View Full Version : ATi officially responds to the slides & my thoughts.
digitalwanderer
26-Sep-2003, 00:09
There's a new story up on www.elitebastards.com that I think some of you may want to read....I got an official response from ATi and I share my thoughts on how my morning went.
Sorry, I do not mean this as a site pimp...but I posted up about the leaked slides here and I thought it only fair to also post up ATi's response in the same way.
bloodbob
26-Sep-2003, 01:17
digitalwanderer since these slides are already exposed to the public and that and that Patti Mikula says that only displaying selected slides shows a slanted view could you please ask Patti to forward the entire presentation to your site so it can be publicly displayed as this could only bring ATI into a better light. And as stated before the slides are already leaked so there is no reason for ati to withhold marketing stratergies.
fallguy
26-Sep-2003, 01:25
Just to help you, since you dont mean to pimp your site. Copy/paste from rage3d who did the same over there.
I recently got hold of some ATI marketing slides. I can tell you, I am all for uncovering how we all might be used or abused. I find this very important. However, I have just come to the conclusion that I myself have been used and abused. I don't have to state the name of a specific person or company, but only tell you that things are probably worse than they seem for nVidia. The chance that things are so bad that something such as this are procured and leaked goes to show how much faith we should have in such a company right now.
I will not point fingers, but I will say that nobody should know business better than nVidia and that is what disturbs me about these slides being leaked. I doubt you will see many moves like this from ATI due to their comfortable position. The simple fact that these slides were leaked shows a lot of nothing until something can be made out of them. We would rather not instigate, but investigate and speculate.
I'd like to share some of my thoughts on the events surrounding it and the weirdness that was/is my morning.
I've been poking around a lot and have firmly concluded to my satisfaction that those slides were leaked to me from a certain person from a certain company that is in direct competition with ATi and was leaked specifically for the purpose of trying to discredit ATi's reputation.
Note I said "trying" as I do NOT think this in anyway implicates ATi in any wrong-doing. All the slide says to me is that ATi is getting a bit more aggressive in their marketing, which I think they really should do since they have a very strong product and I think they should push it harder.
I'm very angry and disapointed in myself for the way I went about putting those up, I really should have made more of an effort to contact ATi before I put them up. Not to see if they would "allow" it or not, but to give them a heads up that it was coming and to see if they were indeed genuine or not. In that I do feel I made an error by rushing it out, and for that I truly am sorry and apologize to all those I offended by it. My initial disapointment with the "Influence benchmarks in ATi's favor" has been corrected by a number of people on a number of forums as they've pointed out to me that is a very valid and legitimate concern for a PR department. It does NOT mean nor imply that ATi plans to 'cheat' or optimize for any benchmarks, it merely means that ATi should try and get the benchmarks to show their hardware in the best possible light; ie, try and get dx9 benchmarks to push PS 2.0 since ATi's hardware runs it very well while nVidia's can't, try and get benchmarks to avoid the dreaded "PP hint" that allows nVidia's hardware to run in FP16 rather than dx9's specified 24FP, etc.
I was wrong, and for that I humbly apologize.
Well, that verifies the slides' authenticity at least 8)
silly boy, never take candy from an nVidia PR rep.
3dilettante
26-Sep-2003, 03:38
I still think it was a poor choice of words in the slide leaked, regardless of context and the fact that it was an internal slide.
It would have been better if they had just said: encourage developers to utilize ATI hardware fully.
It would have been good merely for appearance's sake, just like they probably didn't have the guy presenting the slides wear a black hat and twirl his wiry mustache as he cackled evily. It's just not a bright thing to do.
At least the slide didn't say something like optimize for software *wink-wink*.
Interesting turn of events. Lets just wait and see what comes out of it.
hm.. my advise is that you should talk to some card manufacturers (after two or three beers) and let them talk about sale policies from the GPU makers - regardless if it´s NV or ATI. There´s no good and bad when it comes to sales. Or ask Mobo manufacturers about Intel/VIA/SIS/AMD.... it´s all the same kind of gags.
Since this slide looks very much like a sales document, there´s nothing really surprising in there.
