

29-Nov-2003, 12:00

I've joined the console forum, because of the great tech-talk (a year ago) and I tried to give something back, so I am myself opened many topics, most of them were news stuff. I did this with the best intentions. It sucked to watch the degrading of the forum. I know moderation is a full-time job, but just locking threads was really not enough. Banning the right people would have helped a lot more and I am not talking about the full-ban (IP, email-address, etc.), just account removal ... if you have to register for every flame post you like to drop, you'll lose interest pretty soon.

A wise person commented the situation at the console forum pretty cool: "I think it's pretty much inevitable at this stage in the console life-time though. There's nothing new fact-wise, and won't be for a little while. So all people can do is speculate a bit, and the more clued-up people will only do a certain amount of that before it becomes pointless, leaving the idiot contingent to argue every last rumour and spam/troll for attention."

The life-circle of consoles is longer than pc-3d-hardware, to remove the console forum would be shortsighted. PS3, X-Box2 and GameCube2 will be pretty close to bleeding edge pc-hardware (or even excel it) and there will be a lot of news in the next 6-12 month and everything will rain down onto the rest of the Beyond3D forums, so you'll forced to reopen a new console forum ... but all the industry-insiders will be gone and everything will become even more shitty.

Anyway ... Dave, thanks for the hosting and thereby thanks for the console forum ... it was fun

K.I.L.E.R

29-Nov-2003, 12:10

I think what people need to realise is that Dave doesn't want to have to moderate the forums.
Only little children need to be moderated. I don't think there are little children on these forums.

Imagine having to moderate a group of adults?

cybamerc

29-Nov-2003, 12:24

DaveBaumann:

> cybamerc you should note that the entire focus of the Beyond3D site is
> PC based

I understand that that is how it is in practice. I'm just saying that based on your mission as presented on the site there is no reason why it should be that way. I don't consider B3D merely a site for reviews of new hardware and I don't think that is how you intend it either. Your site revolves around 3d in all its incarnations and, like it or not, that involves consoles.

> some people don't seem to realise what this site is actually focused on

I don't think so. We're merely questioning the logic behind your reasoning as it goes against the abstract for the site.

If you want it to be only about PC technology that is your prerogative of course. I just think it would be an odd limitation considering your field of interest.

ChryZ

29-Nov-2003, 12:32

Imagine having to moderate a group of adults?
Like I suggested, remove noise-accounts, keep signal-accounts.

passerby

29-Nov-2003, 15:45

MuFu

29-Nov-2003, 15:46

There's a console forum?

MuFu.

maskrider

29-Nov-2003, 16:12

As Cracyace suggested, the different topics can move on to their related boards on the forum. From an optimistic point of view, this may be beneficial. Moderation may be easier, and everyone gets to know more about technology and game design from a wider range of platforms.

But, if the owner(s) of the forums feel that they are going to be upset about maskrider postig screen chapters of GT4 prologue :wink: on the "Games" board, I suggest, like how other posters have suggested, that the charter be re-worded to emphasize that the forums are exclusive to PCs only.

Heh ! As I said, I am not new here and I fully understand the PC nature of the site. I wouldn't post anything console related outside of the Console Talk forum. :)

BTW, I don't post for the sake of posting. I can post screens to Gaming Age forum if I wanted to (I have post the screens of VF 10th Anniversary there recently). :D

oli2

29-Nov-2003, 18:54

Dave,

This is your server, so it is your freedom to make it the way you mean ...

But !

As a creator, you have to agree that sometimes a creation tends to become something different (greater !?) from what you intended it to ...
It takes its own life.

Oh i don't mean every is perfect, but this forum is, IMO, the best console forum on the net.

I do think it deserves a place on B3D.

Hope i made myself understood.

MrWibble

29-Nov-2003, 19:12

As far as I can see the mods have been ignoring a problem they could've nipped in the bud ages ago, and are now punishing the users of the site for the consequences of their own inaction.

IMO the quality of the console tech related discussion on this site is the one thing that makes it different to dozens of other sites on the net, dedicated to PC tech. I guess if we want to turn this into just another graphics card news site, banning console discussion is the first step.

I'm intersted in PC tech as well as console, but without console topics being raised I doubt I'd bother coming here for anything.

It's the site-owners perogative to turn this site into anything they want at the end of the day, but it's the visitors to the site that make or break it - pruning away a large amount of intelligent discussion on a relevant and interesting subject, just because you can't be bothered to ignore or remove a tiny minority of idiots making noise, doesn't seem very clever.

It's your call, but I think you're shooting yourself in the foot.

Natoma

29-Nov-2003, 19:24

The 3D Forums have spammers, fanb*ys, and other undesireable ilk just as much as the console forum does. The fortunate part for the 3D Forums is that they have more than enough competant users around to "hush" the spammers, fanb*ys, and other undesireables that show up.

The console forum now is what would happen to the 3D Forum if it was Hellbinder vs Chalnoth all day every day. That is what I've seen the console forum become. Sony whores vs Microsoft whores vs Nintendo whores, and it never ever ends. It's rare that people actually speak on the technical aspects of the consoles themselves, such as Fafalada. Extremely rare. Frankly it's just the reverse in the 3D Forums, and that's why I still visit the 3D forums and don't really go into the console forums at all anymore. I would not :cry: at the console forum's demise.

Then again when you think about it, how much technical stuff can one really talk about in a console forum? In the 3D Forums, there is new technology, either hinted at or real, every 6 months. We have many talented demo makers that release in staggered fashion every few weeks, and there are myriad new scandals (don't be so high and mighty. the scandals are part of what makes it fun. :)) every week.

In the console forums, you don't really start hearing about new technologies every 3-5 years. Just the length of development time and the closed nature of the technology does not lend itself well to sustained high level discussion.

And frankly, we don't have Nintendo/MS/Sony hardware and driver devs coming to these forums to help maintain an air of professionalism and civility as we do in the 3D Forums.

Anyways, just my ten cents.

TheMightyPuck

29-Nov-2003, 19:37

Dang, I kinda liked the Console Forum. It was like watching Jerry Springer. Much fun. Oh well...

cthellis42

29-Nov-2003, 20:43

And frankly, we don't have Nintendo/MS/Sony hardware and driver devs coming to these forums to help maintain an air of professionalism and civility as we do in the 3D Forums.

Driver devs? No, I suppose not. But it actually had a number of game and hardware developers who've worked between the consoles makers and console-focused developers and bring looks inside we rarely see anywhere else.

Offhand, I think it's a mistake. If one wants to change a forum one finds different ways to combat it--different formats, new moderators from among the active and trusted users, new methods of moderation--but complete shutdown is "giving up" on a community that has built inside B3D instead of focusing it.

Every other topic on the General Discussion board tends to be just as contenious as the worst on the Console Forum, but because it's "politics" that's just what they're EXPECTED to be and no one compains, and yet a few individuals are still the ones getting their rocks off primarily in those threads than anywhere else. Certainly the other 3D boards have had their fair share of the same thing from all the ATi/nVidia hoopla--which comes in fits and starts, but still has plenty of eye-rolling comments leaking into posts from certain people in general principle. (Granted more of the "cheap shot" variety that others have just stopped bothering to respond to.) It seems much of the difference between the Console forum and what we've seen on other forums is that A) it's not as "expected" and will get people responding more often, and B) it doesn't have as many folk who have "given up" responding the way they'd prefer about the touchier subjects. And of late, I imagine a lot of off fuss simply comes about with the "return of noise" after having NOT had that particular signal-obscuring for a while and thinking that kind of action is the best one to pursue.

And then there is, of course, theis simply that it gets more posts and has a wider scope due to its nature--bringing in the kinds of posts that are usually split between 4-5+ different B3D forums at least, just so long as there is a console connection.

Locking the forum is simply "yielding to the noise" and a bad habit to start, since it is something that HAS infected other before and CAN happen in the future. All open forums have the capacity for silliness and fluctuations--cultivating them the proper way is what's important, not pulling up the roots. If the message board protocols cannot handle what one prefers to do, then one makes do with other methods--and exploring even more--until such a time as the boards can be upgraded.

Considering the number of actions that can be taken, I consider "succumbing to noise" to be a notably poor decision.

Dio

29-Nov-2003, 20:43

Then again when you think about it, how much technical stuff can one really talk about in a console forum?

In the console forums, you don't really start hearing about new technologies every 3-5 years. Just the length of development time and the closed nature of the technology does not lend itself well to sustained high level discussion.

And frankly, we don't have Nintendo/MS/Sony hardware and driver devs coming to these forums to help maintain an air of professionalism and civility as we do in the 3D Forums.
A great observation.

I don't know why on earth consoles should attract such willy-waving - I don't know why PC cards do - but the advantage with the PC cards is that there are so many more hard facts around. With the consoles that can't happen even for released hardware - so the idea mooted here that 'it's just this point in the console life-cycle' is dubious because nobody can talk about released hardware, let alone the unreleased stuff.

Not only is the amount of hard technical information available about existing consoles strictly limited, but it doesn't stop the 'my dad is bigger than yours' arguments because the information available doesn't stop people taking extreme positions for (as far as I can see) no reason other than wanting to start a fight.

Why people should choose to take pointless and extreme positions, and to make 'statements of fact' which are based on (at best) PR, about complete vapourware has always mystified me. It did in the pre-R300 days, it did in the pre-nv30 days, but even more so it does with the vehemence of the pro- and anti- PS3 zealotry.

