When will ATI start to lead instead of following ?

[crystalcube]

Does anybody else also get the same feeling ?
I was trying to build a linux based HTPC and thought that I will use my 8500 for it and upgrade my desktop's video card to 9800. Sounds good but ATI support for linux is quite poor and I end up buying 5200 because all I need from my HTPC is TV-out and nvidia has good support for linux ( as well as freebsd ). And if you look at ATI's site for linux support all the projects listed under linux seem to be dead.
Its just not the linux/freebsd support but look at the driver download site for ATI, its just the replica of nvidia's. I did pretty exhaustive search on net for any kind of support for ATI but its all bad and doesn't works well. In most of the forums there's only one answer "buy nvidia". I know most people will say linux is just a small fraction of user but there are users and ATI will be just loosing them.
And I have been thinking that although ATI is leading the benchmarks but they still dont have what it takes to be the leader.

btw regarding ATI & MS licensing deal for Xbox2
ATI is saying : Yeah we beat everyone
Nvidia is saying : been there done that ;)

[AndY1]

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=77eb2e4bfed58d0573533a9d278beaea&threadid=33703965

CATALYST maker
Am looking for some Linux users that want to beta test upcoming CATALYST. This time I am looking for people that own "powered by ATI" cards and run Linux.

Use my sig link to apply for beta program and make sure you put LINUX in the subject line of the email you sent out.

[CorwinB]

I know most people will say linux is just a small fraction of user but there are users and ATI will be just loosing them.
And I have been thinking that although ATI is leading the benchmarks but they still dont have what it takes to be the leader.


Yeah, and Linux is beating Windows in benchmarks and still doesn't have what it takes to be the leader either... :P

In most of the forums there's only one answer "buy nvidia".

Actually, that's not surprising considering the standard Linux newsgroup answer is "Stop using this PoS video card/email client/distrib/Web browser/shell and start using a *real* video card/email client/distrib/Web browser/shell, ie mine". I think on really advanced Linux newsgroups, they have bots to make those kind of answers. :)

[Mark]

Its just not the linux/freebsd support but look at the driver download site for ATI, its just the replica of nvidia's.
Funny that you think ATI is copying nVidia with that driver selection thing when they probably just copied any of the hundreds of other sites that have been doing the same thing since forever.

btw regarding ATI & MS licensing deal for Xbox2
ATI is saying : Yeah we beat everyone
Nvidia is saying : been there done that ;)
I guess we know where you're really coming from then...

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

Does anybody else also get the same feeling ?
I was trying to build a linux based HTPC and thought that I will use my 8500 for it and upgrade my desktop's video card to 9800. Sounds good but ATI support for linux is quite poor and I end up buying 5200 because all I need from my HTPC is TV-out and nvidia has good support for linux ( as well as freebsd ). And if you look at ATI's site for linux support all the projects listed under linux seem to be dead.
Its just not the linux/freebsd support but look at the driver download site for ATI, its just the replica of nvidia's. I did pretty exhaustive search on net for any kind of support for ATI but its all bad and doesn't works well. In most of the forums there's only one answer "buy nvidia". I know most people will say linux is just a small fraction of user but there are users and ATI will be just loosing them.

As someone else has pointed out above, ATI have just asked for Linux beta-testers, so I presume they have been working on *nix support, and that's coming very soon.


And I have been thinking that although ATI is leading the benchmarks but they still dont have what it takes to be the leader.

The last year at ATI begs to differ - they shipped the first DX9 card a year ago while Nvidia were faffing around before finally giving up on NV30. NV35 is still having problems, and ATI is eating into Nvidia market share and is actually a larger company financially (according to the latest stock figures)


btw regarding ATI & MS licensing deal for Xbox2
ATI is saying : Yeah we beat everyone
Nvidia is saying : been there done that ;)



Nvidia would say that because they lost the contract, and managed to bring in X-Box 1 under spec, over cost (IIRC), and it delayed the rest of their PC products, hurting the company.

Of course the way Nvidia have been lying and cheating left right and centre, it's no wonder they're saying the didn't want the contract anyway. It's just another indication of Nvidia's star being on the wane.

[crystalcube]

As someone else has pointed out above, ATI have just asked for Linux beta-testers, so I presume they have been working on *nix support, and that's coming very soon.


