Used video games are the new software piracy

[green.pixel]

http://www.the-ghetto.org/content/used-video-games-the-new-software-piracy


Great article.

If the pay-to-own video game industry collapses in the next five years, do you know why it will be? It will be a combination of terrible business practices, out-of-control game development budgets, year-to-year sequels that are designed to be consumed like dish detergent, a total misunderstanding of the casual gaming demographic, and the use of motion controls and three-dimensional displays as a step sideways and not forward. It will not be because of used games.

They know it. And that’s why they’re after used video games. When your business model is collapsing, you control distribution. Whether it offers a better product or not, you control distribution.

[eastmen]

He trys really hard to push used games as some great boon for gamers letting us pay less for games. But you know what ? You can do that without buying used. You can buy new and still save tons of money. You just can't buy in the first month.

I think he also doesn't understand xbox live , your messages , friends list , gamer tag info , achivements are all stored on a server that cost ms money. Running/maintaining xbox live isn't free

He proceeds to bash yearly games. Obviously there is a market for them if gamers buy UFC year after year after year. Its the gamers fault for buying it and obviously if they buy UFC 2010 and then 2011 then that change is worth it to someone out there.

At the end of the day the software and the companys are fueled by people who need money to feed their familys. If used games are hurting their sales they will do their best to get rid of them.

I'm all for the end of used games if it means the age of DD is upon us. If it stays disc based then screw them.

[Acert93]

You just can't buy in the first month.

Of course if there were no used games price reduction would slow. Games on Demand on XBL is a good example where games there more often than not cost more than picking up a new disk, never mind a used one.

[eastmen]

Of course if there were no used games price reduction would slow. Games on Demand on XBL is a good example where games there more often than not cost more than picking up a new disk, never mind a used one.

PC has no used game market

Yet there are daily steam deals....... What you say does not compute. If you find the cost of the games to much then don't buy them , if the software doesn't sell then they will drop the price

[Acert93]

Steam doesn't have a used market, but physical PC media does (not to mention a huge piracy market). As for Steam sales, Steam is competition with digital outlets like Direct2Drive, the EA store, etc, brick and mortar sales, and yes, even the consoles.

Btw, if one of the companies goes completely digital with no physical disks the competition will eat their lunch unless they made a huge pricing power play.

[Davros]

Running/maintaining xbox live isn't free



No it could cost up to a single cent per user

[eastmen]

No it could cost up to a single cent per user

So you think keeping all of xbox live running and having it constantly updated with new features costs nothing ?


Do you think ESPN gives MS the ESPN channel for free ? Do you think the videos of gaming hints and other freebies costs ms nothing to produce ?

I don't doubt that its less than the $50 a person they charge per year , but it certianly isn't a single cent.

[Florin]

There are many other places on the Internet that offer stuff like that for free, on an advertising model. It's the Internet way.

MS cost is already additionally covered by the Live subscription, so this is a complete non-argument..

[Davros]

I was referring to the free service(games for windows live) as ive no experience with the paid for service

I know your a big fan of these services but trust me on this sooner or later you will get screwed (it happened to music users)
games that need a service to work, do you really think these services will be run indefinitely
in fact its sort of happened with e.a they relesed many games that require e.a to run a server for multiplayer to work (no third party servers/user created servers) and in some cases in less than 12 months after release they were shut down now. many users are stuck with games with no working multiplayer

[eastmen]

I was referring to the free service(games for windows live) as ive no experience with the paid for service

I know your a big fan of these services but trust me on this sooner or later you will get screwed (it happened to music users)
games that need a service to work, do you really think these services will be run indefinitely
in fact its sort of happened with e.a they relesed many games that require e.a to run a server for multiplayer to work (no third party servers/user created servers) and in some cases in less than 12 months after release they were shut down now. many users are stuck with games with no working multiplayer

I'm not following you .

If I buy a console at some point it will end up no longer working. The option is to go out and buy another one correct ? But what if we are talking about 10 years later ? Few consoles are produced a decade after release.