That said, I don't think the console forum is particularly misplaced here. At the very least, splitting it into a discussion forum and an argument forum seems viable.

Sonic

29-Nov-2003, 21:32

I have to say I agree with Dave for the most part. I no longer want to post most of the time because it seems no one will read what I have to say and respond in a mature manner. Half of the threads go off topic and it just goes insane. I know me and jvd don't always do the best jobs as mods but it really is like babysitting a bunch of kids. With all the PS3 and CELL talk in there it is always the game. The place is filled with fanboys who rarely talk about the technology in the consoles, but instead talk about the graphics. There used to be a lot of techncial discussion, which I enjoyed reading. Now it feels like Gaming Age almost in the level of crap that goes on in there. Moderating that forum is no easy job, especially when certain members pm me with really childish behavior of why me or jvd edited their posts.

The only thing I could wish for with regards to the console forum is that me or jvd have the ability to ban members from the console forum specifically. There's constant trolling, constant bashing, constant off topic remarks. It's like half of the console forum posters aren't even interested in what is behind the consoles. There are at the very least 4 members that shouldn't be there at all. I wouldn't mind constantly banning these members if it meant discussion would go back to the sane level.

cthellis42

29-Nov-2003, 22:33

Quite possibly it would. ^_^ If there's one truth about noise, it's that it propagates more. If there ARE people who go consistently against the desires of the forum--who never respond to warnings or suggested attitude-altering--then there's a good chance they're causing more noise in response TO them than they actually create by themselves. And offhand, I don't think forum-specific banning is necessary in those cases, as if folk do not listen to the moderators and carry on with degrading posts, chances are they'll carry similar attitudes into other forums, which doesn't seem like a pleasing alternative regardless. Outright forum bans would still be fine--pursuing temporary "sit in the corner and think about what you've done" ones first, and perma-bans later if they can't keep from transgressing. Either people change their attitude or they're kicked (and even rowdy ones usually wander off to pursue their same habits elsewhere after being kicked a time or two, so IP bans usually aren't necessary either), but either way there will be less din and more time for a forum to settle into mellower levels since it's not perpetually being stirred up.

"Off topic" posts, however, I don't think comes from an attitude so much as activity. The more active a forum is, and the longer a post goes on, the more likely an original topic will get commented-on enough and the more tangents might appear and shift focus. This is augmented on the Console Forum a bit just by its nature, since it encapsulates ALL things console--hardware, software, speculation, games, peripherals, what have you--whereas other forums on B3D have more defined borders, which makes for less room to wander and makes topics more apt to just dry up interest, or at least go "off topic" to one fairly close to the original anyway. Off-topicness and thread-wandering is just another kind of "forum reality" on the internet. Hehe...

Ozymandis

29-Nov-2003, 22:50

Obviously B3D isn't obligated to service the console community. It's their board and they can do with it however they please. I do feel however, that the elitist attitude from the PC afficionados is unwarranted. As if the 3dfx/Nvidia/ATI/PowerVR/Matrox/whatever fans are somehow more civil. It also strikes me odd that console technology is considered irrelevant to the site. In what ways do console not fit with the site's mission profile?

It's just an odd attitude and the reasoning behind some of the reservations against the console forum is flawed. For example, what does Software Talk and General Discussion have to do with the site's focus?

Great post.

This is a total overreaction. A couple of posters should have been gone from the forum a while ago. If that had been done, things never would have gotten this bad. So in reaction to their own lack of attention, the admins of this site close the third-most-popular section of the forum? Heh. Mmmkay.

Also, the attitude of some of the PC people in this thread is digusting. More so when considering the current state of PC 3d consumer hardware and of PC gaming :?

Tahir2

29-Nov-2003, 22:53

I want to know where are people like fafalada and archi40z (sp?) going to go? ERP already left probably because he was getting attacked by simple-minded Console Forum adusers.

Fafalada et al gave the console forums a tremendous air of respectability.

If the console forum goes they will probably not post in the other forums as much if at all.

Dave Baumann

29-Nov-2003, 22:59

DeanoC

29-Nov-2003, 23:07

I can see the problem with the Console forums but I for one enjoyed it when it worked. Unfortunately a few idiots have ruined it, instead of a quiet hardware period with discussion on games and the techniques used we got imaginary console stats.

The most annoying thing for me, is that the time for actually discussing and talking about the next-gen console is almost here. Bar the few idiots we could have had a fruitful discussion on what various choices means for 3D and games in general.

On a plus side, it makes it easy for me not to break any NDA or tell any 'secrets' that are starting to appear ;-)

Tahir2

30-Nov-2003, 00:08

OK Guys. This is where those that really want to contribute (and not just push the work on to others) has their opportunity to step up to the plate....

Who wants to run a B3D affiliated site dedicated to consoles? They'll be no outlay for servers - our server has more than enough capacity and will be hosted here (with the proviso you run our ads) - and it'll be your job to run news, forums and articles if you wish.

If you really want something then you have the opportunity to work for it and make it happen here.

Dave that would be an absolutely great idea. I can contribute but I dont know what is happening in real life with me I might be moving very soon. However once I am settled I would love to be help out in some way.

I am available for the next week or so, if there is anything that needs doing I'm your man!

jvd

30-Nov-2003, 00:19

Dave it depends on what is needed. If you need someone to post news updates and keep an eye on the forums just let me know. I spend alot of time online between class and work.

epicstruggle

30-Nov-2003, 00:24

OK Guys. This is where those that really want to contribute (and not just push the work on to others) has their opportunity to step up to the plate....

Who wants to run a B3D affiliated site dedicated to consoles? They'll be no outlay for servers - our server has more than enough capacity and will be hosted here (with the proviso you run our ads) - and it'll be your job to run news, forums and articles if you wish.

If you really want something then you have the opportunity to work for it and make it happen here.
Sounds like a grand plan.

Do you need suggestions on the sites name? Maybe we could PM you suggestions, have a contest, and the winner gets something or other.

later,
epic

K.I.L.E.R

30-Nov-2003, 00:26

I'm shocked. I never imagined that Dave would make such an offer. :shock:

Creating a site would require a lot of HTML coding. If I was as good as Dave at HTML I would sure as heck make the page. Unfortunately I'm not that good at designing a page. :?

BTW: I don't like people badmouthing Chalnoth and calling him a f@nboy. Some of you really need to grow up.

Natoma

30-Nov-2003, 01:29

BTW: I don't like people badmouthing Chalnoth and calling him a f@nboy. Some of you really need to grow up.

Hey now. I put him and hellbinder in the same breath. Frankly imo they're the same person but on the opposite side of the spectrum. I can't speak for anyone else, but as far as I'm concerned, if those two were allowed to run amok, you'd have Console Forum Part Deux in the 3D Forums.

Tahir2

30-Nov-2003, 01:34

The have both mended their ways..

Natoma

30-Nov-2003, 01:47

The have both mended their ways..

That's why I said if they were allowed to run amok. Effective moderator policing and community chastising is what forces the "spammers, fanb*ys, and other undesireable ilk" into the background. The same types of people exist in the 3D Forums. It's just that there's enough signal to drown them out either by force of community and moderators or by sheer volume. That does not exist in the Console Forum, so you get people that just overrun the entire forum.

marconelly!

30-Nov-2003, 02:14

Since I doubt there will be enough volunteers to make and maintain a whole console site, I guess it's a farewell to Console forum. I will certainly miss it. Then again, I will not miss ten threads a day from that special someone, childishly badmouthing one company.

Seriously though, it would be a nice forum with just a couple of bans. Just one single ban, actually, would make things 100% better.

If the Console forum doesn't come back, I guess I might hang around 3D technology forum here, but seeing that I've pretty much lost the interest in PC industry, and the 1337 attitude PC people on this forum seem to be having towards people who like consoles, I might as well not bother.

Paul

30-Nov-2003, 02:14

Whatever, just close it Dave.

However, I have a request, no; the dying wish of the Console forum itself. It is that you archive the entire thing.

There is so much information on that console forum that the loss of all the topics would be a loss not only for all the people that contributed hours writing posts there, but it would be a loss for the internet itself.

I have backed up around 80 topics that I personally want to save, however I am asking you Dave to do whatever in your power to archive and save all the posts.

~Paul

Edit: Dave I would take your offer up and create a Console website, however me and another 1-2 people are already going to(hopefully soon) create our own website based around our favorite topic of discussion(Try and guess heh).

Best of luck.

K.I.L.E.R

30-Nov-2003, 02:36

I haven't seen a post by Chalnoth that doesn't provide any sort of proof about what he is saying. Which is more than what I can say for some people.

Chalnoth and I are on opposite sides of the spectrum when it comes down to the R3xx's filtering. Of course we never got into any flamewars. That's because we see each others opinions as just that and we respect each others opinions.

Hellbinder and DigitalWanderer(which I would put into a superclass of Hellbinder) are another issue.

Tim Murray

30-Nov-2003, 03:20

Do what was considered at NV News a month or so back. Have the Console Forum open for anyone to view and by default anyone to post in. If a person screws up, moderator can take away their posting privs for a week. If they screw up again, no more posting in the Console Forum. Sure, it takes mods, but once they take a hardline (and unpopular) stance a few times, they won't think twice about it and the forum will be well-behaved. At least in theory.

passerby

30-Nov-2003, 03:31

On a plus side, it makes it easy for me not to break any NDA or tell any 'secrets' that are starting to appear

Darn! Someone find a chatroom or new forum fast!

keegdsb

30-Nov-2003, 03:53

K.I.L.E.R

30-Nov-2003, 04:27

Even though I did not participate in the Console forum that much, I like toying around with HTML and CSS every now and then, so if I have enough free time I would love to contribute to designing a new site. :)

I just completed a 1 year course on HTML and DHTML. Which there is going to be more of for the next year unfortunately.

