View Full Version : Is the Good Dr Pabst smoking something hallucinogenic ?
CorwinB
30-Sep-2003, 21:30
That may very well be the case... (http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/20030930/radeon_9800-07.html)
NVIDIA is doing it's best to face one PR disaster after another, of course with the strong support of ATi's marketing department, which is doing its best to show that such archaic things as scruples or morals are only for the timid and old-fashioned ones in the business.
(...)
The new situation should make NVIDIA concentrate on doing what it used to be best at - developing excellent and honest 3D-hardware. ATi might get forced to reduce its staff of marketing people who are fishing for dirty laundry and focus back on R&D engineers instead.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
30-Sep-2003, 21:39
Tom has been in Nvidia's pocket for years. I never go there, because he is totally unrealiable and not objective. IMNSHO, all you'll get from Tom is whatever Nvidia tell him to say.
Very potent stuff indeed, stone cold :? ... or, sadly, a windows to the mindset of the prime webmaster of the best tech review site
Oh brother! :roll:
;^)
My favourite part:
Today, things are somewhat more relaxed. ATi chips have become a very respectable alternative to NVIDIA's offerings. NVIDIA's former rule of the iron fist doesn't quite work out anymore. NVIDIA is doing it's best to face one PR disaster after another, of course with the strong support of ATi's marketing department, which is doing its best to show that such archaic things as scruples or morals are only for the timid and old-fashioned ones in the business. Then there's us despicable press guys of course, who love to sell dirty stories as our own findings and then get really jiggy with it. I also almost forgot the world's No. 1 philanthropist Gabe Newell, who came down from Olymp to enlighten us with the real deal about NVIDIA chips. Ah, well, thanks for so much clarity, honesty and benevolence! God bless steamy Gabe and innocent ATi, who finally taught us that NVIDIA is actually sponsoring Al Quaida. We were hardly surprised when we heard that NVIDIA's CEO Jen-Hsun Huang has been seen hiding Saddam in his back yard.
I asked Jonney Shih, Asus' CEO, at a recent lunch, if the decision to include ATi chips in the Asus 3D-card portfolio has something to do with NVIDIA's current problems. Jonney, who is famous for his modesty as well as extreme sincerity, told me that Asus would never do such a thing to its valued business partners. In fact, Asus did not start to offer ATi-solutions when NVIDIA was at its worst after the somewhat unsuccessful NV30 launch. However, now that NVIDIA has come back, he and his GRX VP H.C. Hung decided that the time is right.
THe's over, I think. Once and for ever...
silhouette
30-Sep-2003, 22:30
Well I do not think the review is that bad.. They refuse to use the new detonator and grayed the results with the det 4x.xx when the IQ is not what it should be... Maybe a deal with ATI to get a review board?
Btw, the review at Tech report is much worse.. First they bash NV in the introduction, then use det 5x.xx in all benchmarks without a word on IQ..
I guess we are pretty lucky to have Beyond3d.. :D
nggalai
30-Sep-2003, 22:32
LOL
Thanks. That link made me laugh. :D
OK, back to my fever medication . . .
93,
-Sascha.rb
ZoinKs!
30-Sep-2003, 22:32
The review itself is decent enough... but some parts of that commentary got me scratching my head.
John Reynolds
30-Sep-2003, 23:17
ATi might get forced to reduce its staff of marketing people who are fishing for dirty laundry and focus back on R&D engineers instead.
If only Nvidia weren't a source of so much dirty laundry this year. Amazing how Pabst remained dead quiet when Nvidia were marketing their Quack progie to the major hardware sites a few years ago. Regardless of obvious double standards, such comments like that are just flat-out unprofessional, IMO.
Doomtrooper
30-Sep-2003, 23:31
Yes he rakes a game developer 'over the coals' for speaking out, for telling the truth. As if we already didn't have the evidence the FX simply sucks at true DX9 precision and HDR.
Tom Pabst is a idiot, go play with your advertising dollars.
Tokelil
30-Sep-2003, 23:42
NVIDIA is doing it's best to face one PR disaster after another, of course with the strong support of ATi's marketing department, which is doing its best to show that such archaic things as scruples or morals are only for the timid and old-fashioned ones in the business.