I know but thats the point I am trying to make that ATI does things quite slowly.



btw regarding ATI & MS licensing deal for Xbox2
ATI is saying : Yeah we beat everyone
Nvidia is saying : been there done that ;)



Nvidia would say that because they lost the contract, and managed to bring in X-Box 1 under spec, over cost (IIRC), and it delayed the rest of their PC products, hurting the company.


well the comment about xbox2 was just a joke.

For those people who know where I am really coming from...I doubt you will see my point. But you see ATI had a 6 month lead over Nvidia regarding DX9 part but today nvidia has 60% of DX9 market. And look now I am one of them but I am not going to use their part for DX9 at all. I was just trying to highlight this aspect. ATI might be very good at graphics tech right now but do they have the vision to take it to the masses ?

[crystalcube]

Actually, that's not surprising considering the standard Linux newsgroup answer is "Stop using this PoS video card/email client/distrib/Web browser/shell and start using a *real* video card/email client/distrib/Web browser/shell, ie mine".


Yep they can be too "linuxy" at times ;)


I think on really advanced Linux newsgroups, they have bots to make those kind of answers. :)

no doubt about that one ;)

jokes apart actually as far as open source is concerned they dont really like Nvidia , because of their closed source driver model. but then again what are the choices ?

hopefully ATI release kick ass catalyst for Linux and I will be able to upgrade soon .

[Hanners]

ATI might be very good at graphics tech right now but do they have the vision to take it to the masses ?

If getting your technology into two out of the three big next-generation consoles isn't 'taking your vision to the masses', I don't know what is.

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I know but thats the point I am trying to make that ATI does things quite slowly.




<shrug> they've been working on their Windows drivers. If you look at what has been happening at the ATi driver releases over the last year compared to the Nvidia driver releases, ATI are miles ahead.


For those people who know where I am really coming from...I doubt you will see my point. But you see ATI had a 6 month lead over Nvidia regarding DX9 part but today nvidia has 60% of DX9 market. And look now I am one of them but I am not going to use their part for DX9 at all. I was just trying to highlight this aspect. ATI might be very good at graphics tech right now but do they have the vision to take it to the masses ?

I'd like to know where you get the 60 percent figure from, considering DX9 cards have only been shipping from Nvdia in the last couple of months. And there is still a lot of debate as to whether those low end volume cards are even properly DX9 cards considering many DX9 features are far too slow to actually use except in sub-DX9 precisions or with a million Microsoft wavers.

I think ATI have shown they have what it takes from when Dave Orton arrived and the R300 shipped. They have made massive strides forwards, overtaking Nvdia and surprising everyone. ATI allow their products to speak for them, without the lying and cheating that Nvidia have been reduced to.

[Hanners]

I'd like to know where you get the 60 percent figure from, considering DX9 cards have only been shipping from Nvdia in the last couple of months. And there is still a lot of debate as to whether those low end volume cards are even properly DX9 cards considering many DX9 features are far too slow to actually use except in sub-DX9 precisions or with a million Microsoft wavers.

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030731084600.html

NVIDIA’s share among all DirectX 9.0-supporting graphics processors shipped skyrocketed to 60%, obviously, thanks to 70% share in the Value DirectX 9.0-compliant GPUs market. Even though its dollars share is lower, units share seems to be very important for the company.

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/video/display/20030731084600.html

NVIDIA’s share among all DirectX 9.0-supporting graphics processors shipped skyrocketed to 60%, obviously, thanks to 70% share in the Value DirectX 9.0-compliant GPUs market. Even though its dollars share is lower, units share seems to be very important for the company.

Hmm. There doesn't seem to be a direct source quoted, though it is implied to be Mercury Research. It doesn't seem to be reliable when:

"Last quarter, Mercury Research accounted for the entire 1.6 million nForce MCPs as “Integrated Desktop 3D Chipsets”, even though many of them did not have integrated graphics."

Of course, if you read a little more, it's all very open to interpretation. That 60 percent is for just this quarter, and is of units *shipped* not sold. Considering that Nvdia has just managed to get its DX9/pretend DX9 hardware out this quarter, it's no surpise that we see a lot of Nvidia units being shipped out to distributers. If we added up all the DX9 units shipped from ATI and Nvidia over the last year I think you'll find that Nvdia has not sold (or even shipped) 60 percent of all the DX9 hardware out there. The numbers quoted above simply do not refer to that, so you can't say that "Nvdia has 60 percent of the DX9 market" based on those figures.