Why is it that I'm not as confident as you are with my HTML skills?

keegdsb

30-Nov-2003, 04:40

Phil

30-Nov-2003, 05:12

Thanks for the offer Dave. I actually pretty much agree with Marconelly's post above. Having just one forum with a few bans will do wonders, but if it's a new site it's going to be, I'd be glad to help in anyway I can to see it happen. I visit beyond3d frequently and admittedly have been one of the posters not happy by the constant degration of the forum and so I have tried to help out already. I never asked to become a mod, simply because I had too much of respect of a lot of the posters and their knowledge in console technology. After being a member for just about a year and have been lurking around for much longer than that, I think I'd be able to help out moderating or even 'higher' tasks. If I will be considered though to help out, I'd be glad to know if it's okay with the current members.

Regarding a few of the later posts in this topic. Is this new site we're talking about going to consist of more than just a forum (just because I see some talk going on about designing an actual site). I personally think a forum a lone should do it (perhaps it's own phpBB) - though if help should be needed for any design, I have extensive programming knowledge in php and have already programmed messageboards myself - though time is quite an issue as I'm quite busy working on my own website along with other webdevelopment projects. If my help should be needed though, I'll be glad to look into it and try to help where ever to make it possible for the console forum to live on.

Thanks a lot.

maskrider

30-Nov-2003, 05:36

Maintaining another site is too heavy for me, I may be able to work as a part time console gaming news contributor than one of the maintainer.

For the news part I think we can just use Nope, slash or something like that (sorry that I haven't been following the news story engines for quite some time already).

If there should be a forum, a separate PHPBB (or better ones) will definitely be a better solution as the current PHPBB (2.03) cannot do much on rights delegation. The mods will have full rights to ban/removal of a user. And users need to be authorised before they can post.

Sonic

30-Nov-2003, 06:08

Dave, I think that could work by making a seperate console section. At least this way you can separate the main parts of the forum and site and keep the quality. I would be able to help out with a site a lot in the coming months. Seems to me I will soon have a whole lot of time on my hands. I'm not that good with HTML so if it wuld be cool to have someone else do that then I'm all for it. I'm more than willing to help out if you need me. I know jvd would be glad to help also.

Would the new site have its own domain or would it be consoles.beyond3d.com or something like that? It would be nice to at least keep the console community alive (the good parts that is) and attract others with knowledge and maturity to contribute. I know that if this does happen and I can be a part of it I'll do my damndest to keep the quality from sinking to the lows it is now. Whatever the cost is, even banning members constantly I wouldn't mind.

I have more to say on this, but just getting off of work I am tired.

K.I.L.E.R

30-Nov-2003, 07:14

I guess Christmas comes early for members of Beyond3D. ;)
Dave is offering a lot here. Let's not disappoint him.

epicstruggle

30-Nov-2003, 07:53

After thinking for awhile on a separate site for the console, ive had to reconsider. I would rather the console forums stays here with more mods to police the members. Also maybe having subcatagories might help the console forum. Something like:
-console games
-consoles systems
-rumormill
-archive

Maybe having separate catagories MIGHT reduce some off the flame wars.

later,
epic

cybamerc

30-Nov-2003, 11:41

DaveBaumann:

> Who wants to run a B3D affiliated site dedicated to consoles?

I don't think another site is a good idea. You don't owe any of us any favors. If consoles are so unacceptable to you, you just don't allow them. Simple as that.

Also, if this console site is to be created in the spirit of B3D the potential for redundant content is significant. The basics of 3d are the same for consoles and PCs after all. Segmenting the site is just a bad idea. It would almost certainly also affect the console forum, that I guess we're trying to save, negatively.

And finally, there are just so many secrets in console development that making a site based around console technology would be very hard indeed. Put some NDA material on your site and you'll have lawyers contacting you in no time. Console devs don't seem as chatty as PC devs either for the same reason.

Not saying it can't be done but for it to be worthwhile you'd essentially have to create something like Gamasutra, not everyone is capable of taking on such a task. I know I'm not.

No, I would have to agree with the people arguing in favor of bans. The reason you see a lot of trolling or get PMs from ppl who whine about this and that is because you let it be like that. Remove the people causing trouble and if they reregister, you remove them again. Most ppl wouldn't lower themselves to constantly create new accounts anyway.

ChryZ

30-Nov-2003, 12:07

I am already full-time employed, so helping out to build a new site from scratch is a bit out of the question for me, even though I would love to. I would volunteer for maintenance, like moderation (together with a few other people) or updating of a news-section.

Qroach

30-Nov-2003, 15:07

A good new for the game related website would be Beyond Games, unless that's already taken, bleh. How about "Beyond Consoles"?

BenSkywalker

30-Nov-2003, 15:14

I hope that something can be arranged so the console forum will avoid its' demise one way or the other. While the rest of the B3D community may look down their noses at the console forum, the reality is that you can search all you like(trust me, I have), the console forum here is as good as it gets for the subject matter. It is the most informed forum around, and it actually has the best S/N ratio out of any forum I've found that deals with console technology. The tone of the discussion will be very different then when discussing PC hardware. On the PC front, everyone has to run the same code(or close to it) while on the console front they can't. You end up with a lot of discussion over what is an appropriate comparison and what isn't, but in the end a good deal of high quality discussions have been held there.

Unfortunately the least thought out posts seem to get the most attention and replies. There are many articulate and informed people on the forum including industry professionals and many of the discussions that have taken place there are quite worthy of the standards that B3D expects. That said, a great deal of the focus even in the worthy discussions is based on utilization of the technology, not the technology itself. This is quite a bit different then what B3D tends to focus on although I think that everyone can agree that it is still a worthy area to cover.

If the console forum here is removed, besides killing off the best of its class, you are also destroying the community that is there. The reason I stopped posting on the console forums was due to the rules that the moderators set forth, in particular no profanity. Rather then violate the rules of the community I decided to remove myself instead. If violators of the rules were quickly banned, repeatedly if the need were to arise, then the situation would improve considerably in short order. There are a lot of solid posters in the console forum that unfortunately can be easily lost in the noise generated by the few who do not wish to take part in an intelligent conversation.

As far as Dave's mention of a spin off site from B3D's main one, if that would allow the community to stay around then I think it would be well worth doing, although the focus of it would mainly revolve around games if it were to truly be a console based site(redundancy would border on absurd if you simply covered the hardware time and time again). With a small group of posters in the console forum that I can think of the site could be quite well staffed and well written(in terms of the content) and you wouldn't have to worry about any spillover image issues for the main site or constant PMs to B3D's proper staff.

B3D's current console forum has a bit of an issue in terms of the way it grew. As has been mentioned numerous times the reason it was created was to stop the posts in the PC forums. From there, its reputation spread via word of mouth, technical debates would start up on other forums and someone would quote a B3D console forum member as being an authority on the subject which attracted many of those people, and we have ended up with what it has become now. If you had a well written site to attract a more mature audience to start with, it would allow for greater signal levels and also work as a natural barrier in terms of keeping the noise out(much as it has worked in the PC forums here).

If Dave is serious in his offer I hope that a group of you will get together and put the site together and pull it off. I would like to see the community continue and there is certainly enough talent in the forums to offer compelling content and up to date news.

Paul

30-Nov-2003, 15:58

Good to see your still alive Ben..

digitalwanderer

30-Nov-2003, 17:20

After thinking for awhile on a separate site for the console, ive had to reconsider. I would rather the console forums stays here with more mods to police the members.
After reading all six pages I gotta agree with Epicstruggle; don't open an affiliated console site, just turn the console forum into a bit-o-a-police-state for a bit 'til the 'rah-rah'-ism is nipped in the bud.

Have some fun and go a little nuts and appoint about a half-dozen mods to it from different time zones. Pick some people who aren't mods so it doesn't interrupt the rest of the site and instruct 'em to stomp down on any rules abusers with an iron fist, sit back and watch the problem take care of itself.

There seems like there are more than enough willing/able/cool/dedicated people in this thread to fill the mod positions you'd need, and I think they'd all be motivated to keep the peace to keep their Console Forum open. :)

BTW- I just loved this quote of Revs!
About bloody fucking time, I say. It was great initially during the XBOX time (which was the reason it was created for, like Dave said) but there are just too much noise in there that I almost want to puke each time I force myself to visit the forum.

Panajev2001a

30-Nov-2003, 18:00

I loved this quote of Ben ( still the RISC vs CISC struggle buuuuuuuurrrrns ;) ):

, the reality is that you can search all you like(trust me, I have), the console forum here is as good as it gets for the subject matter. It is the most informed forum around, and it actually has the best S/N ratio out of any forum I've found that deals with console technology.

randycat99

30-Nov-2003, 22:10

WOW!...took me this long to figure out that no new posts are appearing in the Console forum and the possibility that it is locked at the moment. :shock:

Well, I sure would not like to see it go. I have to agree with what has been said a few times already that the B3D Console forum is the best console forum on the net at this time (even while at its worst, but that can be addressed, I assure you). It would be a shame to see it go. It may seem like a bear to handle at times, but don't ignore the blessing that the BEST DAMN CONSOLE FORUM on the net has DROPPED RIGHT INTO YOUR LAP. Run with it! Make it work for you!