So if said console is no longer made perhaps i can find them used. But what if I can't ? What do I do ?

The software I have these discs for are now just costers.

The same can happen with online services sure , I agree but its no diffrent than any other way


Steam has been around for a decade and it shows no sign of going away. xbox live has been around for a decade also and isn't going anywhere . Both are only growing.

I don't see the love for physical media , i really don't.

With DD I no longer have to devote space in my house for the storage of said items. Okay well perhaps i need the hardrive space , but my 2TB drive can hold hundreds of games and takes up little space , perhaps the size of 5 dvds + cases.

To devote space in my house for 400 dvds + cases is alot of wasted space that can be used for other things. THe same goes with movies.

I've now ripped all my dvds and blurays to mpeg 4 . I have a amd e-350 with 8 gigs of ram and 4 2TB hardrives filled with my music and movies and I will never look back now. i can stream them all around my house with no problems, load them to my laptop or phone and watch them on the go. The best part is that my htpc is the size of my reciever. I put all my music and dvds in storage bins in the attic and i got rid of the dvd holder unit that took up a good portion of a wall in my place. I now have much more room and i have less things making clutter and collecting dust .

[Svensk Viking]

xbox live has been around for a decade also and isn't going anywhere . Both are only growing.



Tell that to those who used Live on Xbox 1 and bought DLC

And regarding services, the cost for Live if anything makes me rather get a PS4 next gen(well, if they don't make it pay to play too)...I don't pay for Live either way, so it's not as if I would miss any of those things Microsoft offers that Sony doesn't

[Blazkowicz]

PC has no used game market

Yet there are daily steam deals....... What you say does not compute. If you find the cost of the games to much then don't buy them , if the software doesn't sell then they will drop the price

there was a used game markets for the PC some time ago.. when games used to come in an actual box, with a manual, CD cases or floppies, a funny wheel of copy protection etc.

piracy was very widespread but at least running a legit game copy was not *dangerous* with trojan copy protection, game tied to an online account and authentication server, etc.

lose your steam account?, then you lose all your games. I lost mine. (no big $$$ lost
thanksfully)

the nail in the coffin for me was the Crysis 2 demo. after downloading 1.5GB and installing it you have to login, then after a few minutes of configuring your keys you go to the multiplayer game menu and get.. nada, nothing. can't even get any glimpse of the graphics and performance. the demo was dead in the water a few days after its release :shock: .

I've become a full time linux user shortly after that!
I don't like the ongoing ipod/iphone dystopia either.

[Davros]

First it was piracy
now used game sales
next it will be "people are playing our game twice and we arnt being paid"
its all leading to the holy grail of the game industry pay to play

The games industry needs to stfu they have the most favourable operating environment of any industry ever.
If I was to offer the same environment to the car industry the would make the day an industry wide holiday named in my honour, c.e.o's would dance in the street
Imagine if they could attach any condition they please just by putting it in a text file and at the same time saying "you have no rights whatsoever" "we are not liable in any way shape or form for anything"
and they could sell their product in any condition they see fit to.
the software industry have all this and a lot of customers who not only dont care that they get ripped off with every purchase, but will defend them for doing so. Is that enough for them? are they happy? like hell they are.

If I was a politician in charge first order of business would be to ban eula's. they are just a device to make the customer lose their rights and for the industry to get out of their responsibilities.
my software never came with a eula, never needed one, I never had any intention of robbing my customers of their rights .

[green.pixel]

not to mention a huge piracy market

Cut the BS (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/05/file-sharers-are-content-industrys-largest-customers.ars) pls.

[Acert93]

Apples-and-Oranges. Let me know when they compare those numbers to a platform with a less significant piracy issue and we can look at sales then.

[Dr Evil]

Cut the BS (http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/05/file-sharers-are-content-industrys-largest-customers.ars) pls.

That paper doesn't try to create causality like you want to see it.

Note that no causal relationship is implied
here. Aficionados of music, games or films will typically buy more, get into
related products more but also download more.