What is he talking about? The PR slides? The HL2 presentation? :?
....pulled this material from THG...
I asked Jonney Shih, Asus' CEO, at a recent lunch, if the decision to include ATi chips in the Asus 3D-card portfolio has something to do with NVIDIA's current problems. Jonney, who is famous for his modesty as well as extreme sincerity, told me that Asus would never do such a thing to its valued business partners. In fact, Asus did not start to offer ATi-solutions when NVIDIA was at its worst after the somewhat unsuccessful NV30 launch. However, now that NVIDIA has come back, he and his GRX VP H.C. Hung decided that the time is right.
THe's over, I think. Once and for ever...
What an idiot...wow....Yea, I guess the good "Dr." Pabst has proof that it was the ATi employee indoctrination pages published on the web which tipped them over at Asus and brainwashed them into selling ATI-based 3d cards....Oh, yea...:D
I like that..."Jonney, who is famous for his modesty and extreme sincerity..." Famous? Never heard of him...:)
You know, it's touching how Asus was so conerned about the welfare of nVidia that they waited until nVidia "came back" before dumping them and going to ATi....touching, really. Sniff---hand me a hanky, T2K....
Where did nVidia go, I wonder? I wasn't aware they'd gone anywhere at all, let alone come back. Wow...What a truckload...:) It never fails--just when I think I've seen it all....some idiot like Pabst amazes me with his sheer stupidity...:) Does he really imagine anyone at all might believe this tripe? And if so, what *good* does it do anybody? Makes Asus look like numbskulls and nVidia look like a poor lost sheep who's just found its way. To get inside Pabst's head would really be a trip, I'll wager...
cellarboy
01-Oct-2003, 00:32
Dunno what Tom is smoking, but I'd really appreciate it if he'd send some my way.
If he'd like to point the finger towards a company promoting dirty or dubious tactics, then he should look no further then NV. From 'leaking' those Exluna renders this time last year and trying to pass them off as NV30 renders to their Image reduction tactics, 'review' drivers' and barely-shipping products, NV are at the top of the heap in that regard.
At least ATI have the products to back-up their action.
digitalwanderer
01-Oct-2003, 00:38
To get inside Pabst's head would really be a trip, I'll wager...
I'm sorry to say they stopped the tours, the ego-expansion project took up a lot more space than they thought in there... ;)
Entropy
01-Oct-2003, 01:09
I think that the readers of TomsHardware are lucky that Lars is the one doing the actual reviewing.
keegdsb
01-Oct-2003, 01:15
I guess he really must have been bought off, I remember a while ago when Tom (hiimself) used to write some pretty good articles. Oh well, times change...
tazdevl
01-Oct-2003, 01:21
To get inside Pabst's head would really be a trip, I'll wager...
I'm sorry to say they stopped the tours, the ego-expansion project took up a lot more space than they thought in there... ;)
ROFL @ digi.
Tom's and Anand are both cut of the same cloth these days. Interesting how Anand doesn't have his review up.
Isn't that slandor or i guess libal (sp?) He is basicly saying ati is spreading dirt. He didn't post any proof so wouldn't that be slander ?
Tom must get his internet connection filtered through nVidia first, that's all I can figure.
keegdsb
01-Oct-2003, 02:32
Isn't that slandor or i guess libal (sp?) He is basicly saying ati is spreading dirt. He didn't post any proof so wouldn't that be slander ?
AFAIK, slander is spoken and libel is in print.
Isn't that slandor or i guess libal (sp?) He is basicly saying ati is spreading dirt. He didn't post any proof so wouldn't that be slander ?
AFAIK, slander is spoken and libel is in print. yea i learned that from spiderman :-) na just playing i learned that in 8th grade. Wasn't sure of the spelling so i put slander too so that if i spelt it really bad yuo guys would know what I'm talking about . I'm a very bad speller.
I think that the readers of TomsHardware are lucky that Lars is the one doing the actual reviewing.
I actually thought TomsHardware went downhill when he stopped doing the graphics reviews. Recent ones have been better although I don't read them as much anymore.
THe_KELRaTH
01-Oct-2003, 05:30
I thought the TH review wasn't too bad and Papst comments were in preparation for next April 1.
What did suprise me was the Techreport review using 51.75 drivers because Nvidia convinced them in probably a 5 minute chat, (and a few sweeties), that the drivers were A1.
K.I.L.E.R
01-Oct-2003, 05:35
Isn't that slandor or i guess libal (sp?) He is basicly saying ati is spreading dirt. He didn't post any proof so wouldn't that be slander ?
Somehow I don't see a lawsuit coming out of this. :D
CorwinB
01-Oct-2003, 08:15
I think that the readers of TomsHardware are lucky that Lars is the one doing the actual reviewing.
I'll second that. I was pleased to see the Aquamark article, and I think Omid also makes some solid articles. I was starting to read THG on a semi-regular basis again, but comments like the good Dr.'s are really bringing THG to Inquirer-level, IMHO.
cthellis42
01-Oct-2003, 08:49
The review itself is decent enough... but some parts of that commentary got me scratching my head.
So true! I was actually reading the XT review and expecting more tweaks or certain mentions, and certain other LACK of mentions, but it was very respectable. But THIS thing...! :shock:
Meanwhile, I'm wondering what he EXPECTED Asus' CEO to say? "We're making ATi cards now because the FX is a sub-par solution" and cripple the sales of the thousands cards they already have floating about? Er... yeah. I'm sure Asus did a lot of number crunching and decided the best course for themselves, and I'm pretty sure things like "being polite" would not have stood in their way, nor would the ignore consumer confidence and performance issues.
It's good that everyone Tom likes is so NOBLE, and ATi is so DESPICABLE right now, and let's conveniently never bring up a single instance of the crap we've gotten from a particular IHV and the marketing silliness they've had going on for the past year. In context, this is such laughable tripe.
What the hell IS he complaining about? This (http://www.ati.com/companyinfo/press/2003/4691.html)? THAT is evil marketing?! Heck, I've been wondering where ATi's marketers WERE until lately.
...ugh, my head hurts. -_- I think I'll just finish with my overall reply towards this "commentary"
:roll: x 10^1000
jimbob0i0
01-Oct-2003, 10:37
Heck, I've been wondering where ATi's marketers WERE until lately.
Heh it must be great in ATi markting at the moment..... can focus on GOOD things like showing how standard APIs benefit the world - go see the game devs as opposed to 'educating' the consumers.. hehe
Vortigern_red
01-Oct-2003, 11:39
I think Tom has stepped up to replace Kyle as the NV mouthpiece, but its really strange to do it now given the fact that the site has actually taken a stance on NV cheating!
Also I think the techreport review was pretty good really. They included the det 50.xx but made it quite clear that they were unreliable at the start of the review. They even went as far as to comment on shadermark and the HDR demo that NV had yet to *optomise* for these benchmarks debunking NV claims of general shader improvements.
It could have been done better but anyone who comes away from reading that review thinking the NV card and 50.xx drivers are doing everything above board just looked at the pictures and did not read the comments!
Well, I hardly think saying "these drivers are unreliable" then proceeding to use said drivers is a great step for mankind.
Vortigern_red
01-Oct-2003, 14:13
I think the point was to show they were unreliable, rather than us just take his word.
digitalwanderer
01-Oct-2003, 14:34
I think the point was to show they were unreliable, rather than us just take his word.
Also to show the huge application specific performance gains and to be able to comment on the massive loss of IQ. ;)
Sabastian
01-Oct-2003, 21:16
I read that article and just shake my head. Tom seems to be suggesting that Asus humbled ATi somehow into allowing for some kind of a deal that allows Asus to sell both ATi and Nvidia cards. Ironically it was most likely Asus that approached ATi seeing their sales numbers of GeforceFX cards are so reduced. ATi would gain market share with or without Asus but with Asus it will be that much faster. Over two years ago ATi started to attract third party vendors and this sort of deal was more then likely always their major objective. Sure it will increase competition for both companies. But as it was before Nvidia had a virtual monopoly on third party card makers and the largest of them were gigabyte, Asus and MSI. MSI is the next company to take ATi cards onboard they cannot afford to let Asus garner market share because they are tied at the hip with Nvidia and the GeforceFX. Asus did not take ATi on to create competition, they did it to have a positive effect on their bottom line. ATi will not sell their chips for any less to Asus when they can sell them to Asus competitors for more. Nvidia on the other hand is in a rather poor position however.
Anyhow Tom has always favored nvidia. The remarks in that review are more then a little telling. What a dirty rotten under handed commentary.
Joe DeFuria
01-Oct-2003, 21:25
The review itself was decent enough. While I don't like benchmarks done with unreleased drivers, at Lars made it clear that they were beta, and did the "gray out" thing in teh benchmark graphs, and included scores from drivers that are actually supported.
That's better than many of the sites *cough, Anand* that just took the latest dets and ran with them.
That Tom Pabst editorial in the middle of it just left me scratching my head over and over....what planet is he on?
Sabastian
01-Oct-2003, 21:38
The review itself was decent enough. While I don't like benchmarks done with unreleased drivers, at Lars made it clear that they were beta, and did the "gray out" thing in teh benchmark graphs, and included scores from drivers that are actually supported.
That's better than many of the sites *cough, Anand* that just took the latest dets and ran with them.
That Tom Pabst editorial in the middle of it just left me scratching my head over and over....what planet is he on?
Yeah the review was actually well done and actually comes off as an endorsement of the Radeon 9800XT. That must have been too much for Tom. It reads to me like sour grapes.
CorwinB
01-Oct-2003, 21:56
BTW, I read it again, and I don't think it has anything to do with Nvidia paying Tom or something like that. I really think, OTOH, it has everything to do with explaining why THG was so late to comment on Nvidia's marketing and butcheatoptimizations. It goes well with the "we don't take side because all IHVs are equally guilty" article that was run at the time of the 3DM03 debacle.
StealthHawk
02-Oct-2003, 01:36
I think Tom has stepped up to replace Kyle as the NV mouthpiece, but its really strange to do it now given the fact that the site has actually taken a stance on NV cheating!
If anyone is NVIDIA's mouthpiece it's Anand.
What did suprise me was the Techreport review using 51.75 drivers because Nvidia convinced them in probably a 5 minute chat, (and a few sweeties), that the drivers were A1.You didn't actually read the whole review, did you? Scott made his concerns quite clear. (http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2003q3/radeon-9800xt/index.x?pg=2)
You didn't actually read the whole review, did you? Scott made his concerns quite clear. (http://www.techreport.com/reviews/2003q3/radeon-9800xt/index.x?pg=2)
Making his concerns clear does change very much. He still used the Det51.75 in the benchmarks and that is what really counts in the end.
cthellis42
02-Oct-2003, 19:34
There are reasons to want to use them, and stating concerns like this IS fine, as long as people aren't skipping every word in an article and going straight to looking at graphs. (Of course they're foolish people in general.)
I'd rather he have included non-50 benches in there as well. It's fine to have reasons for looking at one, but give the "reference model" as it were.
Joe DeFuria
02-Oct-2003, 20:10
I'd rather he have included non-50 benches in there as well. It's fine to have reasons for looking at one, but give the "reference model" as it were.
Agreed.
While I disapprove of using non public drivers at all....at the very least, benchmarks using currently available and supported drivers should be used as the basis of the review.
If they are going to be used at all....non public drivers should be treated more or less like overclocking in reviews...given for informational purposes, with the caveat of "until these are official and public...your milage may vary."
There's nothing wrong with using the beta drivers so long as the official drivers are used as a reference. To lambast drivers, then only use the driver you just knocked... well...
Up to 2 years ago I really liked reading THG's articles. But then I detected two things - bias and lack of expertise. The bias was very obivous in the magnitude and relative delay of his comments depending on who was doing what. The lack of competence became clear after starting to regularly visit here and extreme tech and the tech report.
Once you see how good 3d analysis can get - the obivous lack of really detailed knowledge in matters 3d became very apparent in THG.
I couldn't take Tom's seriously when every article had close-up shots of the product logo, and comments like "Look at the quality [supplier name] build."
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