I think the earlier suggestion of a "lurker only" account and a "post-enabled" account by invitation only heirachy could be useful. I hope I would still get invited, though. :oops:

EDIT: Naw, I take that back. That didn't make any sense. I mean, how can you tell if a "lurker only" isn't going to acted like an a$$munch until they actually are able to start posting things? So invitational post-enabled status won't seem to work any better than the default registration method. Maybe if you add a "provisional posting" status in the middle or something, but then that seems to be getting too complicated. Maybe if you make registration a "provisional posting" status that expires in 7 days unless you are invited for permanent status? I dunno, I guess that system could be "played" over just as well... :(

phed

30-Nov-2003, 22:18

Oh, I have a wish. I want an imageforum too, so we can post screenshots and discuss them. Kinda like those japanese train imageboards. Or is that just too much bandwidth?

However, the only reason I check console every day is because it is the sanest forum where I can expect to find news on PS3. Some times I post just out of sheer despair at the quality of the forum.

Tagrineth

01-Dec-2003, 00:19

I'll have to echo this... there's only one console-oriented forum which is more civil than the B3D one, and that's mostly because it's pretty focused and very segmented (SegaXtreme)... also doesn't have as much activity as B3D's.

Paul

01-Dec-2003, 00:33

However, the only reason I check console every day is because it is the sanest forum where I can expect to find news on PS3.

If the console forum get's taken down I'll PM you the daily news everyday. So don't you even worry.

I've got something already, it may go over your head if you haven't been REALLY following things though.. Pana would get it, PM me Pana if you want it otherwise meh.

zurich

01-Dec-2003, 01:22

After reading all 6 pages and thinking about it a bit, I think a segmented console forum would be best, ie: hardware, software, business.

I also think a seperate affiliated site wouldn't work, because console-centric websites tend to attract ruffians and kids..

IMO the police-state forum would be best. I'm working part time, have been a member for eons, have a cool head, and would love an opportunity to mod (w/ban power).

Dave: try a police state for a week or two, then offer the 'affiliate or nothing' plan.

Four bullets, just gimme four bullets :)

01-Dec-2003, 01:33

Even though I pretty much just started posting here, I've been lurking for like the past 1.5 years and would definatly miss the console forum if it was removed. And I actually find the tech behind the next-gen consoles to be alot more interesting than the next-gen of PC graphics cards heh. And just because we have heroes like Chaphack who post random drivel most of the time, it would be a shame to lose posts by Panajev, Fafalda, Paul, Vince and so on. :(

Even if it's a PC based site, I don't think it's a good idea to simply ignore the technology which the new consoles will bring. And B3D has easily been the best place to find info on the new consoles, imo.

nobie

01-Dec-2003, 03:47

I have to say that the "3d technology and hardware" forum has infinitely more intelligent discussions going on. There's very rarely a worthwhile thread in the console forum, and even those inevitably get de-railed into flame wars and locked.

DeathKnight

01-Dec-2003, 04:40

Geez! I'm down in Tennessee for the weekend and this happens.... Can't say I didn't see something like it coming though. The console board really went to hell and back numerous times. It's been ages since I participated in really heated arguments of the kind you see now in there and I've restrained myself from doing so since. I found myself having to weed through endless topics and posts that consisted of nothing but crapola. It's the Rage3D console boards all over again. I came here as well to get away from most of that and be able to read a bounty of intellectual discussions and find a wealth of information. I couldn't even do that anymore because those things were few and far between. What I find really sad is that a number of you who heavily contributed to the board's current state are acting like you're completely innocent. I'm not going to point fingers at any particular person, but you should know who you are. If you don't know maybe you shouldn't have the privelage of posting here to begin with.

It's a good idea to let the boards cool off for a while, but I have no doubt it'll return to the same state if you open it under the same conditions. Bannings DO work (permabans as well). If a poster fits the criteria you set forth for banning (yes, you can make new rules as you see fit) then ban him or her. The best way to eliminate a problem like this is to attack it at the source. The source is not the board, the threads, or the posts.. it's the posters. You eliminate the problem posters and the problem's gone. Rinse repeat. The board isn't a democracy and mods/admins shouldn't hold back at all if there are problems. Excessive warnings without bannings, excessive editing of problem posts without further action, and excessive locking of threads without further action IS holding back. No one likes to see it come to this, but it should be done.

I don't think a separate Beyond3D console site would do any good. Dave, you shouldn't feel compelled to offer such a thing either. That's far too generous considering what's happened. It'd be like if someone were driving your car, wrecked it, you only gave them a slap on the wrist, and bought that person their own car. That person's certainly not going to learn a damn thing, except that there aren't any repurcussions for such actions, and they'll get "rewarded" in a sense. The best two options I see are 1) reopen the console board in a while under a far more stricter set of rules with active mods who are willing to entirely enforce said rules, or 2) close the console board completely if the previous option can't be implemented and archive the board.

Paul

01-Dec-2003, 04:49

What I find really sad is that a number of you who heavily contributed to the board's current state are acting like you're completely innocent. I'm not going to point fingers at any particular person, but you should know who you are. If you don't know maybe you shouldn't have the privelage of posting here to begin with.

Someone could say the same thing for you, so maybe it's not a wise idea to open such a can of worms. I'm not suggesting anything, just making sure you know that someone could go buck on you at any minute.

Then again, the real troublemakers haven't even stepped foot in this topic yet.

jvd

01-Dec-2003, 05:08

I honestly think a spin off website would be best . Have 6 or 7 people run it . THey can post news on the main page and then have the forum broken down to respond to news , have diffrent forums for sony , ms , nintendo and then split those into hardware and software talk then have a general discussion forum. I think this would help lmit the noise and keep things much more orginized

Good i need a spell check on this board.

passerby

01-Dec-2003, 05:24

Will a bit long winded, apologies and bear with me.

However the console forum issue is resolved - seperate site, same forum or otherwise - there is some agreement that some form of "police state" needs to be established. I like to suggest that such a state may need to go on indefinitely if the console forum is to maintain a high quality.

The reason being that by its very nature, console rivalries can get much, much more depressing than video card manufacturer rivalries. Throw in the term called "platform-exclusives" and it gets worse. There will always be a ready supply of bitter and mental posters that may come to the forums(They have to be mental to let - of all things - games and an electronic box get to them so). The current action may shame the original culprits into fleeing these forums permanently, but as I explained earlier, there is a ready supply of new people ready to take their place(Especially when new-gen consoles are launching soon!).

I will also like to point out that some draconian modding practice may be required. Trolls have evolved to the state of being "ambiguous trolls". They are capable of "trolling ambiguously" - making inflammatory statements that create doubt for the mods. For those forum goers that have not visited the console forum, may I direct you to take a browse, and look out for posts by one particular poster that are abundantly punctuated with emoticons. These posts are quite an eye-opener, as they fit the meaning of "ambiguous trolling" with great precision. Every single console forum poster knows that these are meant to inflame and irritate, but the mods may be hesitant to act, as there is no way to prove such an intent! So take a browse and judge for yourselves, though I concede that reading such drivel is a waste of time.

And that is why I suggest draconian modding practice. Mods simply do not give "the benefit of doubt". Posters will simply need to learn how to post and make conversation in a manner that is acceptable to a certain level. This may be very unpopular, and 'nazi' and 'communist' labels may get thrown around. But I wish that the people in charge give this a thought.

DeathKnight

01-Dec-2003, 05:26

Someone could say the same thing for you
How? Did I run the board into the ground with an excessive amount of garbage posts or threads? Have I been warned on numerous ocassions to stop a certain behavior? Have I religiously "participated" in numerous threads that have been locked over the past few months? No, I haven't.

The fact that you singled out that statement to get defensive over doesn't paint a nice picture for yourself (why sweat it when you feel you don't fit the bill?). Like I said originally, I'm not pointing fingers at any one person because it's not fair. It is fair to mention the problem when I see it though.

[edit] Before you reply... I'm "sweating" it at the top of my post because you did single me out individually by saying "Someone could say the same thing for you". That's certainly not fair and I have the right to defend myself against something I know I'm not guilty of.

Saem

01-Dec-2003, 05:53

The spin-off site has some good points and some bad points. I think ultimately it's the only way to work things. This way the site admins such as Dave won't get hammered with PMs whinning about crap giong down in the Console forums. I've gotten a few PMs from people about just that and I can only imagine how frustrating it'd be for Dave -- the volume must insanely high.

The segregation would mean that kids wouldn't go whinng to the people who don't have enough time to deal with them. The disadvantage is the reduced ease of use and a greater split in the community.

Banning dial-up users is an issues, but a quick email to their ISP saying they're harassing the folks here and not respecting bans usually has their account revoked -- I've done simillar in the past to many a nuisance.

cthellis42

01-Dec-2003, 06:33

I don't currently have enough coding skills--if that would be required--but I'm certainly willing to help out in any way folks would find useful.

Offhand I don't think it would be necessary to split off to a whole different site, but I CERTAINLY think it would benefit by being split into multiple boards, and with a bit more attention paid to "poster-spanking" for those who get out of line. :wink:

Can phpBB support the creation of a sub-directory? Basically, so the Console Forum would take no more room visually on the main board than it does now, and when you click on the link it takes you to a sub-menu page which show the various console forums. That way it could be split off into however many areas people want, but not affect the flow of B3D proper.

cybamerc

01-Dec-2003, 11:14

zurich:

> I think a segmented console forum would be best, ie: hardware,
> software, business.