What that can mean just as well is that there are these mega "file sharing" users, who get to have huge amounts of the product while buying only little bit more than light users. The fact that they are bringing more revenue than some people who never "share files" and rarely buy games (57% bought a game during the past 12 months) is not a proof that piracy doesn't hurt the industry.

This doesn't add credibility:

A notable finding is that a large number of file sharers are unable to say
what method or technology they use for downloading, e.g. P2P, Usenet,
newsgroups, FTP address. Most file sharers said they only engaged in
downloading and did not upload. This would seem improbable as most P2P
programs upload automatically. It seems likely that many file sharers are
unaware that they are uploading. A mere one in twenty file sharers admit to
adding new uploads themselves.

I didn't read the whole paper, so you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the impression that in order to qualify as a "file sharer" you've had to have downloaded one file (music, movie, or a game) during the last 12 months (prior to the study, which this paper is based on) to qualify as a "file sharer" and then uses that as a base for everything.

That's not a good base for your arguments. There should be distinction between different uses of file sharing. Just because you donwloaded a Britney Spears single 12 months ago shouldn't qualify you as file sharer in the games section. The paper also states that 75% of file sharers think that games should cost 7€ a piece and while that would probably be somewhat possible to satisfy your indi loving needs, it is something that likely isn't going to be possible with the big publishers on their biggest titles.

[Davros]

it is something that likely isn't going to be possible with the big publishers on their biggest titles.

I think it is, according to google mw5 had 650million in sales in the first 5 days, they easily made 10x the development cost

[Dr Evil]

37OWL7AzvHo

Ok so it could be possible, but really dumb for one publisher on 1 game.

[function]

If I buy a console at some point it will end up no longer working. The option is to go out and buy another one correct ? But what if we are talking about 10 years later ? Few consoles are produced a decade after release.

So if said console is no longer made perhaps i can find them used. But what if I can't ? What do I do ?

If you can't find an old system you haven't looked!

All my stuff from the 1980s works fine, even the tape based stuff. If any of the old systems break I can go out and buy another. A second hand NES or Master System or 2600 won't even cost you much unless your an impatient "buy it now" kinda chap.

The software I have these discs for are now just costers.

In reality it won't be, because you'll have no trouble getting a replacement system for anything other than the limited numbers stuff like the Neo Geo (and even then you can get it, you just pay more).

But even if for some hypothetical reason you couldn't, you could sell the games (potentially for lots of money) to someone else because the games aren't tied through DRM to a unique device or user.

[Davros]

Ok so it could be possible, but really dumb for one publisher on 1 game.

would you like more examples where games recouped more than 10x the development cost ;)

And that may be where some of the problem lies. When a company can come up with an idea knock up a quick demo (1 room in the case of bioshock) and then receive upwards of 20million towards development, is that really good for the industry ?

[Dr Evil]

would you like more examples where games recouped more than 10x the development cost ;)

Yes I would :) I can imagine there being a few, but not too many. Percentage wise a miniscule amount of games. 10x is huge.


And that may be where some of the problem lies. When a company can come up with an idea knock up a quick demo (1 room in the case of bioshock) and then receive upwards of 20million towards development, is that really good for the industry ?

Well I really liked Bioshock and I quess it did pretty good, but I don't know what the industry needs. I think AMD and nVidia should start making games and quit relying solely on others to create demand for their products.

[green.pixel]

@Dr.Evil:

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?p=1535194#post1535194
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus.ars
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy
http://www.mcvuk.com/news/41259/Nintendo-We-cant-blame-piracy-for-DS-drops
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_158/5045-Piracy-and-the-Underground-Economy

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2008/10/08/endwar-delayed-because-piracys-killing-pc/
But what we want – what we want so much that our sides ache and our foreheads pulse – is for the truth to be at the centre of this discussion. We want people who make these decisions, who give comments like this, to present the facts and figures that back up their statements.

We want to see the demonstrable evidence for the harm piracy has on sales. Because if it’s true, then yes, action needs to be taken. But if it isn’t (and history suggests it very well might not be – the most successful formats in the last 30 years have always been the most pirated, with the DS currently proving this on a dramatic scale), then untold damage is being done to the PC platform by claims like this.