And of course, if you belive those figures, it seems that Nvidia is sacrificing profit in order to get units out there. If that is "leading", it's probably not a lead that ATI wish to follow.

EDIT: By the same logic these figures mean that ATI shipped 100 percent of all DX9 hardware in Q4 02 and Q1 03, and 40 percent of all DX9 cards in Q2 03. Looks like it's Nvidia that's following rather than leading to me.

[WaltC]

....
btw regarding ATI & MS licensing deal for Xbox2
ATI is saying : Yeah we beat everyone
Nvidia is saying : been there done that ;)

Years ago the president of IBM's software division at the time (Gertsner? can't recall), when asked about upcoming OS's from M$ and what impact on OS/2 he foresaw as the result, snickered, and was quoted as saying, "Been there, done that."

When I read that I was stunned that this was to be IBM's attitude going forward with OS/2 development, and later was not at all surprised when OS/2 became an historical footnote (My three retail copies of the OS made good coasters for awhile...;))

Sometimes companies "come back, do it better," you know.

[Jima13]

http://www.xig.com/Pages/Atop/SummitBenchmarks-CARDS.html

If I had a 8500/9000 I'd just buy the damn drivers. :)

[Dio]

btw regarding ATI & MS licensing deal for Xbox2
ATI is saying : Yeah we beat everyone
Nvidia is saying : been there done that
<cough> GameCube? <cough>

methinks nvidia followed ATI into the console market.... :)

[Sxotty]

I just have to say congrats everyone for no flames, when I saw the topic I thought there would be anger and whatnot, but it seemed pretty good. I think ATI has pursued the consumer mindset of being a smaller company to apeal to the underdog mentality many have, ala AMD. Perhaps this is why people think they are small, but who knows.

[crystalcube]

<cough> GameCube? <cough>

methinks nvidia followed ATI into the console market.... :)

Wasn't Gamecube originally done by Artx , though ATI acquired Artx but well :)


I just have to say congrats everyone for no flames, when I saw the topic I thought there would be anger and whatnot, but it seemed pretty good.


Actually thats why I posted here instead of lets say on Rage3D. My point is not to flame but highlight my point. Although everbody is telling me I am wrong ;) but I feel I highlighted a valid point .


I think ATI has pursued the consumer mindset of being a smaller company to apeal to the underdog mentality many have, ala AMD. Perhaps this is why people think they are small, but who knows.


Maybe ... but I dont think they are small just slow to react to market. They always had comparable tech. but it took them long time to realise the importance of good drivers and how this can influence mindset. Now they have covered that area very well and you can see the impact. Would R300 made any impact if the driver of the same quality as the pre-catalyst days ?

[deflate]

btw regarding ATI & MS licensing deal for Xbox2
ATI is saying : Yeah we beat everyone
Nvidia is saying : been there done that ;)

I seem to remember NVIDIA actually saying "Well, we still wanted to do that and we don't like the fact that we aren't".

[cthellis42]

Maybe ... but I dont think they are small just slow to react to market. They always had comparable tech. but it took them long time to realise the importance of good drivers and how this can influence mindset. Now they have covered that area very well and you can see the impact. Would R300 made any impact if the driver of the same quality as the pre-catalyst days ?

Slower before, faster and it would seem more accurate than nVidia now. <shrugs> nVidia almost stumbled to death coming out of the gates, and it took them a while to get all their policies in line to really bear down and dethrone 3dfx and get to the position they are today. After getting there, they seem to be playing with more marketing shinnanigas than spending all that money as well just making killer tech, which seems like a very Microsoft way to go. (All all things considered, though it can really leverage your advantage, DON'T expect it to be approved of by the geek community. :P )

I tend to root for the underdog until they get about even, at which point I rather hope the companies stay about neck and neck--trading off positions once in a while--as that's the best situation for US! Hehe... All things considered, though, even while rooting for the likes of AMD and ATI to close ground, ATI seems to have REALLY gotten their shit together and closed the game despite my "help." :wink: Would they have gotten nearly as far without nVidia stumbling? No, but then nVidia's stumbing was a part of their own business handlings anyway, same as ATI's fumbling with drivers for years. Poor choices keep you in poor positions or cause you to lose ground. The public certainly is unpredictable, but then the OEM's are the meat of the market. There are lots of decisions that can be lauded, and lots of ways in which to screw up overall.