I would have to disagree with that. Not only is there not enough traffic on the forum to warrant any kind of segmentation but I also don't see the point. How would it solve the issues the led to the closing of the console forum?

jvd:

> THey can post news on the main page and then have the forum broken
> down to respond to news

Seriously, what would be the point? Like there aren't already a million other news sites. If the console forum can't continue under the B3D framework I say don't bother.

Dio

01-Dec-2003, 12:02

I would have to disagree with that. Not only is there not enough traffic on the forum to warrant any kind of segmentation
I would have said that the console forum was one of the highest traffic on this site. It was rare to check it and not find 10+ threads with new material in.

Dio

01-Dec-2003, 12:05

is because it is the sanest forum where I can expect to find news on PS3.
Things must be pretty bad out there.

I still haven't heard any theories as to why the pro- and anti- PS3 people take up the positions they do. Without understanding the problem, can we realistically create a solution?

K.I.L.E.R

01-Dec-2003, 12:11

I think this thread is slowly replacing the console forum. :lol:

cybamerc

01-Dec-2003, 12:12

Dio:

> I would have said that the console forum was one of the highest traffic on this site.

It may be that Console Talk had more activity than the other forums at B3D but that alone doesn't justify segmentation IMO.

mat

01-Dec-2003, 12:12

i havent red the whole thread, so if this is allready answerd, just ignore this.

If Dave closed the Console forum for Bandwith issues that i think its ok to close a Off Topic forum like this.

Id its just closed because its an "off topic forum" than i think its not really the best idea.
look for example at 3dcenter.de's Forum (http://www.forum-3dcenter.org/vbulletin/) they are a German page focused on 3D Tec like B3D, but they have Forums about TCPA/TCG & Palladium, LowNoise/Silent, Retrogaming & Emulatoren, Politics, and much more...
I personally would like to have more Forums here to choose from.

For the flames there... a ignore User function could solve those problems very easy.

maskrider

01-Dec-2003, 12:34

PHPBB doesn't have that. vBulletin have that and more and is pretty ok and relatively cheap indeed (US$160) for an unlimited single site license which includes a year of updates.

Anyway, if the site owner decided that the console talk forum could stay, I think the best way to keep it will be a separate forum, and keep an archive of the old forum for reading. A dedicated site just for consoles may be considered later on if there are enough people to sustain it.

The separate forum would be better using something like vBulletin or better, which I am sure there will be people who are more than willing to pay for the license (me included) and be a mod to police it.

london-boy

01-Dec-2003, 14:30

I think completely losing the Console Forum would be a real shame. I had stopped posting there, however the information provided by those few serious posters surely kept me going back just to read what was posted.

The console forum was bad and i admit i was part of it, not in the continuous bickering between Sony-Ms fanbois, but in the off-topic jokey kind of things, which i can't help because it's part of my personality, and some people loved it, some people didn't. Oh well i stopped for a reason.

I agree that keeping the forum open to those few serious insiders who made me come here in the first place would be a good idea. At the end of the day This forum has the biggest amount of insider/developing information than anywhere else i've seen in my life on the internet. Losing this would be a real shame.

It seems those few but very valuable Devs/insiders kept B3D forum at heart and that's why it was so full of GOOD information.

The stupidity of few should not in any way put an end to such a treasure. I have stopped posting there, and i will not post there if it were to open again (well, maybe not completely, but surely not as much as i used to), i can let my jokes go in the general forum. I understand that while many people liked me/my posts, some others did not in the least, and it starts being a problem when those people are mods (BIG oooops here).

I will always go back to the only place on the net someone can find REAL information. And especially now that next gen consoles are being revealed, it's just too much to lose. Make it open only to those few who have proved they will not get into fanboi-fights. They're not actually THAT few. If i'm too much of a drag with my jokes (i got better though :D ) and such then cool, i'll still have a place to read cool info i cannot possibly find ANYWHERE else.

Dave Glue

01-Dec-2003, 16:14

I'll have to cost my vote in for just nominating a seperate moderator for the console forum that will clamp down hard and fast, rather than a completely seperate spin-off site.

If no Beyond3D moderator wants to bother with the console forum, then naturally it's going to degrade - all popular web forums I've been on require some form of moderation, or else it's Usenet (and who wants that?). Having an "ignore user" option isn't enough, there's always going to be someone who's not familiar with the usual troublemakers and respond - you may ignore the original poster, but not the responses. Moderation, moderation, moderation.

The error to me seems opening up a forum in the first place, completely leaving it alone (mod warnings were extremely rare in the console forum as most have noticed), then simply dumping it due to the inevitable.

That being said, the console forum has always been the bastard stepchild of Beyond3d. I like it occasionally, but if it's the "best of breed" of console discussions across the Net, then that's pretty damning commentary on the state of console discussion as a whole.

Paul

01-Dec-2003, 16:24

How? Did I run the board into the ground with an excessive amount of garbage posts or threads? Have I been warned on numerous ocassions to stop a certain behavior? Have I religiously "participated" in numerous threads that have been locked over the past few months? No, I haven't.

I never said you did, infact you have nothing to do with it. Noone that has posted in this topic is at fault at all, because the problem is deeper than that.

However it's all opinion based.

Let's take an example... say Vince.

Some could say Vince is a core problem in all this, others such as myself see him as a great poster.

All opinion.

kaching

01-Dec-2003, 16:52

I had been lurking at the B3D console forum for awhile before I just recently decided to start posting. Not because I have tremendous technical information to impart about console hardware but rather because I was disappointed with how certain patterns of behavior were allowed to occur largely unchecked. Console Talk just needs some dedicated moderators and I would hope that finding a couple of people with the time to moderate (no offense to jvd and sonic as I realize that time is the biggest hurdle for them) would be easier than finding people to build, admin AND moderate a new site.

Dave Baumann, if you don't want to handle the PM traffic related to the Console Talk forum, then just establish a rule that all PMs and any other type of request related to the Console Talk forum will be ignored if sent to you or any other main B3D site admin/mod. All Console Talk issues/requests must be submitted to that forum's mods.

If people around here knew more about me and could vouch for me, I'd offer my services as a mod. I'd hate to see the Console Talk forum disappear for lack of simple moderation.

Saem

01-Dec-2003, 16:59

I'm taking next semester off -- I'm going to be working. That means much of my evenings are free and even at work I have to do um... research at Beyond3d. I'll have enough time to work with the site. Additionally, I know one of the producers at IGN and have talked to him about such a site and he's thinks it'd be fairly easy to do -- relatively speaking. He also gave me a few pointers as to how to setup the volunteer staff to keep the site running well.

Sonic

01-Dec-2003, 17:23

The problem was partly the moderating of the forum, but me and jvd really couldn't be hard. I wouldn't mind a police state that encouraged intelligent discussion in certain ways. The fact is that when you are away for a day or two, as I sometimes would visit my girlfriend's the next day I come back and check on it all hell breaks loose. There would be a few days without too many problems that would go on after editing, deleting posts and locking threads. Things would be ok for 3 days at a time then it all happens over again. I think the best option would be to allow the moderators to have banning powers that way there is a real punishment if a poster acts up. Editing/deleting posts constantly does work, but any one moderator doesn't have that much time to do it. I think that by doing the spin-off site there could be more control over what goes on, but by adding banning powers to moderators that would be a big step in getting rid of 90% of the problems.

Still, no matter what happens I am available in the future. I'll still come to Beyond3D on a daily basis and make that visit to the 3d tech forum just to read all the intelligent posts.

Dave Baumann

01-Dec-2003, 17:30

OK, a few things.

First off, there isn't the facility for giving more ban rights on this board - the only people that can control bans are forum administrators and forum admin have all kinds of access to "special secret things" here so that ain't going to be given out!

Second the forum software will not change - we've got a large history in this forum now and I doubt there are convertors from php to another (paid) forum, we've also hacked our own portal into it and it drives the news on the front page, so altering the forum software will be an issue - the only time the forum will change is when phpBB2.2 becomes available.

My idea for a second site would probably be to use a console.beyond3d.com subdomian (which would resolve to a beyond3d.com/console/ directory) and then you can have another forum in there. If you wanted that forum could also have a portal such that you can have a front page with updates and news - there are some good phpbb portals out there and I assume that Digital Wanderers Elite Bastards (http://www.elitebastards) is one. IMO would you would probably need for this is a person to manage the "site" / area, a few volenteers for news posting (if you want news) as well as one or two forum admins (that have control over the forum itself and bannings etc) as well as a number of moderators.

Sonic

01-Dec-2003, 17:59

I think that idea works out pretty well. Would the person maintaining the site have to be very good with HTML or are there utilities that can aid and help along with the process? I'm just curious as I would like to help out as much as I can.

Panajev2001a

01-Dec-2003, 18:03

As far as content ( news, editorials, Q&A, etc... ) and keep-up of the new site ( and moderation duties if the curent B3D admins agree ) I volunteer.

I have time in evenings ( and in some after-noons as I havea trusty WiFi card and there is an Access Point in the Dining hall at my college so I could check for a biut while I eat too ) of most days as I normally like to visit and read B3D console forum quite abit, even int he background when I am coding for my classes or doing other stuff.

