How to discuss HL2 source code?

[epicstruggle]

Ok, I didnt want to start a thread somewhere else and have it nuked/deleted/locked. So I started a thread here trying to figure if there is anyway to discuss whats inside of the hl2 source code. I have a few questions about whats in the code, but I wanted some permission before starting a thread about it. I dont want people to cut and paste code, but just talk in general.

Maybe the whole subject is a no no, since people arent techinically supposed to have it, right? Look doesnt it look like a good opportunity to talk abou the difference in mixed mode and dx9. How much shader optimizing was required for nv3x over r3x0. Things like this would be alot easier to answer now with the source out in the open.

Again I just wanted to get some feedback before even daring to go out and start a thread on it.

I hope the reply is alot more informative then: "no you cant."

later,
epic

[Rodéric]

Since none of us can legally have the code, and none of us break the law, we don't have it (although I would like to, it's EVIL), there's no way we can discuss it, since we haven't seen it...

[epicstruggle]

another game which had its source code leaked/stolen: Falcon 4.0. Here is what one /.er says about it. http://games.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=80813&cid=7116629

Falcon 4.0, a landmark achievement in consumer flight simulation technology had its full source code leaked several years ago. What happened aftewards?

Nothing for several months. People went about playing Falcon 4.0 as they did before. Then a user posted a single screenshot to the combatsim.com fora. It showed the Falcon 4.0 options menu, except with some rather peculiar options-- 3dnow! support, 32 bit textures, object texture filtering, DirectX 7 support, and some others. Falcon 4.0 did not ship with support for said features, so either it was an edited screenshot or the user had modified the source code. Then the actual executable was released. It was real, the engine enhancements worked.

Development of the leaked source code exploded shortly after that. A team known as eTeam (the executable was called eFalcon) was created to work on it, devoted to closing the numerous memory leaks, and improving the overall realism and performance of the game. The improvements were incredible, bringing a game released in 1998 to a 2001 state, competitive (or far superior, which was most people's opinions) to simulations released that year. The game's publisher ignored this for a few years.

The game's publisher then put its foot down. It said that all development of the leaked source code had to be ceased. Quickly though the community reached an agreement. It managed to convince the publisher to allow continued development of the leaked source code, as long as the publisher maintained all rights to all of the community's work and was not required to compensate the actual contributors. The result was the Falcon 4.0 Unified Team [slashdot.org], composed of most of the eTeam members (not all though, some refused to join because of the constrictive agreement) as well as many from the Realism Patch group, a non-source code team focusing mostly on realism enhancements. The F4UT has succeeded in making hundreds if not thousands of changes to Falcon 4.0, ranging from technical (graphics engine, campaign engine, AI, sound engine, etc.) to gameplay (new flyable aircraft, dogfight AI improvements, numerous miscellaneous tweaks etc.) to other content (re-done textures, models, sound effects, completely new cockpit art, etc.). The F4UT finally brought Falcon 4.0 to what its original developers intended, not only simulation of F-16 combat, but a true military aviation experience taking place in a dynamic computer simulated war.

How does this relate to Half-Life 2's source code being leaked? Well, sometimes leaked source code can lead to greater things. After the Falcon 4.0 source code happenings, the full source code, including the graphics engine, network code etc. of a few simulations (Enemy Engaged Comanche Vs. Hokum, MiG Alley, maybe some others) have been released to the public. Maybe this practice could spread to other game genres.

The genie is out of the bottle, aint no way its going back in. All Im saying is lets discuss in "hypotheticals". ;) Maybe we can learn something from it. I dont advocate stealing (ask jvd). What Im asking is there anyway we can discuss some aspects (sp?) of what valve was trying to do. This in no way (that I can see) hurts valve, but does make the community smarter.

later,
epic

[Rodéric]

I think we should wait for Beyond3D mods official words.

[epicstruggle]

I think we should wait for Beyond3D mods official words.
Exactly why I posted here first. And not out in say the coding forum or the 3d tech part. :)

later,
epic

[jvd]

I believe quake 1 or it could have been 2 . The source code was leaked for it. Nothing bad happened there.