But hey, dems da breaks. <shrugs>

[Sxotty]

I think that Nvidia is really w/o a doubt behind ATi at the moment, but it will take sometime for the market to "acknowledge" it. By that time hopefully Nvidia will have better stuff out so that ATi will not run away with the lead. I honestly could see that happening unless the NV40 can compete better on a price/performance ratio than the NV35 can right now.

[cthellis42]

I don't think at all that nVidia is "behind" ATI. I think both companies are enormously invested in GPU tech, and we really won't be able to tell just what to expect from them from generation to generation. I think nVidia unfocused a bit this last round and concentrated on less important things and made a few poorer decisions, but anyone who things either of the companies "doomed" right now or incapable of redoubling their efforts in X section of the marketplace to regain ground and and just deliver excellence in general is pretty sillified. We can't judge the current fight based on just this last round of chip types, but nor can we lean too heavily on the extended past. This is one of the fastest-moving and fiercest competitions in ALL of the tech industry! It kinda plays out as it goes, and is rarely ever predictable.

[WaltC]

I don't think at all that nVidia is "behind" ATI.

Kind of an odd remark, seeing how nVidia's been clearly behind since the R300 shipped a year ago--unless you'd like to posit that nv25 wasn't "behind" R300 last year (which I doubt you'd do.)

Just taking a look at the pcbs, heatsinks and fans nVidia's had to use up to and including nv35 in relation to what ATi's been using with R3x0 is pretty revealing in itself. If the gpu was indeed on par with the vpu then you'd see similar reference design requirements for both. But since it isn't, nVidia's got to push up the MHz of its chips (by upping the voltage and clocking) which is why you see the differences in the pcbs, fans, and heatsinks. To me that's proof nVidia's still behind.

Then there's the 8x1 R3x0 organization compared with the 4x2 of nV35 (which is just like nv2x.) At best, in a condition where all pixels are multitextured it will be a draw, but since all software I'm aware of uses varying combinations of single and multitexturing, 8x1 will always have a performance advantage.

Then you could talk about fp24--and a few other other things. I think it's clear that nVidia is behind and has been for the last year. Even JHH, the nVidia CEO, admitted as much in his oft-quoted "hullucinogenic" remarks (which, with the advent of nv35, has prompted many to ask what he's been smoking...;))

I think both companies are enormously invested in GPU tech, and we really won't be able to tell just what to expect from them from generation to generation.

Which, unfortunately for nVidia and nv3x, simply illustrates very well the principle of "throwing good money after bad"--spending money is no guarantee you will best your competitors, let alone catch them.

I think nVidia unfocused a bit this last round and concentrated on less important things and made a few poorer decisions, but anyone who things either of the companies "doomed" right now or incapable of redoubling their efforts in X section of the marketplace to regain ground and and just deliver excellence in general is pretty sillified.

Indeed--this time last year the 'net was buzzing with the speculation that nv30 would trounce R3x0 handily...;) Companies like ATi and AMD have long had to endure silly "doomed" speculation, and I agree that it would be silly to say nVidia is "doomed." Rather, I think what is most likely is that nVidia and ATi will simply trade places, with nVidia moving into the second-string postition that ATi held for so long. Being numero 2 didn't doom ATi, and neither will it doom nVidia.

We can't judge the current fight based on just this last round of chip types, but nor can we lean too heavily on the extended past. This is one of the fastest-moving and fiercest competitions in ALL of the tech industry! It kinda plays out as it goes, and is rarely ever predictable.

True, but neither can we judge the current fight by empty speculation as to what the future holds....;) But if we judge the current fight by what is happening currently (over the last 12 months), ATi has definitely moved ahead, IMO.

[Dave Baumann]

There's a difference in being behing in this cycle and behind in term of general technology, R&D and direction.

[Quitch]

I certainly hope ATI is taking the lead... having heard how both companies intend to handle app optimisation (ATI seem to be heading away from it, while nVidia are all for more), I think it will be to the advantage of the consumer to have ATI drive the market for a bit.