Even EA said that a download isn't a lost sale:
http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1223787&postcount=59
Electronic Arts says that it understands how an illegally downloaded copy is not, in any way, a copy that was lost as a sale to the company. Mariam Sughayer, who is working for the corporate communications department of EA, says that “Stepping aside from the whole issue of DRM, people need to recognize that every BitTorrent download doesn’t represent a successful copy of a game, let alone a lost sale”. Understanding this, the company is getting ready to shift its approach so that it rewards the customer rather than punishing everyone for the sins of pirates.



If you have similar/better studies and articles for games and everything else, post them.


Here's a few for music:
http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20040520/0221218_F.shtml
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2009/apr/21/study-finds-pirates-buy-more-music
http://www.badscience.net/2009/06/home-taping-didnt-kill-music/
http://www.wired.com/listening_post/2007/10/trent-reznor-on/


You can browse techdirt on various piracy-related stuff.
http://www.techdirt.com/blog/?tag=piracy

Apples-and-Oranges. Let me know when they compare those numbers to a platform with a less significant piracy issue and we can look at sales then.

So, sales can only or mostly be dependant on piracy? It surely can't be the expectations/standards of people on different platforms buying them, how successful the marketing (http://forum.beyond3d.com/showpost.php?p=1454219&postcount=29)/advertizing brainwashing (http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcfour/documentaries/features/century_of_the_self.shtml) campaigns are on the "consumers" (being typically dumb, lazy, ignorant, gullible and easily marketible, especially on consoles), and lots of other factors. Right, right?

Q: A lot of the time those third party titles were cross-platform, but that partnership marketing almost creates the impression they're just for the Xbox 360, and a decent proportion of consumers probably wouldn't know that they're not - how important is that to you?

Chris Lewis: Well, I couldn't have answered it any better than you've just described in the question. It's good to hear you say it, because I think you're right, and we've been very proud of that work. We should also never assume that consumers know what's exclusive and what's cross-platform, but the key is that people know it plays best on Xbox 360, and the price point that we're talking about at the tail end of those ads makes it great, affordable value - and they know where to go and get it.

I think the combination of those brand ads, whether they be product-specific ads or not, we've always tried to hang those ads with a clear message of price and availability. It works very well, and we'll continue to do that.
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/chris-lewis-part-two

[Dr Evil]

If you have similar/better studies and articles for games and everything else, post them.

Listen I've never said anything about download = lost sale, actually I've argued against that in the past, or said how large part the current situation in PC gaming is due to piracy, but the bottom line is that when stealing something is really easy/effortless and the risk of any kind of punishment is really low combined with the fact that the object of stealing has significant entertainment and dollar value, you will have a situation where opportunity makes a thief. A lot of them.

Just because piracy numbers don't translate directly to lost sales, or the fact that it would be really hard to quantify the exact effects of it, don't in any way cloud the fact that piracy, when all things considered is bad for the publisher/dev that makes a game despite some benefits at few points, like more visibility for the title and potentially bigger userbase for the sequel etc.

The case where people claim that plus sides of piracy equals or exceed the negatives does not make any sense, except maybe in some isolated situations.

Is there still enough of an ecosystem for thriwing PC gaming? Maybe, but someone should do something for it and I think it should be the current PC component makers like AMD and nVidia, they are the ones who need to sell gaming hardware, maybe Intel could do something as well...I don't see any other way for high budget PC-gaming to rise again. Indi is fine and all, but it and high tech machinery doesn't make sense.

[green.pixel]

The case where people claim that plus sides of piracy equals or exceed the negatives does not make any sense, except maybe in some isolated situations.

You can't claim that at all.


Is there still enough of an ecosystem for thriwing PC gaming? Maybe, but someone should do something for it and I think it should be the current PC component makers like AMD and nVidia, they are the ones who need to sell gaming hardware, maybe Intel could do something as well...I don't see any other way for high budget PC-gaming to rise again. Indi is fine and all, but it and high tech machinery doesn't make sense.