Saem

01-Dec-2003, 18:08

Well if there is going to be a daughter site or whatever you want to call it, then I figure the first thing should be an admin or admins (I'm up for it) for it, setup the forum and let it run like that. If more things like news and maybe even articles are needed then they can be rolled out later, that'll keep the "paperwork" to a minimum in the begining and people can grow into it.

jvd

01-Dec-2003, 18:31

Dave as allways just point me to what needs to be done and I'm there to help. I don't know as much as others here but if there is anyway I can help make the site better just put me to it .

randycat99

01-Dec-2003, 18:48

First off, there isn't the facility for giving more ban rights on this board - the only people that can control bans are forum administrators and forum admin have all kinds of access to "special secret things" here so that ain't going to be given out!

Is it then correct to say that there is only one forum administrator at this time (which is you), and you do not wish to be bothered with the duty of processing a daily "ban list" (if necessary) which would be submitted by the moderators?

phed

01-Dec-2003, 18:54

Could I suggest a temporary "lockdown" on Console. Only News until the new forums are up?

And, please:
Introduce the term "Read, Comprehend, Post". If you post before you've read the WHOLE thread, shape up.

I know from other forums that banning works fine, but it is hard to set up rules that everybody agrees to even when "don't be an idiot" should be enough. Yes, that includes consolewars.

It is this thing we men have, we always reiterate what we have heard other said, instead of reading what others say. If you can't contribute, don't post.

edit: and since I don't want to look stupid afterwards, I could happily contribute since I need to leverage my writing skills you know.

edit 2: Also, I don't think the current mods are very good at "directing" people. One should be able to close thread, and not get and backlash. That's the art of modding.

gurgi

01-Dec-2003, 18:56

A little moderation goes a long way. Modding some of the more respectable, level-headed memebers (assuming they are willing) would solve many problems, and with no babysitting on the part of the admins. Especially with the threat of removing the forum completely backing up thier actions (ie no 'why was my thread locked' BS).

B3D will be a great place with or without the console forum. It's just a question of what kind of community (if at all) the participants want to have. If they want to vomit on each other, well.. there's GA for those individuals.

cybamerc

01-Dec-2003, 19:39

DaveBaumann:

> the only people that can control bans are forum administrators and
> forum admin have all kinds of access to "special secret things" here so
> that ain't going to be given out!

So why not just have the mods contact you whenever someone is up for a ban?

digitalwanderer

01-Dec-2003, 20:20

So why not just have the mods contact you whenever someone is up for a ban?
That's the way that Rage3D worked for years. No mods over there have banning powers, they have to contact an Admin and have them ban 'em for them.

Come to think of it, that's how it works at EB too...I have to ask Quinn, Zar, or Hanners to ban people when I want them banned. I think it's a limitation in our software more than a control factor, but either way it works out well. 8)

I still think an entire site for consoles is too much, it's like painting a big red "COME HERE AND BE A FLAMING IDIOT!!!" sign on the forum...you'd be totally tanking the s/n ratio.

I think if you appoint a few trusted mods and have 'em go ban happy with the trouble-makers that the forum will sort itself out and could very well be self-policing. I don't think I've ever been to your console forum, but from reading the posts in this thread I can tell it was something special/unusual in that it is a console forum with a lot of thoughtful and informed people.

Ya just gotta let it be known that you insist on good manners in the forum and if people disagree with ya give 'em the boot. You'd be amazed at how quickly that kind of behavoir can be cleaned up. Yes, you'll lose some members...but as it's already been pointed out those are the members that any site should be glad to lose. 8)

Saem

01-Dec-2003, 21:05

The problem is that I don't think Dave has time to "process" ban lists, that's a pain in the ass. Then there will be those that will whine to Dave when he -- by proxy -- bans them. I'm guessing that this is what really bothers him, since he doesn't have time to baby sit like that.

The other parts of the site they don't require as much moderation as the console forum, anyone saying otherwise is BSing because they haven't spent enough time on the rest of the site. And this is exactly why things are the way they are.

Dio

01-Dec-2003, 21:13

I can't remember a thread in 3DT+H - which is probably the heart of Beyond3D - being locked for any reason other than duplication of effort.

Even in the 'nv30 will kick R300's ass' phase.

One reason is probably because it got naturally defused because it's hard for people to make BS claims about R300 when one of the guys who draws lines on the silicon is a regular contributor :)

cybamerc

01-Dec-2003, 21:34

jvd

01-Dec-2003, 21:57

Saem:

> The problem is that I don't think Dave has time to "process" ban lists,
> that's a pain in the ass.

Oh come on. Setting up a new site is much more work. It's not like we're talking hundreds of people.

> Then there will be those that will whine to Dave when he -- by proxy --
> bans them.

I have a feeling that the whiners are a group of repeat offenders. If it's that much of a problem you tell them that whining can be a cause for a ban as well. Whining out about a ban makes it permanent. You can also make it a rule that all inquiries go through the mods.

Let's not make this a more complicated issue than it is.

You make some clear rules and you enforce them. Simple as that.

If you scroll down and back on this page and wade through the console forums you will hear many complain about how bias I am and what I bad job i was doing for locking threads that were out of hand instead of cleaning them up line by line of each post and you can see one about sonic being biased too. I just can't imagine how many pms dave gets about it and complaining about memebers . I used to get 3-4 pms daily with complaints

epicstruggle

01-Dec-2003, 22:29

Why cant another option be spliting the console forum. To look something like:

-console games
-console hardware
-rumormill
-archive

Seems like the following would be excellent advantages to the above idea.
-keeps console discussion here.
-having a separate mod for each section, mean more mods. :)
-if you dont want to hear about ps3, then you can skip the rumor part of the forum, likewise to the games section,...
-easier to keep track of the abusers. (they tend to stick to a topic they feel like they know alot about)

On a side note, how about having a "Trash can section" added to forum. This could be used to place threads that are complete trash, but are like 6/7 pages deep. Many still want to argue their points.

anyways, later
epic

gurgi

01-Dec-2003, 23:33

My question is, if the console forum is removed, what is B3D going to do when the next generation of tech speculation and discussion really starts rolling again? Do you honestly want it combined with all the other 3D conversation as it should be?.. or are you going to segregate it all over again? ;)

cybamerc

01-Dec-2003, 23:43

jvd:

I don't agree with everything you and sonic have done either. Sonic in particular locks far too many threads for my taste. But I don't think arguing about it in private serves any purpose except to spare the board.

I suggest that, if the forum is reopened, a thread is made where people can voice their complaints. If you have anything to say, you do it there and in a civil manner. You also make a post outlining the board rules, what will be tolerated and what won't. Here you can also give directions on what to do if you have a complaint. Sticky those threads and see if it helps. Since most of the users are regulars I think it will.

Might I also suggest that the users get some input on these rules.

epicstruggle:

> Why cant another option be spliting the console forum.

What would it help? Would people argue less just because there's a specific theme to the forum? I could see a point if the forum was so active that it was impossible to keep up with new topics but that is hardly the case.

randycat99

01-Dec-2003, 23:46

If you scroll down and back on this page and wade through the console forums you will hear many complain about how bias I am and what I bad job i was doing for locking threads that were out of hand instead of cleaning them up line by line of each post...

That part stands to reason. One wrong move begat another, and then you created a snowball for yourself.

...and you can see one about sonic being biased too.

Yeah, and look who posted the topic. Look how he behaved inside the topic. If it wasn't clear then who the troublemaker was, it sure was by the time that topic arose. You do no favors to the quality of Sonic's moderatorship by in any way making it sound like his and your experiences were comparable.

I just can't imagine how many pms dave gets about it and complaining about memebers . I used to get 3-4 pms daily with complaints

This should be further indication that if one cannot find reasonable satisfaction by appealing to you, it is only natural to go above you (people weren't bugging Dave just for the hell of it). Don't forget for a moment that if Dave had to handle any pm's at all, it was clearly an indication of your own efficacy to handle matters in an acceptable manner. Aside from that, it really looked like things had a chance to clear up once Sonic stepped in. There's just not too many ways about that reality.

cybamerc

02-Dec-2003, 00:09

randycat99:

> You do no favors to the quality of Sonic's moderatorship by in any way
> making it sound like his and your experiences were comparable.

Eh... as mods I'd say they're on the same level. Jvd was more active a while back (hence why there was a lot of criticism directed towards him) but lately Sonic has gone on a locking spree which has yielded its fair share of complaints.

As far as bias goes, jvd is the more active poster and as such you tend to notice him more but Sonic has certainly made no effort to hide where his sympathy lies.

The perfect mod is one who has no preferences and never comments on controversial issues but I think we can agree that people like that are hard to come by.

randycat99

02-Dec-2003, 00:15

randycat99:

> You do no favors to the quality of Sonic's moderatorship by in any way
> making it sound like his and your experiences were comparable.

Eh... as mods I'd say they're on the same level. Jvd was more active a while back (hence why there was a lot of criticism directed towards him) but lately Sonic has gone on a locking spree which has yielded its fair share of complaints.

I have no problem with them being "active". It's the quality of the actions that I am trying to distinguish between jvd and Sonic. I can only chuckle to see jvd attempt to casually put himself on the same level as Sonic as far as quality of moderatorship.

jvd

02-Dec-2003, 00:19

The thing is I never tried to hide any of my bias. I've said from the get go that I'm a huge sega fan and that I favor ati right now over nvidia and I def don't care for sony.