The last thing we need is a situation where the new glide has taken over.

[digitalwanderer]

There's a difference in being behing in this cycle and behind in term of general technology, R&D and direction.
Do you feel that nVidia is ahead in terms of general technology, R&D, and direction? I kind of thought ATi was taking the ball and running with it, but I don't really know much about what is going on behind the scenes at nVidia lately. I truly doubt that they're really doing the circle-jerk I think they are....but for some reason they just aren't answering me e-mails again. :roll: (Piece-o-free-advice: Don't call PR people liars to their face, it seems to offend them. :| )

[Hanners]

Do you feel that nVidia is ahead in terms of general technology, R&D, and direction? I kind of thought ATi was taking the ball and running with it, but I don't really know much about what is going on behind the scenes at nVidia lately.

Well, I've heard it speculated a few times that what we saw in NV3x was the beggining of an architecture that wouldn't fully come into fruition until NV50, so from that point of view I suppose you could argue that nVidia are being more forward-thinking (from an outside point of view anyhow).

On the other hand, ATi have been talking up R500 for a long time now, so I have my doubts that they'll suddenly be left behind. I think both companies have a lot of good engineers, so it's going to be a tight race for quite a while to come.

[digitalwanderer]

Do you feel that nVidia is ahead in terms of general technology, R&D, and direction? I kind of thought ATi was taking the ball and running with it, but I don't really know much about what is going on behind the scenes at nVidia lately.

Well, I've heard it speculated a few times that what we saw in NV3x was the beggining of an architecture that wouldn't fully come into fruition until NV50, so from that point of view I suppose you could argue that nVidia are being more forward-thinking (from an outside point of view anyhow).
You're forgetting the "don't trust a bloody thing those lying nVidia PR cheeseballs say!" rule though Hanners. :roll: ;)

[cthellis42]

Kind of an odd remark, seeing how nVidia's been clearly behind since the R300 shipped a year ago--unless you'd like to posit that nv25 wasn't "behind" R300 last year (which I doubt you'd do.)

No, I'll admit quite handily that since R300 I'd give the props to ATi, but then again how many years before has nVidia led the way? Plenty of people have been using "leadership" in some kind of doomsaying way, which is mainly what I object to. They used it for 3dfx vs. others and they lost it, they used it against 3dfx and it came true, they continued to use it against ATi and they stepped forward this generation to say "what up, punk?" and kick some ass. 8) Basically, this part of the industry moves WAY faster than simple predictions can chart. For something ~7 years old, a staggering amount of flip-flopping has gone on.

Each advancement we gain a few more insights into the companies and their tech. The next step change (R360 vs. whatever nVidia puts out before NV40) we'll see if ATi properly mapped out their growth for this architecture or if they stretch too thin at the end and nVidia manages to pull ahead. The next major architecture change (R400 vs NV40) could be an entirely different show altogether, much like R300/NV30 was this time, and THAT will tell us even more.

So while I'll certainly give ATi the lead right now, leapfrogging is not uncommon, and no one is getting dusted. The fight is wildly shifting, but supported by two impressive companies that know their stuff and even after SEVERE screwing up nVidia hasn't been left in the dust--it's just the tarnish shows and their knees are a bit scabbed now. <smirks>

But there's ALWAYS far too much doomsaying going on, and last I recall Apple still exists, AMD hasn't been crushed, and ATi got its shit together and gave us a great show this year. Similarly, nVidia isn't going anywhere any time soon.

There's a difference in being behing in this cycle and behind in term of general technology, R&D and direction.

Do you feel that nVidia is ahead in terms of general technology, R&D, and direction? I kind of thought ATi was taking the ball and running with it, but I don't really know much about what is going on behind the scenes at nVidia lately. I truly doubt that they're really doing the circle-jerk I think they are....but for some reason they just aren't answering me e-mails again. :roll: (Piece-o-free-advice: Don't call PR people liars to their face, it seems to offend them. :| )