[epicstruggle]

I believe quake 1 or it could have been 2 . The source code was leaked for it. Nothing bad happened there.
Exactly why I think there would be nothing wrong in discussing what was inside the source code. In no way am I suggesting that we somehow either profit from this or financially hurt valve. But how about talking about some of the things in there.

later,
epic

[Myrmecophagavir]

I think we ought not to discuss anything known from the leaked materials, just consequences and speculation about the act itself. For instance, was this the reason for the delay in the first place? They've obviously traced quite a lot of what happened and when, I guess they knew about it for a little while but wanted to see what happened.

[RussSchultz]

I believe quake 1 or it could have been 2 . The source code was leaked for it. Nothing bad happened there.
Quake 1 has been made GPL. (I think, or maybe it was released to the public domain)

Years after it was relevant, though.

[Hyp-X]

I believe quake 1 or it could have been 2 . The source code was leaked for it. Nothing bad happened there.
Quake 1 has been made GPL. (I think, or maybe it was released to the public domain)

Years after it was relevant, though.

Actually Q1 source was leaked not much after the game was released.
It was the source of the linux version - the leak had something to do with the guy who did the porting, but I don't remember the exact details.

[Dave Baumann]

Personally I would prefer that it weren't discussed out of respect to the developers, how are obviously under a lot of stress now (we all wondered why Gabe looked like shit in the video we saw at the 9800 XT launch). Thats a personal request though.

[Zeross]

I believe quake 1 or it could have been 2 . The source code was leaked for it. Nothing bad happened there.
Quake 1 has been made GPL. (I think, or maybe it was released to the public domain)

Years after it was relevant, though.

Actually Q1 source was leaked not much after the game was released.
It was the source of the linux version - the leak had something to do with the guy who did the porting, but I don't remember the exact details.

Yep more infos here : http://www.wired.com/news/culture/0,1284,1418,00.html

[Reverend]

I think we should wait for Beyond3D mods official words.

My stance (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=177020#177020).

[Rodéric]

I'm not sure it really matters to discuss the source code, I'm a coder, and although I would be VERY unhappy to see my code stolen (I would kick the bottom of the network admin so strongly he would reach the moon), I'm not sure I would mind seeing it discussed...

After all, if it has been stolen, there's nothing I can do about that, but I can get some interesting feedback from its disccusion...

Well just my 0.02€

[epicstruggle]

I wonder if Gabe would allow a civilized discussion of what is in the source and its implications. Hmm... might be worth looking into getting his permission first. ;)

later,
epic

[Reverend]

I'm not sure it really matters to discuss the source code, I'm a coder, and although I would be VERY unhappy to see my code stolen (I would kick the bottom of the network admin so strongly he would reach the moon), I'm not sure I would mind seeing it discussed...

After all, if it has been stolen, there's nothing I can do about that, but I can get some interesting feedback from its disccusion...

Well just my 0.02€
You are you. I am me. Valve is Valve.

I think it would be a mite presumptious to assume Valve programmers do not have confidence in what they do. I am sure they would have "discussed" their game and its codes in a proper way with folks they view as relevant.

[epicstruggle]

Rev, why not get in touch with the valve people and see if we can get permission to talk about the code. Maybe get some insight from them while at it. doesnt hurt to ask, does it?

later,
epic

[Rodéric]

You are you. I am me. Valve is Valve.

Agreed (as long as you don't pretend to be me that's fine ;) )


I think it would be a mite presumptious to assume Valve programmers do not have confidence in what they do. I am sure they would have "discussed" their game and its codes in a proper way with folks they view as relevant.

Opinions are almost always welcome, you can't get in touch with all talented people in the world. I wasn't implying they were not confident about what they coded, rather the opposite way...

Anyway discussion is closed it seems, since we are not to comment about the source code (should we have it).

[jb]

Personally I would not want to discuss it out of respect for Value. Also you may want to talk about code that is not even used in the final game. I would be upset of people hacked into my PC, Stoled the new ChaosUT files and started talking about my code before I was done with it. I feel that I may have been un-fairly critzied on code that I may have used just to test a theory, to debug, ect. Once I finalize the code and the new version of the mod is out, then sure call me out on the faults :)

my $0.02

[Rodéric]

I just like to argue, I'm fine with not discussing it.

Just add that if the game was to be released soon, the stolen code should be nearly final.