The point is there are some topics that were locked and I got crap for it although I wasn't the one who locked it. Its not really fun coming to a board and have to defend yourself about locking a thread when all the reasons are with u but its a sony topic and sony fans are mad. Or its a nintendo topic and you've locked to many nintendo topics so everyone complains about you being bias against nintendo. I only get hit with some of it. I can only imagine dave. He had to get hit with pms about the problems. About posts getting locked. People wanting others baned, then sonic and myself pming him about trying to ban others .

So i can only imagine how much crap that has to be along with running this site.

randycat99

02-Dec-2003, 00:24

One wrong move after another begat more problems...

I, for one, would like to know what Sonic's bias actually was? It wasn't apparent to me.

Megadrive1988

02-Dec-2003, 00:30

Since Rage3D's console forum is still open, and since two of the three nextgen consoles will be using ATI chips (and probably 1 handheld also)
why not use that forum until the console forum here is open again. :?

Sonic

02-Dec-2003, 00:39

jvd

02-Dec-2003, 00:46

I did lock many threads because it ended up being the same stuff over and over again. Threads would go off topic and it would take away from the discussion. There were a lot of threads started by Deadmeat only to pursue a flamewar between Sony fans and anti-Sony posters. Those threads got locked a lot of the time before they went bad. I'm not going to defend myself for locking a thread where I made a judgement call. Don't expect you to good man. I'm tired of defending myself too. If it wasn't for the two of us this step would have been taken alot sooner than it was.

Some on this thread posting and complaining are some of the very ones that are the reason for this forum closing . That is all I have to say on this

FiggyG

02-Dec-2003, 01:36

Welcome to Rage3D for console discussion... too much fanboy-ism, and I'm pretty sure you'll get banned quite fast. ;)

Rage is my home forum :)

3dcgi

02-Dec-2003, 02:58

I probably wouldn't visit the console forum if it was separate from the main B3D forums. Since I usually check the forums once a day it's convienient for me to click the show new posts link and scan the topics from every forum.

Maybe instead of locking a forum the mods can mark it with a worthless bickering icon so the rest of us will know not to bother reading it. That way those that seem to like bickering can continue, leaving them less time to disrupt other threads.

randycat99

02-Dec-2003, 03:18

the "worthless bickering icon"!

now that's a novel idea! :shock:

Jov

02-Dec-2003, 04:23

Dave,

Is it possible to create a feature to notify mod's of posts that people have an issue with? I am not referring to the PM.

For example on www.whirlpool.net.au -> forum -> "go to any thread" -> look at a post and above "reply to this post" is a "herring" feature to alert the mods attention to the offending post.

This way the mod doesn't have to keep an eye on the forum 24x7. Its more self governed by the community. This feature can also be applied to other forum topics as well.

As for removing "Console Talk" forum its a bit heavy handed. You might believe its not the core focus or not a focus as all of this site, and you can do without it, but the heart of this site are the people that visits. Also who's to argue with you in this regard since it is *your* site, but in reality if the site is 3D graphics focused, then anything that is pushing/relating to 3D graphics should be included. Personally, I only came here from day one was due to "Console Talk".

A side story: I was once told a story by a lecturer of mine teaching a 3D graphics subject. I don't remember the name of the story, but is about a 3D object landing in a 2D world and trying to get the 2D objects (entities of this world) to understand/comprehend him (this alien 3D entity). I other words its difficult for the 2d entities to think out side the norm or square from what they're used to.

The moral of this story is 2D objects can't (or found it very difficult to) think "Beyond 2D". The irony of this site's name is we as a community can't think beyond our own bickering, not to say try to think "Beyond3D"!

If there are trolls that starts offending threads, then those that respond only adds fuel to the fire!

My 0.5 cents

DeathKnight

02-Dec-2003, 04:59

Some people are making the ban/moderation issue more complicated than it really is. To the current mods (jvd and Sonic): who the hell cares what people have to say about you? You shouldn't, but you're taking things like that a little too much to heart. It should not interfere with doing your job here. If a select few don't agree with the actions you take that fall under the category of doing your job, TOUGH. They should deal or leave. Your actions should not need exhaustive explanations because anyone who actually knows and understands the rules (requirement to be able to post here) can figure it out for themself.

The people that know the rules and actually follow the rules don't seem to have any problems here whatsoever either. I've never seen a problem arise with the stronger posters that contribute to the console board. If much more stricter rules (police state) have to be put in place to weed out the loose baggage then I'm all for it. The whiners and complainers can do so elsewhere. A very strict police state isn't going to run off posters that can actually abide by rules (ie. it's not going to run off the better posters here). The board isn't a democracy. Some higher-ups are worrying too much about what people think. Set specific rules in place, enforce them, and be done with it. It's Dave's board and he entrusts a group of people to help him keep it under control. None of them should have any problem saying (with regards to the rules) "It's my way or the highway."

Deepak

02-Dec-2003, 05:02

Console forum is locked :roll: ....atleast I wont get big dialup bills now... :)

K.I.L.E.R

02-Dec-2003, 06:19

I contact Dave or Reverend if there is an offensive and very rude post.

Dave doesn't answer. I do believe he gets the message but he doesn't edit the post. He may send a warning.

I don't know how Dave operates, maybe Dave can tell us how he handles these things?

Keep in mind Dave is very busy and with the hundreds of e-mails a day about rude/offensive posts it may take him 100 years to respond. :lol:

In reality it isn't funny though, you'd expect adults to conduct themselves accordingly. :?
I've seen children conduct themselves better than some very few posters on these forums.

I don't believe these problems that occured in the console forum were from hundreds of childish users, most likely it's because of 1 or 2 (maybe even 5).

I do believe that Beyond3D mods/admins should really start to crack down really hard but it seems they either don't have the time or are too soft.

I don't believe that it's the latter. Just take a look at some of Reverend's posts in this thread. Very aggressive indeed. Now you know why I'm so touchy about pissing him off.

When Reverend and Dave have the time to act I believe we will see some final, serious and long awaited changes.

Rodéric

02-Dec-2003, 09:45

*- off topic -*
Deepak mind reducing your sig size ?

Removing the pic and the table would be nice.

K.I.L.E.R

02-Dec-2003, 09:56

I never knew sig images are allowed at Beyond3D. :?: :shock:

cybamerc

02-Dec-2003, 11:10

randycat99:

> It's the quality of the actions that I am trying to distinguish between jvd
> and Sonic.

Can you elaborate?

> I, for one, would like to know what Sonic's bias actually was?

Was? It is Sega/Xbox.

K.I.L.E.R:

> I contact Dave or Reverend if there is an offensive and very rude post.

Even if the post is made on the console board? And may I ask why you do it? Every time I hear about people who PM the mods I get images of little children running to a grown-up because someone made them cry :/

K.I.L.E.R

02-Dec-2003, 11:24

Cybamerc:
You can get as many images in your head as you like.

I couldn't care less, and why do you tell me your personal business which goes on inside your head? I don't know you well enough to have such discussions with you.
----------------------------------------------------------
Note to everyone else:
I don't send off hundreds of e-mails/PMs a day to Dave/Reverend. If I see something that is really out of sync, then I report it.

I leave the casual fanATIc vs nVIDIOT threads/posts alone.

Evil_Cloud

02-Dec-2003, 15:21

I would very much appreciate it when the console section were to be re-opened. Like said before, it's not because of a few immature posters that an entire section has to be shut down. Of course, I understand that the current problems are to be solved, but locking the console forum isn't going to solve anything.

Qroach

02-Dec-2003, 16:47

phed

02-Dec-2003, 16:48

hay, where is the "console.beyond3d.com" irc channel? I wanna discuss new forum rules!

london-boy

02-Dec-2003, 16:49

See, even here some people are actually silly enough to get into this "bias" bullcrap. I guess it really is a hopeless cause. oh well...

Qroach

02-Dec-2003, 17:49

Aye, it's always the same people too. Well I certianly think sonic and jvd did a great job considering what they have to put up with. I know where they are coming from, as being a mod isn't nearly as enjoyable when dealing with childish BS.

It really pissed me off to see that stupid thread by chap accusing sonic of being biased, and now some people have the balls to come in this thread and continue it. Why is it that people wonder why that forum is looked down on?

maskrider

02-Dec-2003, 18:22

randycat99

02-Dec-2003, 19:51

> I, for one, would like to know what Sonic's bias actually was?

Was? It is Sega/Xbox.

What a crock of crap. Sonic and JVD are good mods, they aren't biased and try to moderate things fairly. I honestly don't blame them for shutting that forum down, because a few of the people here just don't have the ability to appricieate anything.

Wake up there, slick! I asked that because I myself doubted he had a bias. I feel he has handled his duties with utmost professionalism and objectivity. Someone else here implied he had a bias, so I was calling them out as to exactly what sort of bias they were speaking of.

Apparently you haven't been reading carefully, as well, as you missed the part where jvd outright declared he has a bias. So your remarks above are indeed "a crock of crap", with all due respect.

cybamerc

02-Dec-2003, 20:04

Qroach:

> Sonic and JVD are good mods, they aren't biased...

An interesting comment considering that jvd admitted he is biased in this very thread. Anyone who can make excuses for Sonic after his comment in the Outrun 2 thread must have an agenda himself.

Dave Baumann

02-Dec-2003, 20:05

Yep, this thread has gone in a direction that certainly won't help the cause of the console forum. :roll:

randycat99

02-Dec-2003, 20:06

It really pissed me off to see that stupid thread by chap accusing sonic of being biased, and now some people have the balls to come in this thread and continue it.

Think about it. If Sonic's "bias" was really Xbox/Sega, then why would chap be complaining about it? I don't think it is being "continued" here. It is being clarified. The conclusions I came up with were that Sonic has no bias that we need to be concerned with, and chap is, well, he is plainly in some dreamworld. Chap's "bias topic" should be the last nail in his coffin if anybody still has a doubt that he belongs here or not.

jvd

02-Dec-2003, 21:18

Yep, this thread has gone in a direction that certainly won't help the cause of the console forum. :roll: I don't think anything short of an act of god can help the cause of the console forum.

As for my bias I have stated them as soon as I got the mod job so that everyone would know what my views were. But I never locked a thread because of my bias and anyone that isn't clouded by bias can see that none of the thread I locked were due to my bias. Same goes with sonic , dave and any of the others with mod powers in any of the forums .

randycat99

02-Dec-2003, 21:25

I don't think anything short of an act of god can help the cause of the console forum.

No, not at all. All that was needed is Sonic (and a few more like him, perhaps) and a running ban list that Dave could process.

cybamerc

02-Dec-2003, 22:00

randycat99:

> If Sonic's "bias" was really Xbox/Sega, then why would chap be
> complaining about it?

Because chap felt Sonic had a personal vendetta against him.

randycat99

02-Dec-2003, 22:17

Hey, he thinks everybody has a vendetta against him! :) What else is new?

It's all the more indication of Sonic's ability to moderate objectively, regardless of supposed/alleged Xbox/Sega biases. Sonic eliminated extraneous/inflammatory topics with great skill. It was only natural and inevitable that chap would get frustrated with that. It only means that he [Sonic] was doing his job well.

Dio

02-Dec-2003, 22:47

I once saw an intriguing news report in the US where the anchor claimed "After last week's report on Israel, we recieved x thousand complaints. About half complained we were biased pro-Israeli, the other half claimed we were biased pro-Palestinian." The conclusion was that they were probably doing a pretty reasonable job...

Qroach

02-Dec-2003, 23:01

Randycat,

Wake up there, slick! I asked that because I myself doubted he had a bias. I feel he has handled his duties with utmost professionalism and objectivity. Someone else here implied he had a bias, so I was calling them out as to exactly what sort of bias they were speaking of.

I didn't have a problem with what you asked. What I said (regarding the "crock of crap" comment) wasn't directed at you OR your comments because, obviously from what I wrote, I fully agree. I was talking to cybermerc and his usual thoughts that everyone has an agenda of some sort. I really don't understand what was unclear with that. Anyway, just relax.

qwerty2000

02-Dec-2003, 23:02

When is the console opening again????

Trawler

02-Dec-2003, 23:20

When is the console opening again????

When you use the screwdriver??? :)

I doubt we'll see the console forum open up again after the way this thread has gone. It's probably best for B3d to forget about it and move along.

If there is a need for such a console forum out there, someone should get their act together and set one up. Simple as that.

I will miss it though. In a sadistic kind of way. ;)

qwerty2000

02-Dec-2003, 23:30

ok then good bye :( if you want to see a real console forum go to this web site pcvsconsole.com they talk about cool stuff and they dont lock forums they just delete the stupid posting that the users make

phed

02-Dec-2003, 23:33

Well, this is a terrible thread. And I want to know what forums will be on the new forums. I want:

- Talking
- News!
- Console Wars (Flame wars allowed, to a degree)
- Console Graphics
- Homebrewed

And:
People posting crappy threads should be banned, or those should be closed at sight. Rules in each forum, and those should be good.

And I wanna know, who's going to point at people to make something happen?

randycat99

03-Dec-2003, 01:07

I didn't have a problem with what you asked. What I said (regarding the "crock of crap" comment) wasn't directed at you OR your comments because, obviously from what I wrote, I fully agree. I was talking to cybermerc and his usual thoughts that everyone has an agenda of some sort. I really don't understand what was unclear with that. Anyway, just relax.

OK, my bad. I saw your quoting with persons unspecified, so I thought your comment was directed to those people in general.

mark_f1man

03-Dec-2003, 07:00

I'd be rather sad to see the console forum close.

I haven't posted much at all on the current Beyond3D board but keep a regular eye on it. I did post a bit on the previous board before it was restarted and had to re-register (previous handle MT_Feeling).

I quite enjoyed some of the early discussion and trying to determine the PS2 hardware spec (before the Jap linux doco became publically available), strengths/weaknesses of the PS2 design and why Sony designed it the way they did. I would like to thank those, especially the more knowledgeable, who chose to reply and correct me where necessary.

I haven't really posted recently, for instance, on the PS3/Cell as I haven't really had the time or compunction to research it. I prefer to post with as much factual information as possible. Perhaps others should note. Having said that PS3/Cell/XBox2 etc hasn't been released so there is probably much less factual info to be had.

The above reads like a R.I.P but I hope there is someway of the thread continuing in some form.

passerby

03-Dec-2003, 09:45

This thread has ended in a way that is ironic, a bit sad, and a bit amusing - in a sadistic sense.

Time to look for a replacement. The noise was overwhelming, but the signal's quality is too good to lose.

Any ideas for a replacement? (Yes, I'm officially giving up on "petition the owner(s) to reopen the board. The contents of the previous 3 pages are unfortunately quite shameful to that cause.)

Wonder if a yahoo group will work... :oops:

Tuttle

03-Dec-2003, 12:18

I had pretty much stopped reading the Console Forum.

When I first started reading it, it was a good source of public discussion on the PS3 patent and technology. Especially Panajev2001a posts and few other's.

I think it was asking too much to have a positive console tech discussion forum on a board like this one where the vast majority of posters are just windows gamers.

wazoo

03-Dec-2003, 12:34

How much time before this thread is longer that all posts in the Console forum ??

london-boy

03-Dec-2003, 12:44

How much time before this thread is longer that all posts in the Console forum ??

This will probably be the "recycle bin" of the console forum. From now on we'll see people going "well, you locked the console forum, so i'll post my crap on here!"...

The real question is, How long before this thread gets locked? (Just like in the console forum... awwww brings memories back) :D

Anway, *Bye bye console forum, Faf, Archie, Pana and all the others...* (As i said, it's a hopeless cause so...)

(I must say, i do miss my daily dose of PS3-NextGen-talk)

Tommy

03-Dec-2003, 18:12

Quincy talking about bias.
That's actually funny.

I vote to shut it down permanently unless it can somehow be moderated in a fair way which doesn't seem possible....considering the very PC nature of this site....and hence a necessary allegiance to Microsoft even if it is a minor one.

03-Dec-2003, 18:27

Who cares if the mods are biased? As long as they are 'fair' (yes it's possible to act fairly even if you're biased). I for one wish the console forum would open up again.

Paul

03-Dec-2003, 19:44

(I must say, i do miss my daily dose of PS3-NextGen-talk)

I and a few others plan on having the last laugh.

Tagrineth

03-Dec-2003, 23:21

I vote to shut it down permanently unless it can somehow be moderated in a fair way which doesn't seem possible....considering the very PC nature of this site....and hence a necessary allegiance to Microsoft even if it is a minor one.

Um... no? Sony builds PC's, and GameCube has an ATi chip in it - and Nintendo has an alliance with ATi for the next gen. So why is an allegiance to Microsoft necessary?

phed

04-Dec-2003, 04:39

london-boy

04-Dec-2003, 09:02

Oh man. Just open the console forums now. I think it will become much better now. Especially if the moderators post a STICKY which says:

"Crappy threads will be closed at sight. This includes threads gone wrong."

And there you go. Easy to moderate. Easy to read. Easy to post.

For myself, I don't get all this moaning really. I've seen far worse examples of forums.

errrmmm u seem to be missing a point:

The mods don't want to have to do that. They're hardly ever around and therefore the threads will not be shut down "at sight" unless you mean "at sight of a mod, as in every 2 weeks".

I agree there is MUCH MUCH worse around in terms of trolling, however those sites are quite different from B3D. It's only fair if Dave wishes HIS WEBSITE to stay as "serious" as possible.

I think that in the short run we should have a few elected posting insider/rare news on next gen architectures, so the interested ones can just read that and be happy. THEN if Dave feels he wants to give it a try, we should go back to normal. Personally, until REAL info on next gen console comes up, i don't see the point of having a forum where half of the threads are locked because some kid posted his thoughts on how [put name of corp here] will fail. Or, worse, posting financial papers "proving" that company will die, without listening to people who know about Finance explaining them how things really work... :roll:

Think about Gamasutra.com. I haven't checked the forum there in a long time (it was pretty much non-existant until not too long ago), but that is one hell of a good site and it would be shameful for me if i were the owner to have children troll around and ruin something i'm trying to keep as professional as possible...

K.I.L.E.R

04-Dec-2003, 11:03

Let me start by saying that this is a private forum, it is owned by 1 person. Dave Baumann is the owner.

When you(the reader) walk into someones house do you shit all over the place? Do you pick fights with other guests? Do you insult and argue with the owner of the house over what you want or don't want?

Think of this forum as Dave's house, we are guests in his house. Dave has every right to tell us to piss off, close down forums or ban us without a reason. Of course that's not what Dave does but they are he's rights. We shouldn't come to Dave's house to piss at each other and ruin his home. We have absolutely no right to tell him how to run his home.

Visiting Beyond3D is a privilege not a right. :)