You are too much fixated on bug budget tech-pushing, usually due to their nature mass market/lcd-friendly, games. That's your main problem. You don't play games just/mostly for the super flashy, glossy, shiny stuff, don't you? I wouldn't want to touch CoD or Killzone or Gears of War with a ten foot pole. But I'm also pretty sure that you average XBL dudebro wouldn't want to get near Natural Selection or Red Orchestra or Quake Live.


Take Crysis 2 for example.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26855582&postcount=105
What used to be high on the list of things to get right? Ask valve they have explained it a hundred times over in interviews over the years.

Things like:
- solid netcode and hit detection
- intuitive yet feature rich interface
- tactile feedback (be it from the hit sound in quake 3, the headshot animation in cs, force feedback making steering loose if your wheels lose grip or whatever)
- removing as many small frustrations as possible through extensive QA testing (see how many frustrations you come across in portal, especially repeating ones, you can cut off your fingers and still count them on one hand).
-Making player models be easily recognisable and distinguishable and have a good contrast with their surroundings (think tf2 player models and color palette, cs models, quake 3 models, rtcw models and surroundings).
-Pixel perfect jumping accuracy in platformers
-no input lag in fps, racing games or platformers

Again, these have all moved to the very bottom of the scale.
Yet they are what makes a game truely effortless to play, and they are a prereq to enjoying it.

All of these have taken a backseat this gen to graphics, 'cool factor' and evening out the playing field so everyone can get a gold star and be a winner.

There is nothing wrong with change or evolution, but you can't lose sight of the basics while making these changes.
And games are suffering heavily from just that.

Crysis 2 is pretty much a golden example of this.
Super flashy graphics, yet it won't let you just bind a button to throw a grenade?
Net code and hit detection are a disaster; Input lag, mouse accel, mouse smoothing: you name it crysis has it.
Bad IQ,narrow fov and no contrast in background design means you are fighting the visuals to locate and track enemies rather than fighting the enemies themselves.
Akward as hell slide controls, delay on the super jump because you have to keep the button pressed down etc etc.

Crysis 2 is just one example, most halfway recent games have several problems out of the list.

There is a very good reason why cs still has 50.000 players on simultaneously at pretty much any time of day, all day, everyday.
It's not because people like the graphics or don't eventually get a bit bored of the game.

[Dr Evil]

You can't claim that at all.

I can and I did. I don't count things like nice experiences for some poor college boy or anything in developing countries as positives in this context though. I mean money in western countries for publishers and devs, I want that to be clear.

You can debate how much or little harm piracy does, but the end result will always be negative.

And it doesn't even matter, because even without real lost sales, no one is going to just watch idly by when 90% of people playing your game aren't paying. They either try to make it stop or move elsewhere, which are the two things that are happened.

I don't want to start another argument about game quality etc., but I'l just say that 90% of games I play are story driven single player games or strategy games. I like games with a great story and like to immerse myself in a all kind of different settings. I don't play multiplayer games basically at all and something like Quake Live is as far from how I want to spend my time as I can think. If I want to play mindless reaction based skill games, I play badminton with my friends IRL.

[hoho]

You can debate how much or little harm piracy does, but the end result will always be negative.I know tons of pirates that have bought actual game after pirating it and seeing it's good. Loads of games not having any meaningful demo versions "help" in that regard. Though I have yet to hear anyone that had bought an actual copy of a game from some source where money would go to developers after they already bought a pre-owned copy.

In that sense pirating benefits devs more than game re-selling.

[Dr Evil]

Yeah I can sort of see that piracy for demo purposes can lead to sales. That's a valid point, however I'm pretty sure you have also seen situations where someone completes a good pirated game and doesn't buy it.

[hoho]

Of course there are those people but they generate exactly as much revenue for the devs as buyers of used games: zero.

[Dr Evil]

I'm not a huge fan of used games either, but I think trading in a used game is almost always used as a currency for a new game + it was already bought. But yeah some copies can trade hands over 10 times.