Lars
CorwinB
26-Sep-2003, 07:56
Tempest in a tea-pot, anyone ? :)
One spoonful of hindsight and just a bit of moderation in mine, please. ;)
digi,
I just hope you learn to be more careful next time. Not that you did anything "wrong" here. Just that some times its better to "Look before you leap" :)
digitalwanderer
26-Sep-2003, 14:59
digi,
I just hope you learn to be more careful next time. Not that you did anything "wrong" here. Just that some times its better to "Look before you leap" :)
Meh, life is short so I tend to take big bites of everything. I hope I learned something too, but I hope for lots of improvements in myself. :roll:
I will try harder in the future for verification and not jumping the gun though, I just can't promise I'll pull it off because I know myself pretty well. (Damn it, I'm an enthusiast....I tend to be enthusiastic and passionate over these things rather than coldly analytical; but I'll try and get a healthier balance. ;) )
Look before you rant?
Nothing wrong with publishing them, just be careful what conclusions you draw. Oh, and ask these parties for comment. Wonder if nVidia would have commented on the slide? :)
Dig, since it seems that you were used by this rep. would you care to name the little brid.
digitalwanderer
26-Sep-2003, 15:37
Wonder if nVidia would have commented on the slide? :)
Uhm, they did. I received an e-mail yesterday morning from an nVidia employee direct from nVidia with a third slide and about a page and a half dissertation about how ATi was an evil, monopolistic company out to discredit poor nVidia and how the most righteous nVidia interpretted the slide.
Quite amusing, I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the person who sent it to me was thinking. :lol:
digitalwanderer
26-Sep-2003, 15:39
Dig, since it seems that you were used by this rep. would you care to name the little brid.
Not at the present time, no. Someone screwed up and probably saved my ass by giving me the hard evidence I needed to prove the slides were from nVidia, I'm keeping it as me anti-nVidia legal team card for protection for now. (I also don't want to get someone fired who inadvertantly helped me out...but I have a feeling there is a VERY nervous individual at nVidia right now! ;) )
Chris123234
26-Sep-2003, 15:49
My thought on the slides is that they worded that point to draw people into it and be suspicious about it. And when everyones focused on that point they go to the next slide which then explains what that point meant.
Its just an attention grabber thats all.
Wonder if nVidia would have commented on the slide? :)Quite amusing, I'm still trying to figure out what the hell the person who sent it to me was thinking. :lol:
:? :?:
It's questionable how evil those quotes are in the full context, so I'm reluctant about only leaking one slide, but eh...
Uttar
tazdevl
27-Sep-2003, 06:01
I still think it was a poor choice of words in the slide leaked, regardless of context and the fact that it was an internal slide.
It would have been better if they had just said: encourage developers to utilize ATI hardware fully.
It would have been good merely for appearance's sake, just like they probably didn't have the guy presenting the slides wear a black hat and twirl his wiry mustache as he cackled evily. It's just not a bright thing to do.
At least the slide didn't say something like optimize for software *wink-wink*.
This was a presentation so there was some verbal discussion going on as well which probably qualified the points a bit better.
Everything in written form has the potential to be taken out of context due to frame of reference, insight, ignorance, whatever... which is exactly what happened here. I'd bet it's happened to all of us in email or chat, so this shouldn't be a surprise.
I highly doubt ATI would put something that damning up for public consumption, meaning outside of the company.
Not at the present time, no.
But you already said it! :lol:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=202269&#post202269
RussSchultz
27-Sep-2003, 13:36
I highly doubt ATI would put something that damning up for public consumption, meaning outside of the company.
But NVIDIA did (with their Kyro sales/marketting slides). Or should we assume that ATI didn't do this because they're a morally superior company because they don't do this? (I.e. depend on a circular argument to "disprove" that such things might happen)
Certainly it shouldn't be a shock that marketing departments have a goal to make their products look better and their competitors look worse.
Wonder if nVidia would have commented on the slide? :)
Uhm, they did. I received an e-mail yesterday morning from an nVidia employee direct from nVidia with a third slide and about a page and a half dissertation about how ATi was an evil, monopolistic company out to discredit poor nVidia and how the most righteous nVidia interpretted the slide.
In the interests of fairness, shouldn't you have published that as well as the ATi response? Even if you believe it's all false, it seems a little "off" to only present one side of the story here. I, and probably others, would be interested in seeing what they had to say.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
27-Sep-2003, 16:54
I highly doubt ATI would put something that damning up for public consumption, meaning outside of the company.
But NVIDIA did (with their Kyro sales/marketting slides). Or should we assume that ATI didn't do this because they're a morally superior company because they don't do this? (I.e. depend on a circular argument to "disprove" that such things might happen)
Certainly it shouldn't be a shock that marketing departments have a goal to make their products look better and their competitors look worse.
It is well known that such "negative marketing" can have bad effects. It's been well shown that if a political campaign slates the opponent, the mud also sticks to those that do the throwing.
It's quite possible that ATI have made a decision not to do negative marketing. It's often the case that if you are on top, you don't need to slate your opponent, because you can just point out your own advantages without having to denegrate your competition.
Nvidia have from day one shown that they consider negative marketing to be acceptable, and have proved once again that if you stoop to slinging mud against your opponents, it will also stick to you and you'll end up covered in crap yourself.
This recent escapade makes Nvidia look terrible. Can you image what it will look like if DW publishes the nonsensical rant from the Nvidia PR that mailed him after the fact? It will make Nvidia look like poor disgruntled losers who have completely lost the plot.
Except you dont know who mailed DW, it might be just some random guy...I mean there is no reason to attribute it to a larger group, whereas presentations are usually given for people to see and you get the idea.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
27-Sep-2003, 17:48
Except you dont know who mailed DW, it might be just some random guy...I mean there is no reason to attribute it to a larger group, whereas presentations are usually given for people to see and you get the idea.
DW's already said the original ATI out-of-context slide leak came from Brian Burke, and the followup came from another Nvidia PR employee he won't name.
[He's said in in the forums referenced in this thread over at EB and NVnews]
But NVIDIA did (with their Kyro sales/marketting slides). Or should we assume that ATI didn't do this because they're a morally superior company because they don't do this? (I.e. depend on a circular argument to "disprove" that such things might happen)
Certainly it shouldn't be a shock that marketing departments have a goal to make their products look better and their competitors look worse.
I don't recall nVidia doing any public marketing of those slides. I do recall a .pdf which was leaked, in its entirety, to the general public. I thought the .pdf was addressing nVidia's OEM customers as to why they shouldn't look at Kyro, but to nVidia, instead. It had some fairly faulty info in it, too, as I recall.
These were ATi slides from presentations given with speakers who elaborated on the bullet points in the slides. Not only did we not see all of the slides in the presentation, we didn't see any of the text from the talks that the ATi speakers made in conjunction with the presentation of those slides. The Kyro .pdf, however, was a complete document designed--not for a slide presentation with a speaker--but to be read on its own, and judged on its own words.
The major difference here, I think, was that because the ATi info was released in a very incomplete state certain *bullet points* were taken out of context, whereas with the Kyro .pdf there was nothing to take out of context as the document was complete.
I certainly agree with you though that nobody should be surprised to learn that ATi considers nVidia a competitor...:)
RussSchultz
28-Sep-2003, 00:43
Those are some pretty silly distinctions, Walt.
I mean, if you want to say "But NVIDIA lied in theirs, so they're much worse" that's competely understandable.
But to say one was a PDF that had all the slides so therefor it was a complete picture and the ATI one was only a few slides wasn't so we can't draw conclusions....
*boggle*
3dilettante
28-Sep-2003, 01:01
Isn't it interesting that a guy from Nvidia procured internal ATI slides? Perhaps ATI leaks like a seive, but one would think they would put a little effort into keeping Nvidia from getting their marketing strategies.
It kind of asks for an exciting conspiracy novel based on the behind the scenes maneuvering of hardware companies.
Lurking in the Stenciled Shadows: An Unfiltered Rendering of Graphics Espionage
:wink:
In the interests of fairness, shouldn't you have published that as well as the ATi response? Even if you believe it's all false, it seems a little "off" to only present one side of the story here. I, and probably others, would be interested in seeing what they had to say.Sure, I'd be interested in what that nV employee had to say to dw, but it was a private correspondence (unless the employee said her/his mail was fit to be published, which I doubt is the case if s/he wants to continue enjoying gainful employment). ATi's reply was PR, meant for public dissemination. There's a clear distinction, at least as far as I can infer.
As for only presenting one side of the story, I believe whoever specifically leaked that first slide thought the side it presented was self-evident ("Influence benchmarks in ATi's favor," as a clear counterpart to nV's cries of PS1.4 not being in their favor). ATi's PR was the other side, IMO. Going from the position that nV didn't release the slides themselves, as they did not do so publicly, I can only consider an nV employee's opinion as a spectator's side, not necessarily the appropriate "other," or opposite, side.
*yahtzee*
digitalwanderer
28-Sep-2003, 02:00
Wonder if nVidia would have commented on the slide? :)
Uhm, they did. I received an e-mail yesterday morning from an nVidia employee direct from nVidia with a third slide and about a page and a half dissertation about how ATi was an evil, monopolistic company out to discredit poor nVidia and how the most righteous nVidia interpretted the slide.
In the interests of fairness, shouldn't you have published that as well as the ATi response? Even if you believe it's all false, it seems a little "off" to only present one side of the story here. I, and probably others, would be interested in seeing what they had to say.
Mebbe it would, but I received a follow-up e-mail from them asking me not to publish their e-mail and not identify them and I decided to respect their request.
I did contact Brian Burke yesterday though and asked him if he or nVidia had any comments they'd like to add about it since I hadn't asked before and it seemed only fair and right, but he politely declined. :)
Ah, right. I didn't realise they'd specifically asked you not to publish the information. Thanks for clearing it up :)
digitalwanderer
28-Sep-2003, 03:00
Ah, right. I didn't realise they'd specifically asked you not to publish the information. Thanks for clearing it up :)
No problem. I figure the person was pretty straight up with me and identifying 'em could cost them their job and they did ask me nicely. :)
Those are some pretty silly distinctions, Walt.
I mean, if you want to say "But NVIDIA lied in theirs, so they're much worse" that's competely understandable.
But to say one was a PDF that had all the slides so therefor it was a complete picture and the ATI one was only a few slides wasn't so we can't draw conclusions....
*boggle*
Russ...the difference is one of context. With the nVidia .pdf we had all of the text--not just part of it--so there was no room for misinterpretation. With these slides we had about 10% of the text (we didn't have the other slides that accompied it in the presentation, nor did we have the text of the speaker's remarks which accompanied the slides during the presentation.) Therefore, the probablity of misinterpretation goes through the roof. It's not a difficult distinction at all, IMO. You can draw conclusions about the Kyro .pdf because you had the complete text--the selectively published ATi slides were such a small part of the complete presentation that no conclusion is possible.
Besides, if you're saying that nVidia lied in its presentation but ATi did not, why did you think to compare them in the first place?....:)
On an entirely different note, these slides--indeed, the whole presentation--was meant for internal ATi employee consumption only. The nVidia .pdf was a sales document directed towards OEMs and produced for that purpose.
parhelia
28-Sep-2003, 19:33
[conspiracy mode on]
Anyone noticed that despite all the discussion about these slides, we've never actually seen the whole slide, so we still cannot comment if they're really out of context or not? We only saw what ATI claimed to be in the presentation, but we've never actually seen what was in it : no screenshot or any such things were given. It's just their words against NV's words. It could actually be yet another huge coverup operation.
The truth is elsewhere.
[/conspiracy mode off]
:)
Dave Baumann
28-Sep-2003, 20:04
I've got all the slides (as do a few others outside of the IHV's in question). ATI were incorrect when they said what was in the next slide, it was actually the slide after that...!
I've got all the slides (as do a few others outside of the IHV's in question). ATI were incorrect when they said what was in the next slide, it was actually the slide after that...!
Those untrustworthy bast#@$%# . :wink:
[conspiracy mode on]
Anyone noticed that despite all the discussion about these slides, we've never actually seen the whole slide, so we still cannot comment if they're really out of context or not? We only saw what ATI claimed to be in the presentation, but we've never actually seen what was in it : no screenshot or any such things were given. It's just their words against NV's words. It could actually be yet another huge coverup operation.
The truth is elsewhere.
[/conspiracy mode off]
:)
Heh...:) What is it that might require covering up?...Oh, I know...
I've got all the slides (as do a few others outside of the IHV's in question). ATI were incorrect when they said what was in the next slide, it was actually the slide after that...!
Ah, Ha! We got 'em now! "Next slide", indeed! Hmmmmph....
CorwinB
29-Sep-2003, 23:47
I've got all the slides (as do a few others outside of the IHV's in question). ATI were incorrect when they said what was in the next slide, it was actually the slide after that...!
Of course, all the dirty tactics of those cheating, lying bastitchs was on the slide in between... But they couldn't foil our super-senses. :P
3dilettante
30-Sep-2003, 03:59
Ooh, can I try on the conspiracy cap? :)
What if the slightly off slide number indicates that there were a few hasty "additions" to the original set of slides? With the amount of crud flying around, one can't be too paranoid.
What if the explanitory slides were provided by the mole who managed to get ATI's marketing plans to Nvidia in the first place? Has there been a critical failure in ATI's counterintelligence?
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