I think that's rather impossible to say, especially since "being ahead" doesn't guarantee you won't kneecap yourself either. But both companies are huge, have thousands of employees, major amounts of talent, and are irrevocably committed to this market, so I don't see any of them making quantum leaps above the other any time soon. I'm rather hoping the black eye nVidia got this round makes them redouble their effort in the tech direction and stop the silliness, but I don't care for the general attitude that's still been coming out of their house of late, so the snide person inside me is hoping they'll continue to get drubbed for a while until they cut it out. :P

[digitalwanderer]

I'm rather hoping the black eye nVidia got this round makes them redouble their effort in the tech direction and stop the silliness, but I don't care for the general attitude that's still been coming out of their house of late, so the snide person inside me is hoping they'll continue to get drubbed for a while until they cut it out. :P
Believe me, I can totally sympathize with that attitude. 8)

[cthellis42]

Believe me, I can totally sympathize with that attitude. 8)

After all, what could be wrong with the two biggest companies in a market doing business exactly the way I want them to, staying neck-and-neck and fiercely competitive so that we all get the most out of each of them for the least price? :wink:

[digitalwanderer]

Believe me, I can totally sympathize with that attitude. 8)

After all, what could be wrong with the two biggest companies in a market doing business exactly the way I want them to, staying neck-and-neck and fiercely competitive so that we all get the most out of each of them for the least price? :wink:
Yeah, but I'll settle for karma to hit nVidia with a reality bicht-slap too. :)

[WaltC]

There's a difference in being behing in this cycle and behind in term of general technology, R&D and direction.

Agreed, no question. However, my thought is that what has been evident over the last two product cycles for nVidia (if you consider 6 months to represent a cycle--which is probably not fair, but nevertheless is what nVidia maintains it does--nv30 & nv35) is of more interest than construing future possibilities for which there is no evidence at all. Yes, it is known that nVidia is working towards better products, just as the same thing is known about ATi. But a year ago when it was postulated that nv30 would crush R3x0, the same exact situation applied.

I certainly don't think it impossible for nVidia to regain the lead at some future date, and did not mean to imply that. It's just that at this time I think it is fair to state that nVidia is behind and has been for about a year. I see nVidia's chief problems as not being related to R&D, but rather as internal ones relating primarily to management--there appears to be a certain inflexibility within the company--or, lack of vision you might say--that is influencing everything the company is doing. What ATi has to worry about going forward is the same kind of hubris and complacency that has afflicted nVidia for a period of time long predating R3x0 last year. That's exactly why nv30 was no better than it was, IMO.

[digitalwanderer]

I certainly don't think it impossible for nVidia to regain the lead at some future date, and did not mean to imply that. It's just that at this time I think it is fair to state that nVidia is behind and has been for about a year. I see nVidia's chief problems as not being related to R&D, but rather as internal ones relating primarily to management--there appears to be a certain inflexibility within the company--or, lack of vision you might say--that is influencing everything the company is doing. What ATi has to worry about going forward is the same kind of hubris and complacency that has afflicted nVidia for a period of time long predating R3x0 last year. That's exactly why nv30 was no better than it was, IMO.
Damn it, you always are so eloquent and so good at making your point! :)

Total agreement, the problems at nVidia are a lot deeper than hardware right now. I think their hardware problems are a reflection of their corporate ones. :(

[YeuEmMaiMai]

anyone who thinks Nvidia is #1, I have a mirror that states "Objects in the mirror are dumber than they appear". It has been painfully obvious to everyone who can think straight that over the least few years ATi has been outdoing nVidia at every front except drivers. Since the Radeon their hardware has without a doubt been superior and over the last year the drivers have been exceptional.

I have an Intel built PC that is a PIII 850 with a R8500 in it I have another PC with an ECS K7S6A (SiS 745) AMD 1.8GHz Athlon XP and a 9500 Pro. Both PCs Run Windows 2K and I have the faster one partitioned so it runs 2K3 and 2K no video problems what so ever.

If games do not work right I find out why and do what is suggested.


Now with Nvidia cheating stealing and lying their way around, it is hurting the whole industry. Valve should have told nVIdia to stuff it where the sun does not shine as far as I am concerned since nVIdia cannot follow the rules or perform in the DX9.X arena..........

[Sxotty]

You know walt Nvidias problem may not be a lack of vision but an overabundance of it. If people get grandiose ideas they don't like to be told, "um sir... that really isn't feasible now" They want to hear oh wow great thinking sir, even if it runs them into the ground.