[eastmen]

there was a used game markets for the PC some time ago.. when games used to come in an actual box, with a manual, CD cases or floppies, a funny wheel of copy protection etc.

Yes it was along time ago , here in the states i haven't seen it in over a decade. Mabye even more so , it was dead back in 1998 when I was still in highschool.


piracy was very widespread but at least running a legit game copy was not *dangerous* with trojan copy protection, game tied to an online account and authentication server, etc.

lose your steam account?, then you lose all your games. I lost mine. (no big $$$ lost
thanksfully)

Why would you loose your steam account. If you take proper care there shouldn't be a problem.

the nail in the coffin for me was the Crysis 2 demo. after downloading 1.5GB and installing it you have to login, then after a few minutes of configuring your keys you go to the multiplayer game menu and get.. nada, nothing. can't even get any glimpse of the graphics and performance. the demo was dead in the water a few days after its release :shock: .

and it sucks , but then wait for the game to drop in price , it happens on the pc in months

I've become a full time linux user shortly after that!
I don't like the ongoing ipod/iphone dystopia either.

Its the way things are moving.

I had a huge amount of wall space devoted to shelving for my dvd collection of 2,120 movies. I have since ripped everything worth a darn to my server . I was able to recover 90% of my shelf space by taking those dvds and boxing them up in the attic . My gf is extremely happy and i have gained more space in my living room area.

I wish i could get rid of the consoel games as i could clear up even more space .


With data storage becoming cheaper and cheaper this is the way everything will work. Its why you have to watch what services you go with as you might end up loosing money , however its no diffrent than chosing hd dvd over bluray or beta over vhs .

I'm sticking with ms and the zune stuff , the zune pass works really well and the zune software works great across my pc , laptop and xbox . Some might like apple and itunes and some others may pick sony.

However the future is moving towards files on home servers and the cloud where you can acess it as much as you want

[Blazkowicz]

Why would you loose your steam account. If you take proper care there shouldn't be a problem.

I don't know maybe someone cracked my weak password or something.

[eastmen]

I don't know maybe someone cracked my weak password or something.

hopefully no one breaks into your house and takes your systems ?

[hoho]

Account recovery works pretty well. Recovering stolen physical items, not so good.

[Blazkowicz]

my mom did recover a gamecube that dumb kids had stolen :).
but I admit my steam account was peculiar, four-digit account number, based on a long lost serial number for the original half-life and nothing bought from my credit card. the serial is on a crashed hard drive in a landfill somewhere :)
a friend did buy me a "gift" game, that's when I found out the account was stolen.

my fault for cheaping out but still. buying back everything (hl, dmc, tfc, cs 1.6 and dod) would be several tens of euros :)

[green.pixel]

I know tons of pirates that have bought actual game after pirating it and seeing it's good. Loads of games not having any meaningful demo versions "help" in that regard.

Yeah, I've done done that. And there is this (http://74.200.65.90/showpost.php?p=1310629&postcount=58) as well:

I know several people who always DL the pirated versions even though they have the sealed box copy sitting in a closet simply cause they don't want all the CP junk.

[Mintmaster]

I think it is, according to google mw5 had 650million in sales in the first 5 days, they easily made 10x the development costI suppose you think entering the lottery is a gold mine too, since the winners earn 1 million times the investment cost.

[Davros]

Nope, just pointing out that cheaper games are possible

[green.pixel]

Nope, just pointing out that cheaper games are possible

Successful games are successful regardless of their budget level and/or how much they are pirated/rented/bought used.

Big pubs wouldn't want to exit the blockbusterization race because they have a strong incentive to raise/keep the barriers to entry high and keep smaller companies from entering the competition with them.

That said, I honestly dont know how can CoD cost $40 to $50 million to make each year. That has to be overbloated as hell.

[Davros]

Thats the cocaine and hookers for staff parties :)

[tritosine5G]

Thats the cocaine and hookers for staff parties :)

2010's is the new 80's !:wink: